Lumberton
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Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:14 pm

From AW&ST. Could these be Chinese built? So far, no reaction from Australia or Singapore (at least that I could find).

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ers%20Plus%20F-16s&channel=defense

Quote:
BEIJING — Indonesia intends to acquire 180 Sukhoi Flankers and also to buy Lockheed Martin F-16s, Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro says, setting out plans for a massive expansion of the Southeast Asian country’s air combat force.

If Indonesia is serious about buying 180 Flankers, then Canberra will almost certainly fund the Royal Australian Air Force’s plan for 100 Lockheed Martin F-35s, says Andrew Davies, an analyst at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute. Until now, there was a significant chance that Australia would buy fewer F-35s.

The Sukhoi fleet will be built up by 2024, with 18 aircraft in each of 10 squadrons, Purnomo says. F-16s will replace BAE Systems Hawks, the government’s Antara news agency says in a report carrying Purnomo’s statement.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:54 pm

Interest..... I would expect the RAAF to increase its order of F/A-18Fs, too. They could still reduce their order for the F-35A if they consider buying some F-15SEs.
 
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kanban
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:27 pm

180 Flankers??? what the heck for??? or is the product so maintenance prone and the parts supply so poor that one needs that many to keep 30% available?
 
cmb56
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:38 pm

I don't care how many pilots you have if you don't have the engineering staff to keep them airworthy and combat ready the best technology in the world is useless.
 
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:39 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 2):
180 Flankers??? what the heck for??? or is the product so maintenance prone and the parts supply so poor that one needs that many to keep 30% available?

That makes for some awefully expensive "cann" birds. What kind of threat does Indonesia feel is present to justify that kind of weapons buildup? And what is the threat from Indonesia that would cause Australia to build up their defenses in response? Has there been animosity between those two nations that would justify the mutual defense expansion?
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cpd
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:06 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 2):
180 Flankers??? what the heck for???

That's my thought as well. Who do they feel so threatened by that they need that many planes. Or more directly, who are they going to attack?

If they wish to do this, then it'd be only appropriate for Australia to push very strongly for the F22 Raptor, and large numbers of them in response (along with keeping the F-111 on for longer, and refurbishing them). F35 is just not adequate.

It would be utter madness to sit by and do nothing with that kind of air-force power next door. Prudence demands that we also arm ourselves up very heavily so we can adequately 'observe' the other side.

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 4):
Has there been animosity between those two nations that would justify the mutual defense expansion?

Not in my recent memory, but there was that intervention in Timor Leste that I think caused some rather major headaches for Indonesia. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a few people high up that are still quite annoyed by that.

[Edited 2010-09-30 17:11:57]

[Edited 2010-09-30 17:13:04]
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:21 am

The reason they are doing it is because Obama is president and he wont do anything to stop them. Do you think the previous administration would have offered them the F-16?

Quoting cpd (Reply 5):
If they wish to do this, then it'd be only appropriate for Australia to push very strongly for the F22 Raptor, and large numbers of them in response (along with keeping the F-111 on for longer, and refurbishing them). F35 is just not adequate.

Ok you do know that the F-35 and even the F-18 Superhornet can handle the flankers right? Maybe not in the numbers an F-22 but both are still very capable aircraft against the Flanker

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Interest..... I would expect the RAAF to increase its order of F/A-18Fs, too. They could still reduce their order for the F-35A if they consider buying some F-15SEs.

They dont need the F-15se to handle the indonesian airforce, the vermont air nation gaurd can handle the indonesian airforce. Although I always thought that Australia could have used a version of the F-15 but not needed to compete with indonesia.
 
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cpd
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:50 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
Ok you do know that the F-35 and even the F-18 Superhornet can handle the flankers right? Maybe not in the numbers an F-22 but both are still very capable aircraft against the Flanker

But the F22 makes a much stronger statement.

Australia rejected the F15 already (I remember the promo image of one in RAAF scheme), so it's unlikely we'll see one in the future.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:30 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
But the F22 makes a much stronger statement.

It would, but that option is off the table--permanently.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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kanban
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:08 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
but that option is off the table--permanently.

as permanent as anything subject to congressional review... change the mix in congress or other external considerations, and it becomes doable again...
 
Lumberton
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:48 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 9):
as permanent as anything subject to congressional review.

The only problem with that is that it was Gates and the White House that pushed for the line to close, not Congress. Changing the "mix" in Congress won't alter that fact and in a dismal budget environment; when all the heavy lifting has been done on killing at least one program it won't be resurrected.

This is one case to which I'm quite confident in saying that the "never say never" rule does NOT apply.  Wink

[Edited 2010-10-01 09:01:29]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:29 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
This is one case to which I'm quite confident in saying that the "never say never" rule does NOT apply.

