474218
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

F-35C Environmental Impact?

Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:49 pm

According to the following article the Navy has to file an Environmental Impact Study with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) before they can deploy the F-35C at their West Coast bases. Have we really go so far with this "protect the environment" stuff that we have some bureaucrat at the EPA have the final say if the military can actually use the weapons they have purchased? What happens if the EPA comes back and says the F-35C will disrupt the matting habits of some rear field mouse or that its engines could suck in an endangered butterfly?

Have we really gone that crazy?

http://mt-milcom.blogspot.com/2011/0...publishes-notice-of-intent-to.html
 
waketurbulence
Posts: 1264
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:33 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:35 am

Do you really think it is such a limited scope? Just because it says 'Environmental' doesn't mean they are talking about tree huggers. Having a large fleet deployed to either El Centro or Lemoore can effect the overall environment in terms of traffic from base personnel, noise, pollution, hazardous materials and removal, and yes even animal mating habits. Standard procedure and important for people who live near the base and help support the people working there.
-Matt
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:35 pm

Quoting 474218 (Thread starter):
According to the following article the Navy has to file an Environmental Impact Study with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) before they can deploy the F-35C at their West Coast bases.

Actually they may, or may not, have to produce an EIS depending on the scope of the project. What they do have to do is comply with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). That compliance is satisfied through one of three processes; an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS), an Environmental Assessment (EA), or a Categorical Exclusion (CE). You seem to be under the impression this is something new. A NEPA compliance requirement for any and all Federal Projects has been in effect for more than 40 years.

Quoting 474218 (Thread starter):
What happens if the EPA comes back and says the F-35C will disrupt the matting habits of some rear field mouse or that its engines could suck in an endangered butterfly?


The EPA does not decide such matters. The US Fish and Wildlife Service would be the appropriate agency to deal with those issues.

It seems pretty obvious that you know very little about this process, and that you are using this as an opportunity to go on an anti-environment political rant. It is amusing to me that people have such deeply held opinions about subjects that they know almost nothing about.

Quoting 474218 (Thread starter):
Have we really go so far with this "protect the environment" stuff that we have some bureaucrat at the EPA have the final say if the military can actually use the weapons they have purchased?


No. This is the sort of statement I'm talking about. You have come to a conclusion without any basis in fact. You have gone of the deep-end. If you're going to get all freaked out about stuff like this, do yourself a favor and learn something about the subject first.

[Edited 2011-02-03 08:43:21]
WhaleJets Rule!
 
474218
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:57 pm

So from the responses of waketurbulence and 11Brovo: I guess we have "gone that crazy" and are going to let an EPA or US Fish and Wildlife Service (Department of the Interior?) bureaucrat have the final say where the US Navy can base their newest aircraft!!!

I am sure glad that people whom think like these two were not around during WWII. Can you see the EPA or the US Fish and Wildlife Service signing off on a Environmental Impact Study for the A-Bomb test in Alamogordo, New Mexico?
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5547
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:00 pm

The majority of an EIS is things like safe disposal of hazardous chemicals from the aircraft maintenance, etc.

Not migratory birds or insects. Those have been covered in past EIS for the base. Much of the EIS will be updates of the old data and anything 'new' that the new aircraft brings into the base environment.

Sailors don't like their families living in toxic cesspools anymore than tree huggers do.
 
waketurbulence
Posts: 1264
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:33 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 3):

Are you really seriously thinking that an EIS will stop the F-35 (or any multi-billion $ government project) from being located where the government wants it located? The study will have a minimal impact if at all.

That said, it is good for the community to be apprised of these things, which is what the EIS does. Let me put it this way.....since you're so happy to let the government do anything and everything I propose they put up a nuclear power plant next to your house without doing an EIS or even telling you about it. It keeps it out of my backyard, and you won't complain about it at all.
-Matt
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:50 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 3):
So from the responses of waketurbulence and 11Brovo: I guess we have "gone that crazy" and are going to let an EPA or US Fish and Wildlife Service (Department of the Interior?) bureaucrat have the final say where the US Navy can base their newest aircraft!!!

