N243NW
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P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:10 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XuMylC7gSc

Looks like an engine failure on short final, complete with eventual wheel/tire failure and prop strike.

An expensive incident, I'm sure, but it looks like it could have been MUCH worse, especially after ski-jumping off the crossing runway.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
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garpd
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:34 am

Well done to the pilot for not nose it over! I thought it was all over as it ski-jumped back into the air.
From the puff of smoke and the wobbling, it's defo an engine failure. You can just make out the prop starting to spin irregularly too.

[Edited 2011-01-07 00:34:34]
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Aesma
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:48 am

Do you have any info or is it just guessing ? Anyway the second "touchdown" doesn't seem that bad, strange that the gear failed. Didn't these planes land much heavier back in the day (with ammunition and all) ?
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garpd
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:30 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
Do you have any info or is it just guessing ?

Puff of smoke, wing wobble, prop starts spinning irregularly, engine begins to sound rough then appears to cut out and a howling noise is heard. How much more info do you need?

Tthe same plane suffered an engine failure and forced, wheels up, landing in 2004.

[Edited 2011-01-07 02:32:06]
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RobK
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:38 am

The huge ski ramp in the middle of the grass probably didn't help matters....
 
etherealsky
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:56 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
Anyway the second "touchdown" doesn't seem that bad, strange that the gear failed.

   That was a pretty significant impact. After being launched airborne again you can tell that his AoA was pretty high, and once he was starting to get out of ground effect I wouldn't be surprised if those wings were effectively stalled at that low airspeed by the way he sank like a rock. A P-51 is about 13 feet tall sitting on the ground, and judging from that video it looks like the gear were at least a good 15 feet off the ground at the highest point. Landing gear are strong, but not quite that strong. Maybe they would have held up if it was a Corsair or some other beefy carrier aircraft.

Watch the pilot at 0:17... good thing it looks like he had a helmet on.

[Edited 2011-01-07 03:02:38]
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:29 am

Quoting etherealsky (Reply 5):
That was a pretty significant impact.

Yes it was. And that was good bounced landing technique...keep it buried all the way back. Tough to keep discipline on such a bad bounce.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
Didn't these planes land much heavier back in the day (with ammunition and all) ?

Aircraft weight doesn't directly translate to impact stress on the landing gear. That was way, way harder than nromal.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
mcdu
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:30 pm

If you are going to three point a tailwheel airplane you better be stalled at touchdown, have min sink rate. If not then watch this video to see what happens. With that speed he should have made a wheel landing.

The P-51 engine makes those wonderful noises and sounded normal from what is was listen to. The change in the video of the blades is from power adjustments by the pilot.

I will give him credit for a nice recovery. Just flared too low   high sink rate, too fast and voila you are flying again.
 
rolfen
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:09 pm

Quoting mcdu (Reply 7):
The P-51 engine makes those wonderful noises and sounded normal from what is was listen to. The change in the video of the blades is from power adjustments by the pilot.

So how do you explain him not putting power on the rebound, or landing there in the first place?
And the black puff?

I am no expert myself. I have never heard a P-51 before, and I put all the weird noises in the video as maybe the sound of another airplane outside the frame, until I read someone here asserting that this was an engine failure - which explain why he landed there and why he did not use power to his advantage. But again, I might be wrong - I am basing all that only on my impression.
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cbphoto
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:24 pm

Not even sure what the argument is for. Clearly an engine problem, sounds even like a failure to me. When the merlins (if that is the engine in this plane) go to idle, you will hear popping sounds, which clearly were not evident in that video. My guess, is that puff of smoke was gasket or something being blown, which would easily lead to loss of power, or failure. Due to the loss of power (failure) the pilot had to land short and thus hit the taxiway, causing that second bounce. You can even see, when the aircraft comes to a stop, the prop is spinning down, as if their was no power to it. The noise you hear in the background is from another aircraft. Over all, great job to the pilot for keeping control of the plane, especially after he hit the taxiway. Sad to the P-51 get banged up like that, but she will be in the skies before we know it!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 9):
Not even sure what the argument is for. Clearly an engine problem, sounds even like a failure to me.