I wouldn't say that to loudly. Stranger things have happened. If keeping the LM line of F-22s open and keeping their employees and suppliers working, then anything is possible. That includes the RAAF buying some F-15C/Ds Eagles and F-15Es Mudhens. The F-15E comes the closest to replacing the F-111C/G capabilities. Of course the RAAF could bring back the F-111Gs and cancel the scheduled retirement of the F-111C.
 
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:34 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
The reason they are doing it is because Obama is president and he wont do anything to stop them. Do you think the previous administration would have offered them the F-16?

Well Reagan sold them F16s when they had a military dictator, they have a half passable multiparty democracy now so why shouldn't we sell them F16s again???

The better question is can they really afford these planes , and can the Australians afford a response. I would say no to both, especially the latter.
 
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kanban
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:10 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Stranger things have happened.

didn't Reagan also restart the B-1 or was it the C-5 line... ?
 
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cpd
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:18 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 12):
why shouldn't we sell them F16s again???

Because it's just not a very good idea for a number of reasons that should be quite obvious. For the same reason we shouldn't have given training to their special forces (who then terrorised innocent people). The country also has huge problems with insurgency from groups like JI - so it should get those under control first.

Quoting kanban (Reply 9):
as permanent as anything subject to congressional review... change the mix in congress or other external considerations, and it becomes doable again...

Exactly right. If it makes money and keeps people in jobs, it's worth exploring the sale to reliable allies (such as Australia).

Quoting trex8 (Reply 12):
an the Australians afford a response.

I think we probably could if needed. It'd also give the government a card to play against the conservative opposition. If the conservatives oppose the spending, the government can paint them as being weak on national security and caving in to the radical anti-war movement.  

This is one case where a bit of good old fashioned massive overkill would be quite good. Just as the old F-111 was.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Of course the RAAF could bring back the F-111Gs and cancel the scheduled retirement of the F-111C.

The worst problem here is when a decision is made, the retirement and scrapping is usually done with indecent haste. The powers that be never usually like to make embarrassing backdowns on major policy decisions.

[Edited 2010-10-02 19:23:58]
 
trex8
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:12 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
Exactly right. If it makes money and keeps people in jobs, it's worth exploring the sale to reliable allies (such as Australia).

Reliable allies like ones whose FM says publicly if the US is fighting China over Taiwan , don't count on us??? Somehow that wasn't just a slip of the tongue. Canberra seems very reliable when there is no real threat to the the Australian mainland , when the PLA could wipe Sydney and every other urban area of Oz off the face of the earth then suddenly all that bravado and loyalty seems to dissipate!
 
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:24 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 4):
That makes for some awefully expensive "cann" birds. What kind of threat does Indonesia feel is present to justify that kind of weapons buildup?

If you look at the Australian build up of late the reason for Indonesia buying more kit could be justified.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 12):
and can the Australians afford a response. I would say no to both, especially the latter.

Considering the recent big ticket purchases in Australia recently 3 x Destroyers, 2 x LHD's, 24 x F18, 60 x M1A1, plus other programs under consideration Collins II (possibly doubling ther fleet to 12), ANZAC II, and the likely purchase of a 4th destroyer and maybe a 3rd LHD, it's pretty obvious Australia that Australia has the funds.
 
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cpd
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 15):
Reliable allies like ones whose FM says publicly if the US is fighting China over Taiwan , don't count on us???


Honestly, the foreign minister is just that, a foreign minister and no longer has much power to do anything. In fact, nobody has any power to do anything in this parliament at the moment.

I don't know quite what brought on that anti-Australian rant. Perhaps it might be better said in front of our forces who are fighting alongside yours in Afghanistan and suffering lots of casualties, or better still, in front of the families of those who have died..

[Edited 2010-10-03 15:37:26]
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:59 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 17):
Honestly, the foreign minister is just that

And the Indonesian defence minister is just that, too. This is just not going to happen.
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HaveBlue
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:31 am

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
They dont need the F-15se to handle the indonesian airforce, the vermont air nation gaurd can handle the indonesian airforce.

That line had me laughing out loud for real! That was funny  
Quoting kanban (Reply 13):
didn't Reagan also restart the B-1 or was it the C-5 line... ?

Reagen brought back the B-1A that Carter cancelled as the B-1B. He had nothing to do with the C-5 line afaik.
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trex8
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:51 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 17):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 15):
Reliable allies like ones whose FM says publicly if the US is fighting China over Taiwan , don't count on us???


Honestly, the foreign minister is just that, a foreign minister and no longer has much power to do anything. In fact, nobody has any power to do anything in this parliament at the moment.

