Ken777
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Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:29 pm

Why am I not surprised?

Quote:
The Air Force chief on Tuesday cautioned that his service is ensuring that the selection of a new refueling tanker fleet is done "right" rather than "fast."

The Air Force has been expected to announce the winner of the $35 billion contract by year’s end.

Gen. Norton Schwartz, the Air Force's chief of staff, refused to reveal a selection date or confirm that a winner will be announced by the end of the year.
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbyi...hief-tanker-process-wont-be-rushed

and

http://kc-xtankernews.com/

Not only am I not surprised, but am not overly concerned. THe longer they take the better the odds that the economy will improve sufficiently to actually pay for a few.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:02 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Not only am I not surprised, but am not overly concerned. THe longer they take the better the odds that the economy will improve sufficiently to actually pay for a few.


Hopefully,it takes US national dept approx. 7 days to add 35 Billion to the total dept witch at the moment shows staggering 13 610 Billion dollars.......and counting  Wow!         
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Tue Oct 19, 2010 11:58 am

The longer this goes on the more I favor reengining and updating the KC-135E.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:39 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
The longer this goes on the more I favor reengining and updating the KC-135E.

I couldn´t agree more!!!
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:59 pm

I understand that this is all political, but why can't they just make an AAR version of the Boeing 767? Japan and Italy have a couple of examples, each. IAI is making a custom modification of a 767 for the Fuerza Aerea Colombiana. I am thinking from the point of lower airframe hours. The 767 isn't exactly new, but it is newer than the 135 airframes out there.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:03 am

Yeah,... and EADS could submit a version of the A330, and we could have,....wait a minute.
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:37 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
The longer this goes on the more I favor reengining and updating the KC-135E.

Based on what has previously occured, I think I am starting to disagree. If they delay the award by another 5 to 10 years by whatever means, the KC-135's may no longer be viable, that may be the ultimate strategy they intend to implement.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:09 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Not only am I not surprised, but am not overly concerned. THe longer they take the better the odds that the economy will improve sufficiently to actually pay for a few.

Or maybe they expect the tea party types to take over Congress in November and not fund a damn thing...   
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Ken777
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:46 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Or maybe they expect the tea party types to take over Congress in November and not fund a damn thing...

Regardless of how the Tea Party does in November the military is in for changes. Republicans will have the House and will be looking for ways to cut funding overall so the Tanker has a few challenges. If the Tea Party get's to a position where the Republicans will listen to them then cuts will be stronger.

Add to that the stories that SecDef Gates is ready to enjoy life outside of DC again and the DoD will be missing a huge bridge to the Hill as well as the White House.

So your comments might be closer then you think.  
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:44 pm

The Tea Party and GOP will be looking for deep cuts to the federal budget, but will also want to balance that with American jobs. The Democrats willalso want American jobs. So, Boeing should enjoy more support than EADS will, considering we are now counting every single job. The EADS plan is to build at least the 4 SDD aircraft in France and Spain. If the Alabama plant gets delayed,more EADS tankers will be built by EU workers, not Americans.

None of the political parties can now accept putting Europeans to work at the expense of even one American job.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:20 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
None of the political parties can now accept putting Europeans to work at the expense of even one American job

Really, pressure was applied to have "buy American" removed from the massive stimulus packages that were passed so that is not a given, coupled with the fact that the economy does not seem to be responding to the stimulus may lead some to question where the money is going.

Latest I read is that if a new tanker is purchased, the next would not occur for another 20 years or so, with the Air Force love affair with the A330, the size equal to the KC-10, one a/c could be used to replace two in service tankers. Heck they may even play up stimulus by inserting additional infrastructure upgrades for the larger a/c on the home front to increase the number of potential bases.

I put nothing past the US Air Force brass, so interesting times ahead.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:17 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 10):
I put nothing past the US Air Force brass, so interesting times ahead.

I agree with that.

Quoting par13del (Reply 10):
Latest I read is that if a new tanker is purchased, the next would not occur for another 20 years or so, with the Air Force love affair with the A330, the size equal to the KC-10, one a/c could be used to replace two in service tankers. Heck they may even play up stimulus by inserting additional infrastructure upgrades for the larger a/c on the home front to increase the number of potential bases.

The KC-30 is much, much bigger than the KC-10. If bought,it will be bigger (by wingspan) than even the VC-25,it will be the second biggerst airplane (by wingspan) in the USAF inventory, only the C-5 is bigger. All that size for a 20% fuel load increase oiver the KC-135, and still some 115,000 lbs less that the fuel load of the KC-10.

Quoting par13del (Reply 10):
Really, pressure was applied to have "buy American" removed from the massive stimulus packages that were passed so that is not a given, coupled with the fact that the economy does not seem to be responding to the stimulus may lead some to question where the money is going.

The 2009 $787B 'stimulus' is widely seen in the USA as a failure along with TARP.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:57 pm

Let's leave the worn out A vs B comparisons and rhetoric out of this thread... we've seen and heard almost everything imaginable credited to both aircraft... It's a no win from some posters.

this thread is strictly about the award date and any implied or stated slippage.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:19 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 12):
Let's leave the worn out A vs B comparisons and rhetoric out of this thread

Can we include the old worn out rhetoric of D & R (and maybe T)?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
The Tea Party and GOP will be looking for deep cuts to the federal budget

True, but isn't it conventional wisdom that the Republican party has always been pro-defense?
Besides, Shelby, Session, Cramer, Bachus and Davis will have seniority over any new T-party congressional members. And you know how much they would like to have an A330 final assembly plant in Alabama . . .  

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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:45 pm

My guess is, and no body but senior USAF Officers know, the award will be sometime in December, but, most likely, after Christmas.
 
Ken777
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:18 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 13):
Besides, Shelby, Session, Cramer, Bachus and Davis will have seniority over any new T-party congressional members.

When it comes to ANY Tea Party politician being elected in the House they had better keep their campaign positions or they will be out in 2 years. Add to that the fact that Rep John Boehner is plowing money into their campaign chests and will be expecting them to tow the line when they win.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2010102103320.html?hpid=topnews

Tea Party Flakes for the Senate face a far easier time since they get 6 LONG years and only have to act like a Tea Bagger for the last of those 6. They will probably following the marching orders from the top of the Republicans in the Senate, or will get the absolute worst committee memberships for all 6 years.

Looking at the two houses, the Tea Party will probably not make a lick of difference for the tanker program in hte Senate, but can cause some real misery for it in the House.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
My guess is, and no body but senior USAF Officers know, the award will be sometime in December, but, most likely, after Christmas.

Or maybe sometime after the election. A lot of nasties will be hitting the fan during the lame duck session, regardless of how big a margin the Republicans pull in. The lame duck as until January 19th to take care of some business and the USAF would be very wise to get in ASAP after the election.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:59 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
Ken777

I think you have a point, Ken. The Tea Party will have to keep their promises of reducing the federal budget,and debt, while putting as many Americans back to work as possible. To me, that means the Boeing offer.

I thought the new Congress takes over on 3 Jan. 2011, not the 19th.

The USAF will have to have all their "t" crossed and "i" dotted in their final selection, or they won't get a new tanker from anyone. The USAF must notify both Boeing and EADS when each can submit their "final" offer on price, capability, and offered packages (maintenance, training, spares, etc.). As I understand it, the USAF is still in the phase of asking each OEM about the proposals they submitted on 8 and 9 July 2010. Each submitted more than 8,000 pages of information on their respective offers.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:18 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
putting as many Americans back to work as possible. To me, that means the Boeing offer.

???

Well that depends on which rhetoric you are willing to listen to.

From: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...rce-tanker-bid/UPI-47731287672412/

"Boeing claims its tanker program will employ 50,000 Americans. EADS claims its plan will employ 48,000 Americans."

As I recall, T-parties and Republicans do not like Unions. Most likely the Alabama plant will be non-union as opposed to the Boeing Unions in Everett and Wichita.

There's the wild card . . . if the Republican do win the house and Senate, how much clout will the Kansas and Missouri delegation wield?.

What a bunch of convoluted possibilities!!!!

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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:17 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 17):
As I recall, T-parties and Republicans do not like Unions.

I don't remember the Tea Party or GOP candidates making any distingtion between putting union or non-union people back to work.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 17):
if the Republican do win the house and Senate, how much clout will the Kansas and Missouri delegation wield?.

What a bunch of convoluted possibilities!!!!

Perhaps, but you are right, KS, MO, and WA will all have a huge amount of clout, no matter which party controls the Congress for the next 2 years.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 17):
Well that depends on which rhetoric you are willing to listen to.

From: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...2412/

Well, Ms Grant should have read the fuel load and off load requirements in the RFP/SRD before she weighed in with her 'opinion'. There is nothing that says the biggest automaticly wins. But it does mention that cost will be a big determination in the selection.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:52 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
I don't remember the Tea Party or GOP candidates making any distingtion between putting union or non-union people back to work.

No, but there is widely held beliefs from the "Right" that labor unions tends to donate money to Democrats . . . along with all the rhetoric of unions being left wing, socialist etc . . .

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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:24 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Perhaps, but you are right, KS, MO, and WA will all have a huge amount of clout, no matter which party controls the Congress for the next 2 years.

Not to mention Illinois. Boeing picked up a huge congressional delegation when they moved HQ to Illinois. This alone may have sealed the Boeing Tanker deal for them. Which would easily pay for the move to Chicago, wouldn't it.

The bottom line is the Air Force is not powerful enough to deny Boeing's will. I would gladly be wrong about that. Since the AF can't deny, they will delay a little bit. But in the end, it is written in stone. IMO.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:04 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
Not to mention Illinois. Boeing picked up a huge congressional delegation when they moved HQ to Illinois. This alone may have sealed the Boeing Tanker deal for them. Which would easily pay for the move to Chicago, wouldn't it.

Did not help with the second RFP, so why would it help with the third or fourth or whichever one we are at now other than the first lease deal.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
The bottom line is the Air Force is not powerful enough to deny Boeing's will. I would gladly be wrong about that. Since the AF can't deny, they will delay a little bit. But in the end, it is written in stone. IMO.

Well they managed to not give Boeing the CSAR contract which they won - I think twice but I stand to be corrected -, they gave POTUS helo to a non-US a/c which appears to have forced Boeing to purchase said a/c plans etc. with no certainty that the a/c will eventually be purchased.
If Boeing's will was that strong this deal would / should have been sealed a long time ago, if Boeing does not get this deal the blame lies elsewhere, start with the politicians then work your way down through the various Air Force levels.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 17):
As I recall, T-parties and Republicans do not like Unions. Most likely the Alabama plant will be non-union as opposed to the Boeing Unions in Everett and Wichita.

Let's also remember that Republicans first and foremost are supporters of business owners, out-sourcing of US jobs to foreign nations to maintain profitability margins flourished under the Bush administration, supporting business does not have to mean US labour jobs.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:01 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 21):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 17):
As I recall, T-parties and Republicans do not like Unions. Most likely the Alabama plant will be non-union as opposed to the Boeing Unions in Everett and Wichita.

Let's also remember that Republicans first and foremost are supporters of business owners, out-sourcing of US jobs to foreign nations to maintain profitability margins flourished under the Bush administration, supporting business does not have to mean US labour jobs.

Let's get back on topic, please. Your posts could easily be oin the non-aviation boards.

The latest rumor is the USAF will soon announce the selection date to be moved to 2011Q1. They are expected to notify the OEMs of a date they can submit their final bid in the next week or two.
 
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:38 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
The latest rumor is the USAF will soon announce the selection date to be moved to 2011Q1. They are expected to notify the OEMs of a date they can submit their final bid in the next week or two.

I imagine that politics has nothing to do with putting off the selection until the mid-term elections are over and the new congress is sworn in.    
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Ken777
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RE: Air Force Hedging On KC-X Award Date

Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:00 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
I thought the new Congress takes over on 3 Jan. 2011, not the 19th.

My bad - I was thinking of the Presidential terms.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 17):
As I recall, T-parties and Republicans do not like Unions. Most likely the Alabama plant will be non-union as opposed to the Boeing Unions in Everett and Wichita.

The Tea Party had better be concerned with any decent jobs they can open up. WIthout visible efforts to improve the unemployment situation they will end up fading away rather fast. Minimum wage jobs won't cut it.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
The bottom line is the Air Force is not powerful enough to deny Boeing's will.

Of course they are. The problem the USAF has today is their reputation in the area of the tanker decisions is in the pits. Who really trusts them on any tanker deal?

That means they need the good name of Sec Gates being the final decision point and announcing the final decision to the public.

The USAF also will be needing a lot of funding for replacing other aircraft - like fighters. That means they had better get the lowest priced bid of the two, including all future costs.

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