Pretty sure it was producing power but it sounds sick to me. That puff of smoke and the resulting pop were probably a backfire...it happens...and it does sound pretty rough after that.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 9):
My guess, is that puff of smoke was gasket or something being blown, which would easily lead to loss of power, or failure.

?? I don't think so.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 9):
You can even see, when the aircraft comes to a stop, the prop is spinning down, as if their was no power to it.

If I landed and had a prop strike and a damaged airplane the first thing I would do would be to pull the mixture and kill the engine. What good is running a potentially damaged engine (a rare Merlin to boot) going to do if I can't taxi?

And doesn't that Duxford grass runway start past the taxiway? It would suggest a landing short of the marked runway.
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gulfstream650
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:31 pm

As far as I am concerned (as a mere Private Pilot) that was a bloody good job.
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goblin211
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:43 pm

Good thing the guy was wearing a helmet b/c otherwise he could've had brain damage from all those bounces.
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g38
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:36 am

A true testament to the ruggedness of the Mustang. I'm amazed the pilot managed to keep it from nosing over.
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:43 am

Quoting Gulfstream650 (Reply 11):
As far as I am concerned (as a mere Private Pilot) that was a bloody good job.

Amen to that. He obviously landed short (I assume due to engine trouble), so it's not really his fault there was a ski ramp before that paved TWY/RWY ready to launch him. Threepointer or wheel landing, he was getting airborne again.
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garpd
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:53 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 10):
It would suggest a landing short of the marked runway.

Engine Problems did cause it.
The moment the video began, I could tell that engine was running rough.

Quote:
Engine problems caused a hard landing of "Miss Helen" at Duxford in July 2008

Taken from : http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p51.shtml

AAIB Report:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/...rican_p_51d_20_mustang__g_bixl.cfm



Quote:
Summary:
G-BIXL was on a final approach to land on a grass runway when the engine began to run roughly. The pilot advanced the throttle which led to a marked reduction in power. The aircraft touched down on the grass short of the runway but was forced back into the air when it crossed the lip of a raised taxiway. During the following touchdown and deceleration, the left main gear was damaged and the propeller hit the ground before the aircraft came to a halt. The cause of the rough running and power loss was not positively determined at the time of publication of this report.




[Edited 2011-01-07 17:02:50]
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KELPkid
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:01 am

In regards to the black puff of smoke observed from the powerplant, remember that in a piston aircraft, the mixture is at full rich on final approach. I don't think there was an engine failure involved here. It sounds like he have the throttle a little "blip" to arrest a high sink rate. I'm guessing the pilot probably yanked the mixture to cutoff on the landing rollout when it looked like he was about to have a prop strike at one point (and he came perilously close to having that happen).

Quoting rolfen (Reply 8):
So how do you explain him not putting power on the rebound

If it were merely a bounced landing, that is usually how you are taught to lessen the impact of the next bounce: blip the throttle when you are at the highest point in the bounce. It will keep you from bouncing the rest of the way down the runway. If it was just a bounced landing gone bad, then yes, the pilot demonstrated poor technique by not doing so.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:47 am

Quoting Garpd (Reply 15):

Engine Problems did cause it.
The moment the video began, I could tell that engine was running rough.

Which is exactly what I said here...

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 10):
Pretty sure it was producing power but it sounds sick to me. That puff of smoke and the resulting pop were probably a backfire...it happens...and it does sound pretty rough after that.

I've had it happen to me, granted not in a P-51, but on short final the engine bogged when I advanced the throttle. At that point I was committed to a landing short of my intended point (still well on the hard-surfaced runway though). I backed off the mixture a little bit and was able to tweak the final result.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
If it were merely a bounced landing, that is usually how you are taught to lessen the impact of the next bounce: blip the throttle when you are at the highest point in the bounce. It will keep you from bouncing the rest of the way down the runway. If it was just a bounced landing gone bad, then yes, the pilot demonstrated poor technique by not doing so.

When you don't have that option, or if the bounce is slight, the best option is to keep the stick fully aft through the bounce and take what you get. Which is what this pilot did.
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soon7x7
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:10 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 7):
With that speed he should have made a wheel landing.

Exactly...with or without power...he should have made a successful landing, he had enough air to drop his nose a bit to avoid stall...whats with the bounce?...aircraft outside pilots ability possibly?