Downer went to Beijing and spouted something which Howard had to immediately back track on publicly. FMs do not go overseas on official trips and say things in public unless they are loosing their minds or its policy. Take your pick.
 
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:44 pm

Quoting trex8 (Reply 20):
Downer went to Beijing and spouted something which Howard had to immediately back track on publicly. FMs do not go overseas on official trips and say things in public unless they are loosing their minds or its policy

It might be worth noting that neither FM Downer nor PM Howard have had any influence over Aus Foriegn policy for 3 years now... longer than the current US administration!
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:45 pm

Back in the 1960s, under Sukarno, there existed a movement in Indonesia, which wanted to unite all countries with Malayan based languages (Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, Philippines) under Indonesian leadership to form a South-East asian superpower. The fact that the other countries did not want to join Indonesia did not detract Sukarno and his government from their goals and the Indonesian army started invading parts of Brunei and the Malaysian part of Borneo, as well as causing sabotage in Singapore.
Malaysia and Brunei asked their former colonial power UK for assistance. A joint Malaysian / British expeditionary corps managed to beat back the Indonesian units in Borneo. The whole thing ended when Sukarno was overthrown by General Suharto.
For more information see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maphilindo

I wonder if this ideology still has followers?

Jan
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trex8
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:48 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 21):
Quoting trex8 (Reply 20):
Downer went to Beijing and spouted something which Howard had to immediately back track on publicly. FMs do not go overseas on official trips and say things in public unless they are loosing their minds or its policy

It might be worth noting that neither FM Downer nor PM Howard have had any influence over Aus Foriegn policy for 3 years now... longer than the current US administration!

True but when they were in power and made these comments they ran the shots and do you think Rudd or Gallard is going to be less friendly to Beijing than Howards more conservative government, especially Rudd who was a real sinophile, possibly the most simophile and China savvy Australian national leader ever???

The point I am making is that while Australia is a great US ally, it has its own national interests which may not align with the US as this situation shows. If Clinton or Powell had traveled to Beijing and told Tokyo or Seoul, there may be issues with China where they shouldn't count on the US's help in a fight against China, this wouldn't give the ROK and Japan government pause to think about their true relationship with the US? Downers comments were probably meant to be given in private to the PRC leaders but it shows where the Australian government policy was at that time. The fact that they would even think about it, while perfectly understandable from an Australian national interest viewpoint, points to the fallacy that old allies will always be true allies in the future. Everyone is out for number one only.

Quoting cpd (Reply 17):
I don't know quite what brought on that anti-Australian rant. Perhaps it might be better said in front of our forces who are fighting alongside yours in Afghanistan and suffering lots of casualties, or better still, in front of the families of those who have died..

I apologize if you consider it a rant but if the number of casualties is the sole criteria for how fancy the toy is that the US should sell , the F22s should be sold to the French and Germans who have had double the casualties in Afghanistan than Australia, heck the Danes and Latvians on a per capita population basis should be getting Trident missile!
 
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cpd
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:47 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 23):
I apologize if you consider it a rant but if the number of casualties is the sole criteria for how fancy the toy is that the US should sell , the F22s should be sold to the French and Germans who have had double the casualties in Afghanistan than Australia, heck the Danes and Latvians on a per capita population basis should be getting Trident missile!

It's worth noting that Australia has supported the USA more closely than some of the other countries you've mentioned. It's not so long ago you might remember that your lot criticised Germany and France in particular for being "Old Europe" among other less than pleasant comments (some people saying that both countries supported terrorism).

So to accuse Australia as somehow not living up to the commitments of the ANZUS treaty is disingenuous. Our commitments, relative to our size are greater than many NATO countries.

Quoting trex8 (Reply 23):

True but when they were in power and made these comments they ran the shots

They are gone - for a very long time. I don't think the current government will be particularly aligned with China at all. The relationship at the moment seems to be one of convenience, more than anything else. We did however just have one of the more "testing" times in the Australia China relationship, so it's not a fait accompli as to which way our foreign policy will lean. But the ANZUS treaty carries more importance than the economic interests I think. And that's the way it will remain under the current leadership.

I can see that you've read the Wikipedia entry reasonably well (with citation needed for that particular comment). If I'm not mistaken, there is a requirement to consult, but not an automatic requirement to defend.

You seem to equate Howard as being more conservative than the current government. However, I don't think you've got it right - his style was more to govern based on what will get him elected. At the moment, there is no difference between the supposed left and right side of politics (the two main parties at least). They are both centre-right wing parties, while the traditional left has been taken up by the Greens, who are currently 'supporting' the minority Labor government on some things, but not everything so it seems.

On national security issues, I'd expect a broad-consensus from the Labor and Liberal/National parties in anything requiring votes in the houses of parliaments, meaning that Green support would not be needed on those issues. So to sum up, there won't be any stark shift to the left on defense policies.

Australia can be very good support at the moment for defense projects that have been put on ice. Keep production lines running, keep people in jobs - with no risk that the technology will be reverse engineered into someone else's fighter plane.. (I'm thinking of a couple of countries in particular). Our economy is working - we weather the financial storm quite well, and in the near future it seems like our budgets will be back in surplus. It's a winning situation for both sides.

[Edited 2010-10-04 17:48:49]
 
JTR
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:23 am

Can the Indonesians really afford this? The article says the Indonesians want 40% production share and technology transfer.

I see this announcement as more of a trial balloon or the "best case" negotiating position for the Indonesian MoD, but what little knowledge I have of that country's internal politics is now almost a decade out of date.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:11 am

Quoting JTR (Reply 25):

Surely I'm not an expert in Indonesian affairs either, but I know Indonesia a bit and I think the country's government does not have the stomach to bring such a major program to conclusion. The Indonesan military's core business is not warfare against other countries, and too few important people in Indonesia want to see huge amounts of money spent on advanced warplanes.

I'm told the few Flankers they already have are hangar queens.

Peter 
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Devilfish
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:04 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 5):
If they wish to do this, then it'd be only appropriate for Australia to push very strongly for the F22 Raptor, and large numbers of them in response (along with keeping the F-111 on for longer, and refurbishing them).

Ahh, it seems APA subscribes to the views aired here on A.net (or is it the other way around?).....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...k-tank-proposes-f_111-upgrade.html

(Source: Air Power Australia; published Oct. 4, 2010)

Quoting Editor's Note:
"Air Power Australia, a group of Australian opponents to the Joint Strike Fighter which have, in the past, published interesting analysis of the aircraft's drawbacks and operational shortcomings, have now come up with a proposal to instead upgrade the F-111 strike fighters that the Royal Australian Air Force is due to retire at year-end. Their rationale for modernizing the F-111, excerpted from an improbable political fiction scenario backing their call for parallel procurement of F-22s, is excerpted below--Ed."


Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
They dont need the F-15se to handle the indonesian airforce
Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
Australia rejected the F15 already (I remember the promo image of one in RAAF scheme), so it's unlikely we'll see one in the future.

Don't know which is saner, the TNI acquiring 180 new Flankers plus Falcons, or Oz spending inordinate amounts on an about to be retired type, which could end up costing as much as new F-15SEs.

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
This is one case where a bit of good old fashioned massive overkill would be quite good. Just as the old F-111 was.

So contrary to previous Governments' protestations, Australia (as well as Indonesia) is really awash with cash to pursue this "massive" buildup?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Lumberton
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:23 pm

"Improbably political fiction" is an accurate characterization. Barring a miraculous change of heart from the administration, the F-22 line is closing.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:20 pm

As is usually the case, the desired goods ran way ahead of the funding available.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...plans-major-procurement-drive.html

Quote:
"Around 150 trillion Indonesian rupiah ($16.8 billion) is required over the next five years for the modernisation, says defence minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro. The government aims to provide two-thirds of this sum, with the remainder to be covered by loans, he adds.

Foremost on the shopping list will be new fighters, transport aircraft and utility and search and rescue helicopters, say industry sources. Upgrades to existing aircraft could also be on the cards. The challenge, however, is finding the budget for all of this, they add."


http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Su-27SK_Climbing_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...images/AIR_Su-27SK_Climbing_lg.jpg

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_SU-35_Armed_AAMs_Test_Flight_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...U-35_Armed_AAMs_Test_Flight_lg.jpg


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Eadie

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ptrjong
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:00 pm

Quote:
Additional Sukhoi fighters are a priority for the Indonesian air force, with chief of staff Air Chief Marshal Imam Sufaat saying that the country could buy another six Su-30s

 
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
Devilfish
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:00 pm

Those additional six Su-30s had been in the cards even as the last deliveries were being ordered. It was requested that delivery of the latest airframes be expedited in order to make it to the Oct 5 military parade - but not before suffering delays due to the transporting aircraft going tech.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...dds-more-flankers-03691/#more-3691

The focus is on the fantastic 180 number in the OP's linked report. For which in reply to the question.....

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Could these be Chinese built?


.....this "related" critical article is provided.....

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/...0-2010/115203-china_arms_market-0/

A dose of their own medicine?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:17 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 31):
Those additional six Su-30s had been in the cards even as the last deliveries were being ordered.

Maybe, but the two articles are not congrous.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
mandala499
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:15 am

The Military Anniversary parade, goes all out on for the Air Force every 5 years...
All 6 Su-27s and all 6 Su-30s participated, involving the Russian delivery team and local civil aircraft engineers on standby to cover for the 12 Sukhois...

The current batch of 3 27SKMs and 3 30MKKs were delivered knock-ed down, and put to the air very quickly.

There's a joint evaluation team from the factory and our Air Force to cover for them for the next 12 months, to revamp the support system for the Sukhois, and prevent them from becoming hangar queens like a few years ago.

A lot of work has been done by the air force to improve safety and dispatch reliability, which was at it's poorest 2 years ago where reportedly >50% of the combat fleet and >25% of the transport fleet became hangar queens.

The Defence Secretary is impressed with the efforts put in and with the results (and I don't think he's been put up for a real "spin" on another type before) that he wants more of these!

As to the parade... you can find the pics here:
http://www.indoflyer.net/forum/tm.asp?m=484059
http://www.indoflyer.net/forum/tm.asp?m=483491&mpage=2&key=

Anyways, backto the topic...
Logistics, procurement (airframe, parts and weapon) glitches have been fixed in the past, and the military spending budget is no longer solely on an annual and headcount basis, but is being changed to "better cater for long term requirements", but I hear our parliament is still bitching about it, so the president put in a decree to allow that pending the new military budget act to be decided.

180 Flankers??? Geez, where on earth would they park them?????
And yes, I do wonder too, do we need that much? Heck, we still need to finance and order our fast jet and light combat aircraft (likely be the KT-50 or Yak-130, or split)... There's no doubt that we'd like to get more Flankers, and we're been asking for approval for newer F-16s... but... 180???? Geeezz!!!!

Quoting cpd (Reply 5):
Not in my recent memory, but there was that intervention in Timor Leste that I think caused some rather major headaches for Indonesia. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a few people high up that are still quite annoyed by that.

Well, us and Timor Leste are in good terms (actually, better than the days when we ruled over them!)... but how good is good, is a relative thing.

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 4):
Has there been animosity between those two nations that would justify the mutual defense expansion?

No...
RAAF F-18s and C-130s, and even the PC-9s have been passing through our airspace via Bali to go between Aussie to Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia, on a frequent and regular basis.

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
Because it's just not a very good idea for a number of reasons that should be quite obvious. For the same reason we shouldn't have given training to their special forces (who then terrorised innocent people). The country also has huge problems with insurgency from groups like JI - so it should get those under control first.
Quoting JTR (Reply 25):
Can the Indonesians really afford this? The article says the Indonesians want 40% production share and technology transfer.

Can we afford it? If our economy continues to grow like in the past few years (even when the world was contracting), yes, but not the whole 180!!!! The cuts to fuel subsidies freed up a heck of a lot of money that we can't catch up.

Only Knaapo & Irtkut as well as KAe are willing to offer technology transfers... Our aircraft manufacturing plant have settled down since the monetary crisis in 97-2000 to produce low numbers of C-212s, CN235s, as well as components and parts for Boeing, Lockheed Martin and EADS, and they finally realized that to make a "dream project" like the N250 and N2130, a lot have changed in 15 years! So, a lot of focus by IAe is being put to component manufacturing and maintenance/parts support (more money for less investment, albeit less glamorous, which peeves off the nostalgic types).

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 26):
I'm told the few Flankers they already have are hangar queens.

Up to 2008, they were... Basically the procurement had been grossly delayed for years because of too many trying to meddle in, and also, thanks to the annual budget method for the military, we were lucky the whole of our air force weren't grounded (and the past generals found it easier to get the funding approved by parliament to by flashy new cars instead)... after a few crashes, the govt. said, "somethings need to be fixed and changed!"

---

180??? Geez, am still shaking my head.
I know our air defence coverage need about 150 combat aircraft, but with the Sukhoi and it's range the number drops to about 100 combat aircraft only... that's only to cover the "black holes within", with no sustainable air defence capability should we embark on an offensive campaign.

Anti-Malaysian sentiments are quite high in the Parliament, I guess the government thinks it's a good idea to use it to boost our spending, up to a level short of having a real and sustainable offensive capability... as the parliament have been stalling the new military spending act and prefer to rant about petty disputes with Malaysia and call for war... I guess they want a piece of the war fund in their own pockets... and the parliament is not popular at all! The government (who thinks the parliament spewing anti-Malaysia rants as being "attention and vote whores) enjoys higher approval ratings than the parliament (put in the government factions and the opposition combined).

And no, we will not get Chinese made Flankers... previous "procurement generals" have been "removed/retired" for shortlisting a revamped MiG-21 trainer for our Advanced Jet Trainer/Light Combat Aircraft competition... M-346, Mig-AT, Yak-130, the Chinese Yak-130 clone known as the L-15, the Korean KT-50, a "super Hawk-100" and the L-159 were all submitted... the Guizhou JL-9 (that revamped Mig-21) was to be a no-contest loser... When it was about to be put into the short-list, everyone screamed! Even the L-15 we hear has not made the short list... KT-50 and Yak-130 are the likely winners... and that'll dictate which future types are going to be procured.

Next on the target list is the transport fleet. Current discussions within the procurement committee covers more CN-235s, or IAe making it's own C-295 version, E-390, or more C-130s... that one, still has a long way to go...

Mandala499
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:55 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):
Anti-Malaysian sentiments are quite high in the Parliament, I guess the government thinks it's a good idea to use it to boost our spending, up to a level short of having a real and sustainable offensive capability... as the parliament have been stalling the new military spending act and prefer to rant about petty disputes with Malaysia and call for war... I guess they want a piece of the war fund in their own pockets... and the parliament is not popular at all! The government (who thinks the parliament spewing anti-Malaysia rants as being "attention and vote whores) enjoys higher approval ratings than the parliament (put in the government factions and the opposition combined).

So what are these anti-Malaysian sentiments about? Is it still a reaction following Indonesia´s opposition to the forming of the Malaysian federation in the 1960s?
Is it a leftover from Suharto´s Malfilindo politics (the creation of a Malay language family superstate out of Malaysia, the Philippines and Indonesia), also from the 1960s?
Or is northern Borneo (Sarawak and Sabah) still contested? From what I understand the Philippines gave up claims on Sabah back in the 1970s.

Jan
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mandala499
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:31 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
So what are these anti-Malaysian sentiments about? Is it still a reaction following Indonesia´s opposition to the forming of the Malaysian federation in the 1960s?

No, it's petty border disputes, and cultural claims dispute... nothing worth going to war for!   
Trade ties are still very close...

I guess it's a slow news year for Indonesia!
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:35 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33):

Thanks for the update, Mandala.

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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:56 pm

What if Indonesia negotiated for an order of J-10's and flankers as a high low mix. They both use the same engine. But would the Russians allow the export of the export of a fighter that might impede on their sales ?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/aircraft-pictures/j10_01blarge.jpg

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/wp-content/gallery/parade-j10/neo_img_dsc_1757.jpg
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:55 pm

Quoting CMB56 (Reply 3):
I don't care how many pilots you have if you don't have the engineering staff to keep them airworthy and combat ready the best technology in the world is useless.

Absolutely. Not saying the TNI can't do it, but there is a learning curve to crawl up to be able to support 180 a/c.
Also very important is the training regimen. All very good to have 180 a/c with a decent dispatch reliability, but if the pilots are not well schooled in tactics, then they're not really much good.

Quoting cpd (Reply 5):
If they wish to do this, then it'd be only appropriate for Australia to push very strongly for the F22 Raptor, and large numbers of them in response (along with keeping the F-111 on for longer, and refurbishing them). F35 is just not adequate.
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
But the F22 makes a much stronger statement.

It would, but that option is off the table--permanently.

Lumberton is right, F-22 exports will remain the wet dream of AF brass in various parts and also for many A.netters.
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:20 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 37):
What if Indonesia negotiated for an order of J-10's and flankers as a high low mix.

Any G-to-G deals with China would involve other "packages"... guess what, the previous vice-president pushed for more deals with China as a "diversification" strategy. The highest profile ones involved new power stations and the AVIC MA-60...

The power stations ended up stalling, because, China is the largest coal export market, hence, the supply chain for the coal for the power stations are strained, and AFAIK, none of the Chinese proposed non-coal power stations went past the penultimate proposal technical assessment. Senior managers in the National Electricity Company (PLN) I chatted with during the time mentioned, "horrible! They can offer me/us as much kickbacks and bribes or whatever, but seriously, it's gonna be very expensive in the long run... I love kickbacks, but, I have my limits!"   

And China forced/encouraged us importing the MA-60, none of the airlines wanted it, so China arranged 6 MA-60s as part of the powerplant deal. Merpati fell victim, being obliged by the government to take 6, 3 were delivered back then (maybe more now), after 6 months of operations, the rudder cracked on all 3, and Merpati went to AVIC asking for a fix, only to be replied, "well, that's not part of the deal, sorry..." Merpati ended up going to the government saying, "look you wanted us to operate these monsters, and with no warranty? From now, you pay for everything on the aircraft, we just provide the crew... otherwise, we'll just ground it forever!"

As a result, the military, is cautious about procuring "expensive high-end Chinese military hardware"... especially after the 'mysterious' shortlisting of the Guizhou JL-9 in the advanced trainer selection.... J-10? Well, I guess we'd all prefer the Flankers. The military brass, wants only flashy western or Russian equipment for combat aircraft... (ironically, this makes a lot of sense, however, prestige is the main issue... I guess sometimes silly things can yield better choices/results!    ).

We have experience (albeit little) on the Sukhois, and are now receiving good after sales support (even on the engine overhaul rotations)... We still like our western combat toys, although the occasional embargo make our military look like a joke... but, experience with the MA-60, and the Chinese military hardware procured during the previous administration (thanks to the Vice-President, and thankfully in small numbers), point the direction of future military procurement to be the domain of USA, Europe, Brazil, Korea, and Russia... Not China!

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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:26 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 37):
But would the Russians allow the export of the export of a fighter that might impede on their sales ?

Good point. I'm sure the Flanker license agreement does not allow for exports. The Chinese are taking liberties with that agreement, as I guess the Russians knew they would, but exports would probably hurt Sino-Russian relations too much.
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:36 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 39):
"horrible! They can offer me/us as much kickbacks and bribes or whatever, but seriously, it's gonna be very expensive in the long run... I love kickbacks, but, I have my limits!"

Great, someone with a conscience.....at least. I hope there's better to ask for in a place a little north of there.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 39):
As a result, the military, is cautious about procuring "expensive high-end Chinese military hardware"... especially after the 'mysterious' shortlisting of the Guizhou JL-9 in the advanced trainer selection.... J-10? Well, I guess we'd all prefer the Flankers.

It was rumored that the Chinese-built Flankers were of better quality than the originals. That could be partly true, but it's doubtful that Chinese fighter jet engine technology, or technology in general, has overtaken the Russian's.....

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.....as Pravda rants (even if they do say so themselves).

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/...0-2010/115203-china_arms_market-0/
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:23 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 41):
It was rumored that the Chinese-built Flankers were of better quality than the originals. That could be partly true, but it's doubtful that Chinese fighter jet engine technology, or technology in general, has overtaken the Russian's.....

Could be the mods they've done to the design, in the fields of avionics and systems that make the difference. However, the airframe, if better, wouldn't be significantly better... and if they build it to the same quality as the MA-60s, no bloody way!   .

I do think that the Chinese Flankers have been considered in the past, irrespective of whether they would be allowed to do so or not, but let's just say, 'someone' associated with the Flanker committee, was very interested in the reliability of Chinese made components in the A320 (non-Chinese assembled)... "not very good" was the conclusion.

Chinese products can be frustrating... they're amazing in capability, but longetivity... seems to be as reliable as predicting the next major earthquake down to the hour...

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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:55 am

Indonesia struggles to keep a handful of Flankers operational at the moment so I don't see how they will be able to operate 180. That is why there has been no response from Australia.

Just one interesting point re' the F15 and the RAAF, it was the first choice for the RAAF over the F18 and F16 but was deemed to be too superior for the region and there was fears it would start an mini arms race if the RAAF operated the F15.
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:16 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 41):
It was rumored that the Chinese-built Flankers were of better quality than the originals.

It is also well established that the first few Su27s assembled by the Chinese had to be re assembled, needless to say the Chinese and Russians blamed each other for the mess. Though that says nothing of what present Chinese manufactured components are like and how far up the learning curve they now are.

The general take on the eastern side of the Taiwan Straits is that the PLAAF are still in Warsaw pact mentality mode when it comes to poor weather/night flying or any difficult mission training- ie you hardly ever do it, because if you crash, people up in Beijing will have your a.... So even if they have a large number of sophisticated planes, don't count on them being able to be used effectively. If their problems with the licence manufacture of Spey engines is anything to go by and reflect similar issues with the J11/J10, don't count too much on their reliability either when they do fly.
 
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:04 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
For more information see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maphilindo

I wonder if this ideology still has followers?

Well I do note that neither Mandala nor any of the Indonesians I know rave on about it much. It was all a bit much for Malaysia to unite especially when Indonesia more or less now owned the Malay language. Added to which the third principle of Pancasila was Persatuan Indonesia, The Unity of Indonesia and since those other folk spoke almost the same language, they had to be assured of the benefits of unity did they not?

But Pancasila is not what it was and Indonesia has been more intent over recent years in not "losing" any more "provinces". Irian and the Moluccas would be off like a shot not to mention Aceh.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 35):
No, it's petty border disputes, and cultural claims dispute... nothing worth going to war for!
Trade ties are still very close...