That just isn't the case. Your statement is a falsehood
WhaleJets Rule!
 
474218
Topic Author
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting waketurbulence (Reply 5):
Are you really seriously thinking that an EIS will stop the F-35 (or any multi-billion $ government project) from being located where the government wants it located? The study will have a minimal impact if at all.


Then why waste the "taxpayers money" doing a study that will be disregarded no matter what the outcome.

Then this is just another example of "governments out of control spending".
 
TGIF
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:01 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:17 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
Then why waste the "taxpayers money" doing a study that will be disregarded no matter what the outcome.

Who said it will be disregarded?

You have to understand that there are other options as the outcome than the two you're thinking of, Yes to F-35C or No to F-35C. The study might show that there will be an increase of waste X and Y, and this must be handled using procedures A and B. Or it might come to the conclusion that the noise pollution from aircrafts landing and taking off using the current pattern is unacceptable and that new patterns, holding points etc must be introduced.

The result from the study may not be just black or white.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:49 am

Quoting 474218 (Thread starter):
Have we really gone that crazy?

It may seem crazy when you put it as you do, but as someone who is an acquisitions officer with the Air Force (and on the F-35 program for that matter), I can tell you that "Environmental Impact" is now part of every acquisition program we undertake. We have to consider environmental impacts procurement and disposal, the environmental impact during operations, hazardous material that could leak into and affect the environment if one crashed, and many other factors. The study will also investigate alternative options, if any, and whether or not to do anything about the described potential impacts.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
txjim
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:44 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:43 pm

Just to add to the conversation, one must remember a couple things. First, not all of the EPA staff are headline-seeking tree-huggers. My wife works for the Emergency Response branch and, among other things, was responsible for the group that located and and was prepared to decontaminate Shuttle debris in East Texas. I've seen a couple of sites her group worked on and, believe me, you want an agency available to handle this sort of thing unless your state's agency is really on the ball (some are, some are not).

Second, Military bases have areas that are among the most contaminated places in the US and many decommissioned bases require a great deal of expensive cleanup to return to civilian use. FlyDeltaJets87 has better information than I do but it does make sense to try keep things in check now rather than have to apply a very expensive correction in the future.

The impact statement is probably something that states that the base has appropriate spill response and methods of containing waste fluids.
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:12 pm

Quoting txjim (Reply 10):
The impact statement is probably something that states that the base has appropriate spill response and methods of containing waste fluids.

I would also add that an EIS considers and evaluates a number of factors that most people are unaware of. A typical EIS must consider the following subjects in detail:

Impacts to T&E Species
Air/Water Quality Impacts
Impacts to Historic and Cultural Sites
Social and Economic Impacts to Local Communities
Detailed Cost Analysis for Each Alternative

Many people who get all spun-up about the NEPA process simply do not understand its purpose or the process. It's one of those many things in life that is complex and doesn't lend itself to simplistic black/white thinking.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
kingairta
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:24 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:35 pm

When my squadron of C-130s moved from Moffett FAF to Pt. Mugu we had to do an EIS. Nevermind the fact we were taking over VXE-6s old spaces who also used C-130s.
 
wvsuperhornet
Posts: 517
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:18 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:14 pm

Quoting 474218 (Thread starter):
Have we really gone that crazy?

our politicians have....
 
canoecarrier
Posts: 2569
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 1:20 pm

RE: F-35C Environmental Impact?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:42 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
Then why waste the "taxpayers money" doing a study that will be disregarded no matter what the outcome.

Then this is just another example of "governments out of control spending".

It's a major federal action, therefore it has to comply with NEPA. NEPA's been around since 1970, this isn't new. I could just rehash all that 11Bravo has said, but he knows what he's talking about so I'd listen to him. Take a look at the Federal Register NEPA is done on everything from expansions of naval facilities, high speed rail, solar energy projects, to....airport improvement projects.
The beatings will continue until morale improves

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests