747400sp
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Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:14 am

I under stand that in California, C-130s with new eight blade props, are be tested. These C130 are powered by the old T-56 I believe, but they are going though the same eight blade props conversion that E-2 Hawkeyes and C-2 Greyhounds just went though. If any body have any info on the eight blade C-130s, please post it?
 
B727LVR
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:53 am

Here is an Air Force pages talking about it:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123229491

http://www.edwards.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089573


From what I can see, it looks like they are replacing the T-56 engines with Rolls Royce engines (along with the propeller). If this upgrade works as good as they hoping, it looks like the legacy C-130's could be around for even longer. I'm not sure if the E-2's and C-2's had an engine change for their new props.
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ThePointblank
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:51 pm

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 1):
Here is an Air Force pages talking about it:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123229491

http://www.edwards.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123089573


From what I can see, it looks like they are replacing the T-56 engines with Rolls Royce engines (along with the propeller). If this upgrade works as good as they hoping, it looks like the legacy C-130's could be around for even longer. I'm not sure if the E-2's and C-2's had an engine change for their new props.

Problem is that the legacy Hercs are suffering from centre wing box cracking, and the only solution to that problem is a very expensive swap of the section with a section that was destined for a new Herc J. The incremental costs of keeping the legacy Herc and buying a new Herc from LM isn't that much I'm afraid after all the man hours required to perform the job.
 
zanl188
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:53 pm

It's a prop swap only, engine remains the same. BTW: the T-56 is a Rolls Royce engine since RR bought Allison.

I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...
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fridgmus
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:08 pm

What about a 10 bladed prop? Wouldn't that decrease vibration even more or would it make the system too complex?

Thanks,

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B727LVR
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:22 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...

It might but I doubt it. From what I have read, the Jato systems are used on the birds making artice runs. I dont think the new prop provides that much more lift than the old one, atleast not enough to make up for the loss of the Jato.

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 4):
What about a 10 bladed prop? Wouldn't that decrease vibration even more or would it make the system too complex?

Yeah a 10 blade prop would be a bit much. The new 6 and 8 blade props are much more quite and efficent than the old ones.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
BTW: the T-56 is a Rolls Royce engine since RR bought Allison.

I was unaware of that, thanks!
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:39 pm

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 5):
It might but I doubt it. From what I have read, the Jato systems are used on the birds making artice runs. I dont think the new prop provides that much more lift than the old one, atleast not enough to make up for the loss of the Jato.

The first article linked above says:

Quote:

"It is designed specifically for the LC-130 mission in Antarctica," said Maj. C.B. Cain, a C-130 flight commander. "Right now, they use these jet-assisted takeoff bottles to help them takeoff to get to about a 60-knot takeoff range. If this propeller does what it is supposed to do, then it would produce additional thrust and reduce the need for those JATO bottles, or eliminate them completely.

Of course, emphasis is on the "if the propeller does what it is supposed to do" part...
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cmb56
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:30 pm

The modification to the aircraft does not replace the engines.

The engines are upgraded to full electronic controls instead of direct mechanical control and the new composite propellars are installed.

The combination has major improvements in thrust, fuel burn, and engine life. The question is how long is the payback between the upfront cost and the savings.
 
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:52 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Of course, emphasis is on the "if the propeller does what it is supposed to do" part...

Agreed there. I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets. I think it might be a bit of a stretch.
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:33 pm

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 8):
I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets.

Very good point. I saw the Blue Angels "Fat Albert" do a RATO and it's very impressive.
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:14 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...

I suspect the prop change is being made for the same reason the USN E-2/C-2 acft changed to 8 bladed props.... the "old" propeller was no longer being manufactured = time for a look at what current technology has to offer.
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hercppmx
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:11 am

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 8):
Agreed there. I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets.

On the Legacy c-130's the 8 jato bottles add enough trust to make it as if you have a 5th Engine On the plane. The C-130J model has different engines and props, and jato isn't an option on the J models. The J's at military power produce the equivalent thrust of a legacy with Jato. The main engine difference is 1. Fadec instead of a hydro-mechanincal fuel control. 2. the engine on the J's has variable stator vanes. 3. the J engine is not direct drive like the legacy's 4. the prop changed from a 4 bladed hamilton standard 54H60-111 to a 6 bladed prop made by dowty.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
BTW: the T-56 is a Rolls Royce engine since RR bought Allison.



Yes the T56 is now considered a Rolls Royce engine. the legacy KC-130T's operated by the USMC use the T56-A-16. It's a 14 stage axial flow single spool compressor. with 4 stages on the turbine. It's direct drive, the prop is fed through a reduction gearbox with 13.54 to 1 Reduction. I.E. 100% on the engine equals 13820 rpm and 1020-1021 rpm on the prop.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...

As I understand the bottles are no longer made. (maybe due to cost.) I know that the blue angels "fat albert" no longer does JATO shots, and we don't do them in the fleet. The 8 bladed prop was tested on the LC-130 a.k.a SKI-130 for at least the last 3 years on it Antarctic trips. I don't think the lack of JATO was an Influence in the prop change as JATO is very very very rarely used in the fleet, if at all. I have never see a C-130 besides "Fat Albert" use JATO.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I saw the Blue Angels "Fat Albert" do a RATO and it's very impressive.

I was fortunate enough to ride on Buno 164763 A.K.A. "Fat Albert" on it's 3rd to last JATO demonstration. It's impresive on the outside, but on the plane it's so much better. at Vr they light the rockets and it almost throws you sideways toward the back of the aircraft it climbs at 40-45 deg. AOA to around 110 KIAS and then they do a zero g pushover which creates about 4-6 seconds of weightlessness. The entire demonstration is remarkable inside the plane. So much so that you hope a C-130 your on never does that again. That Plane is capable of so much more then the standard mission profiles we fly.
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:48 pm

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 11):
The entire demonstration is remarkable inside the plane. So much so that you hope a C-130 your on never does that again.

LOL! Sounds like a very cool experience to have, but just once!

The Wiki JATO page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JATO

has a video of LC-130 doing a JATO takeoff in the snow.

I went there to see if JATO or RATO was the right term to use. The answer is:

Quote:

In all of these cases the term "jet" is correct but the system is more accurately called RATO. However JATO remains the most popular version, apparently due to its US origin.

True jet-engine assisted takeoff (as opposed to rocket) was used on the later piston engined airplanes such as the B-36 bomber (six turning, four burning), among others. But as mentioned, a rocket is also a "jet" engine, because one definition of "jet" is "a coherent stream of fluid that is projected into a surrounding medium, usually from some kind of a nozzle or aperture".
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rwessel
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:31 am

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 8):
Agreed there. I dont see how a propeller can equal the same thrust 8 rockets. I think it might be a bit of a stretch.

Those eight JATO bottles are only 1000lbs of thrust each. That's not really all that much on a 150,000lb airplane. It's difficult to compare HP and thrust, since it's dependent on the speed of the aircraft or requires a better understanding of the engine propeller combination, but a four engine jet in that size range would have a total of about 35,000lbs installed, so as hercppmx noted, the eight JATO bottles are roughly equivalent to a fifth engine.

So if the new props and engine combination increases low speed thrust by 20-25%, they can replace the JATO bottles at the same takeoff weight. The AE-2100's are flat rated to just a bit more power than the old Allisons, and can probably put out a fair bit more power, especially in (far) below ISA conditions (RR claims that versions can produce up to 6100HP). The Antarctic birds may have dispensation to use them at the higher rating for ice takeoffs (often the extra power is available in the case of an engine failure anyway, but normally isn't used outside of emergencies).

[Edited 2011-01-03 23:33:16]
 
mffoda
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 11):

"I have never see a C-130 besides "Fat Albert" use JATO."


Here is a couple of youtube vids of the USAF Special Operations testing on the YMC-130H... They were testing to see if they could takeoff and land in a football stadium in downtown Tehran, for the first hostage rescue attempt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gXfK4ypirI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKCl3lfAx1Q&feature=related
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 14):
They were testing to see if they could takeoff and land in a football stadium

Well, I bet the A400M can land in half a football field, with a tail wind too!  
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747400sp
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:53 am

Quoting B727LVR (Reply 5):
Yeah a 10 blade prop would be a bit much. The new 6 and 8 blade props are much more quite and efficent than the old ones.

It would be interesting if somebody tried a 12 blade prop design.
 
nomadd22
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:28 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):

Well, I bet the A400M can land in half a football field, with a tail wind too!

It would be pretty impressive to see a 148' long plane land in a 150' long space.
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dlednicer
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:12 pm

As the caption of this photo indicates, Snow Aviation has tested 8-blade Hamilton-Sunstrand props on an old WC-130E:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric K. Cowan



Separately, the USAF ANG LC-130Hs are getting upgraded with the same prop:
http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/news/2008/10/airforce_cold_props_101308/101008af_propeller1.JPG

Plus, the ANG is looking at the possibility of putting on them other legacy Hercules:
http://www.ng.mil/news/archives/2010/11/images/110510-C-130-full.jpg
 
sasd209
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:37 pm

Quoting dlednicer (Reply 18):
As the caption of this photo indicates, Snow Aviation has tested 8-blade Hamilton-Sunstrand props on an old WC-130E:

Slightly tech-question here: What are the "pods" at the end of the wings of the Herc' in the first pic, Anyone know? They look a bit small to be fuel tanks, but I wouldn't know and havent seen any on other Weather Recon/search -130's..
 
trigged
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting dlednicer (Reply 18):
Plus, the ANG is looking at the possibility of putting on them other legacy Hercules:

I know the Wyoming ANG birds had them on for testing, but took them back off. That photo included in your reply is a WY ANG bird so they had them for a while.

Link to hi-res photo of them being installed: http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/med...todb/photos/080305-F-3571D-009.jpg

More photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wyoguard/sets/72157626004982863/

The 8 blade props were taken off in the end of February.
 
ulfinator
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
I understand JATO bottles are no longer being manufactured and are reaching the end of their shelf life - I wonder if this is a factor in the prop change...
Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):

Very good point. I saw the Blue Angels "Fat Albert" do a RATO and it's very impressive.
Quoting hercppmx (Reply 11):
I know that the blue angels "fat albert" no longer does JATO shots, and we don't do them in the fleet.

I can't remember who exactly I was talking to but I mentioned that I would love to see 'Fat Albert" do a JATO demonstration and was told that apparently the Navy had stockpiled the late remaining JATO bottles somewhere, I assume Pensacola, and the warehouse they were in was damaged by a hurricane and the JATO bottles were all lost. Can anyone confirm that?
 
mffoda
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:34 pm

Quoting ulfinator (Reply 21):

I can't remember who exactly I was talking to but I mentioned that I would love to see 'Fat Albert" do a JATO demonstration and was told that apparently the Navy had stockpiled the late remaining JATO bottles somewhere, I assume Pensacola, and the warehouse they were in was damaged by a hurricane and the JATO bottles were all lost. Can anyone confirm that?

Not Exactly... The Vietnam era JATO Bottles were used up in Operational testing (Operation Eagle Claw... etc.) and air demonstrations by the U.S. Navy demo's "Fat Albert" which ended in 2009? I Believe? has there been a demo since 2009? Anyway it will be missed!!   
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:09 am

It was my understanding as well that the damage to NAS / Forrest Sherman Field (NPA / KNPA), USA - Florida">NPA by hurricane Ivan in 2004 severely depleted the stockpile of JATO bottles. During the planning for the NAS New Orleans Airshow that year, it was determined that Fat Albert would not be doing anymore JATO shots until the homecoming show that year. As for the official end of the JATO shots I am not sure.
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kingairta
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RE: Info On C-130s With Eight Blade Props?

Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:08 pm

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 19):
Slightly tech-question here: What are the "pods" at the end of the wings of the Herc' in the first pic

Sensor pods.

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