Cultural claims, you must mean the dreaded Rendang wars over whether the Malays or the Minangkabau invented it!

Thanks for your summary Mandala. Good and relevant as ever.

Some happy day, Indonesia and Aus are going to collaborate on defence - I hope. Meanwhile keep those Flankers away from W Bandung, one might fall on our house!!

Sounds as if IPTN is functioning again, happily not with new designs??? Interesting to note that some of Habibie's wilder schemes still exist in various ministries (like liquids from coal) around the place but most have been replaced by reality.

But 180 would be a lot of Flankers!
 
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:11 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
Some happy day, Indonesia and Aus are going to collaborate on defence - I hope. Meanwhile keep those Flankers away from W Bandung, one might fall on our house!!

It seems to be necessary that there is more cooperation among the South-East Asian countries, especially in the face of huge territorial claims by the Chinese in the South and East China seas (though these claims affect Indonesia not directlya, but they´ll have a direct impact on Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and the Philippines as well a Japan and Korea).
Indonesia might be concerned as well if the South China Sea becomes Chinese territory and they control the shipping lanes passing through it.

Jan
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baroque
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:15 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
huge territorial claims by the Chinese in the South and East China seas (though these claims affect Indonesia not directly
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
Indonesia might be concerned as well if the South China Sea becomes Chinese territory and they control the shipping lanes passing through it.

Very concerned. There is already and ambit claim over Natuna which has producing oil and gas fields as opposed to potential fields that is the case for most of the other areas in dispute.

Australia should develop common cause with Indonesia over that. It is a far more real threat than the domino theory ever was.

It seems an irrelevant comment, but it would help if Indonesia used its own natural gas more effectively. That would mean it had a much greater interest to defend Natuna!

I like the phrasing of this article

http://thejakartaglobe.com/columns/t...thinker-caution-over-natuna/315800

Indonesia has until recently been a cautious bystander in these events. However, a series of Chinese maps, the first produced in 1993 at an informal workshop on the South China Sea hosted by Indonesia in Surabaya, appear to stake a claim by China to the entire South China Sea, including the marine territory north of the Natunas.

This claimed area overlaps Indonesia’s assumptions that its Exclusive Economic Zone extends northward from the Natunas, jutting into the South China Sea and including areas believed to hold significant oil and gas reserves.

At the meeting in Surabaya, B. Raman, a former senior Indian government official, wrote in Asian Affairs that there was alarm on the part of the Indonesian delegation.

“The Indonesians noticed to their surprise that the Chinese claim line was marked between the Natuna Islands of Indonesia and a gas-bearing area located 250 kilometers to the northeast of it, which lies within the limit of the Exclusive Economic Zone of 320 kilometers claimed by Indonesia, thereby raising the suspicion that China probably looked upon this gas-bearing area also as historically belonging to it even though it had never claimed it in the past before the discovery of gas.”

Nothing has been heard of the Chinese claim following another map published in 1998, at least until the arrests of the fishermen. The Chinese foreign ministry’s reaction to the arrests made it crystal clear that the issue remains on China’s agenda.


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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:33 am

Wow Indonesia buys 180 Flankers as well as F16s and Germany will at some point will only have a fleet of 180 (probably even less) fighter aircraft
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Indonesia Plans 180 Flankers Plus F-16s-Article

Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:17 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 47):
Very concerned. There is already and ambit claim over Natuna which has producing oil and gas fields as opposed to potential fields that is the case for most of the other areas in dispute.

As you know I´ve got family ties with the Philippines, so I tend to support their claims, as long as they are reasonable. The Chinese claims (made both by the PRC and Taiwan, but each demanding the total control) are IMO not reasonable.
While the various reefs and small islands in the South China sea have probably been known to fishermen and sailors of all neighbouzring countries (incl. China), they were at the best used to find refuge from storms and bad weather, but there were never (until the last twenty or so years) permanent settlements on them. During the last few years the countries involved built military outposts on some of these small islands (which are smaller than football fields). The Chinese used their military power to activelly attack rivals like Vietnam.
The reefs and islands were only officially charted by the British Royal Navy during the 19th century, which theoretically would allow the British to make claims, but the RN back then was only interested in these islands and reefs as potential shipping hazard.

During the late middle ages China had a blue water navy, which made large expeditions as far as East Africa, but following emperors decided to destroy this navy and to cut off all long range sea travel abroad, isolating the country (maybe fear of foreign influences? If they would have pursued their explorations, the world map would probably look different today).

A reasonable approach to the South China sea issued would be to divide the sea into cake slices refering to the country´s coastlines, similar to what was done with the North Sea after oil was discovered there.

Jan
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