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 17):
the best option is to keep the stick fully aft through the bounce and take what you get

That would be called a stall close to the ground...that equates to ...RIP...   
 
Cactus105
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting rolfen (Reply 8):
So how do you explain him not putting power on the rebound

In an airplane like this, with that much power, adding power from idle to full very quickly would most likely result in a rollover or loss of control due to the great amount of torque. It has happened in the P-51 before.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:09 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 18):
Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 17):
the best option is to keep the stick fully aft through the bounce and take what you get

That would be called a stall close to the ground...that equates to ...RIP...

That would be called incorrect.

Signed JBirdAV8r, CFII, tailwheel.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:24 am

Quoting Cactus105 (Reply 19):
In an airplane like this, with that much power, adding power from idle to full very quickly would most likely result in a rollover or loss of control due to the great amount of torque. It has happened in the P-51 before.

And you are right, that's a possiblity (again, never flown a P-51, but that's a pretty standard caveat for a big propeller-driven single), but it should be OK if the power application is smooth and deliberate. The best option to salvage the huge bounce on that landing would be to blip the throttle as KELPkid mentioned, reduce back pressure, and reconfigure for recontact, but that wasn't a viable option.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 18):
Quoting mcdu (Reply 7):
With that speed he should have made a wheel landing.

Exactly...with or without power...he should have made a successful landing, he had enough air to drop his nose a bit to avoid stall...whats with the bounce?...aircraft outside pilots ability possibly?

Umm....are we watching the same video?? He ran out of elevator authority very quickly...he wasn't that fast. If he'd have reduced the back pressure the nose would have just dropped faster and he would have wheelbarrowed.

BTW Soon7x7...not trying to be confrontational. Love your photogrpahy...big fan.

[Edited 2011-01-07 19:31:38]
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 18):
That would be called a stall close to the ground...that equates to ...RIP...   

Isn't every landing, a stall close to the ground? But yes, in a tailwheel, you can keep the stick full aft. May not be the best looking landing, but it should work out ok.

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boeingfixer
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting mcdu (Reply 7):
With that speed he should have made a wheel landing.
Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 18):
Exactly...with or without power...he should have made a successful landing, he had enough air to drop his nose a bit to avoid stall...whats with the bounce?...aircraft outside pilots ability possibly?

That's a very bold remark! And you have exactly how much time in high performance single engine piston powered fighters?

The P-51 requires power into the flare. Any reduction of power before the flare and your sink rate is going to increase. So, in this situation, dropping your nose would have just increased the sink rate further and put the aircraft and pilot into a potentially fatal nose down attitude.

From what I see in the video the pilot did a marvelous job of recovering from a very dangerous situation. It reflects the professional way in which the pilot was controlling this P-51.

To those who are making comments on the supposed "BOUNCE". Look at the video again. It wasn't a bounce. The P-51 settled after the hard landing and then was thrust airborne again when crossing the taxiway which had a positive grade towards the taxiway. This placed the aircraft and pilot into a different situation in which his recovery was, in my opinion, well executed.

Armchair critics are a plenty on this forum. P-51's don't perform like most single engine civil aircraft and most of the comments on this thread reflect this ignorance.

Just for info, I have had a flight in a P-51D and know a Mustang pilot personally who is in concurrence.

Ciao,

John
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N243NW
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RE: P-51 Rough Landing

Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:53 am

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 23):
That's a very bold remark! And you have exactly how much time in high performance single engine piston powered fighters?

To call the P-51 a high performance airplane is putting it mildly. I can't even imagine how different that airplane must be to fly than your typical 182 or Bonanza.

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 23):
To those who are making comments on the supposed "BOUNCE". Look at the video again. It wasn't a bounce. The P-51 settled after the hard landing and then was thrust airborne again when crossing the taxiway which had a positive grade towards the taxiway. This placed the aircraft and pilot into a different situation in which his recovery was, in my opinion, well executed.

Exactly. The pilot shouldn't have pitched the nose down, because at that point in time the aircraft was well below stall speed anyway and the altitude that would have been needed to regain sufficient airspeed exceeded the altitude available. At that point, you just pull back, hold on and brace for impact. It appears the pilot dealt with the situation in the best way he knew how.
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.

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