Jana
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Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:13 am

A Royal Netherlands Navy Lynx helicopter, stationed on the H.M. Tromp fregat, failed in an evacuation attemp in Libya last Sunday. The helicopter went to Sirte (Libya) to evacuate Dutch citizens but was caputered by Khadaffi's forces. Three Dutch marines are taken hostage, the Lynx is in Libya's hands. The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own... Maybe this giant error will cost the Dutch Minister of Defence his job, my thoughts...


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[Edited 2011-03-03 00:17:19]
 
tu204
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:38 am

From a judicial stand point, they violated Libyan airspace and were detained for that reason.
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bj87
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:07 am

Here is a BBC article about the incident: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12633415

First of all it is nice to see the Dutch government finally growing a set of balls and do something to get the last Dutch citizens out of the country. Even though it is causing a political nightmare.

That said there would have been hell to pay if they sat there and did nothing, so they had to do something, too bad it went belly up.

Quoting Jana (Thread starter):
The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own...

They probably had air support from the ship but once you are on the ground you are on your own. The ship can shoot down a seagull 500 miles away but some armed men on the ground right next to friendlies is a bit more tricky.

With the massive budget cuts the Dutch Armed Forces are having to deal with there probably isn't any money left to send a second ship with another helicopter to give air born support. (maybe the Dutch government will now figure out that a shoe string budged military is pretty much useless)

Anyway kudos to the crew for trying this and I hope they are doing well and find their way back to the ship soon.

As far as the helicopter goes, they are going to be replaced anyway and scrapping them will cost money so this is a cheaper way of getting writ of them. 

This will be the Lynx replacement.


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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:09 am

The Dutch prime minister has confirmed this news, and that this mission was approved by his government.

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 1):
From a judicial stand point, they violated Libyan airspace and were detained for that reason.

Very true, the word 'hostage' is premature. But they could become hostages in case of further Western action.

Quoting Jana (Thread starter):


[quote=Jana,reply=0]The latest news is that here was no air support for the Lynx and so it seems that it fully operated in its own...

What kind of air support did you have in mind?

Quoting Jana (Thread starter):
Maybe this giant error will cost the Dutch Minister of Defence his job, my thoughts...

Why? I'd say either the refugees didn't keep their mouth shut, or Western intelligence in general wasn't up to date with the situation in Sirte.
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LAXintl
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:17 pm

Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.
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F27Friendship
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:28 pm

Here is my theory:

-The Dutch government has had quite close diplomatic ties with Libya since the Afriqiyah crash in Tripoli last year (where most passengers who died where Dutch nationals).

-The Royal Netherlands Air Force has airlifted out Dutch nationals with a KDC-10 and C-130 at at least two occasions, from Tripoli, in cooperation with the Libyan government.

-The "clandestine" evacuations performed by the Royal Air Force and German Air Force (among others), took place in the eastern part of Libya, which is more or less under rebel control (at least no longer by the government in Tripoli), in the desert (thus remote) with multiple large transport aircraft, carrying platoons of special forces to secure the LZ.

There is no way, that the Royal Netherlands Navy, would send a single Lynx Helicopter with only the basic crew (2 pilots and 1 gunner), without any marines, in the middle of Sirte (a large urban area), which is the home town of Ghadaffi and thus a government stronghold, to pick up just 2 individuals, had they not received clearance from the Lybian authorities (hence the description consular evacuation operation).

Had they not received clearance from the Lybian authorities,

-Sirte would have been considered too risky to go to in the first place.

-If for whatever reason they were ordered to go to Sirte anyway, they would have gone with at least a platoon of marines to secure the LZ as is the normal operational procedure when operating a chopper in hostile environment, probably with additional air support provided by another chopper (perhaps from another allied nation).

What I fear that has happened is a complete mis-calculation by Dutch diplomacy, who were thinking they could still rely on their personal contacts with the Libyan authorities, while other European/NATO countries were already evacuating without permission their citizens, and are openly discussing air strikes on Libyia and/or a no-fly zone.

I believe the Dutch government has received the clearance to pick up the 2 individuals per chopper, where the Libyian government has decided to use it as a trap, since it would be quite a good moment to "capture" a foreign military chopper and crew for:

-internal propaganda
-collateral when foreign intervention is becoming more likely by the hour

just my humble opinion..
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:53 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):
I believe the Dutch government has received the clearance to pick up the 2 individuals per chopper, where the Libyian government has decided to use it as a trap, since it would be quite a good moment to "capture" a foreign military chopper and crew for:

-internal propaganda
-collateral when foreign intervention is becoming more likely by the hour

just my humble opinion..

My guess is you are right.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):

Interesting analysis. I didn't consider that Sirt was fully under government control.
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NoUFO
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.

Britain and Germany (and I think France as well) did exactly the same. All of them secretly evacuated their people that were still in Libya, only where they wise enough to land at some unnamed strips in eastern Libya, a region controlled by the rebels.
Besides, I don't think the American (and Italian?) ships are not only waiting for better weather but also for an official admission to land.
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 8):
Britain and Germany (and I think France as well) did exactly the same. All of them secretly evacuated their people that were still in Libya, only where they wise enough to land at some unnamed strips in eastern Libya, a region controlled by the rebels.
Besides, I don't think the American (and Italian?) ships are not only waiting for better weather but also for an official admission to land.

The assault ship the US sent is full of V-22's which are perfect for the mission my guess is your right once they get in position they will be flying soon.
 
DALCE
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:55 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Imo its rather stupid move by Dutch and other nations that feel they can just go barging into other nations as they wish without respect for sovereignty.

Something US marines have been doing for the past couple of decades all over the world....
If you don't know the facts, don't justice.
It appears to be a stupid action, agree, but what were circumstances, was there clearance, were agreements made. Did the Lynx go tech...( could be, we don't know. I only know they are old and worn)
There are so many factors we can't judge, so don't please. I just hope the guys will come back in good health.
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:54 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 7):
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):

Interesting analysis. I didn't consider that Sirt was fully under government control.

Sirt is AFAIK the hometown of the Ghadaffi clan and he seems to have strong following there (remember that tribal affiliations are still quite important in Libya).

Jan
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:17 am

Word is the people that needed airlifting out were western intelligence operators and that evacuation was needed quickly. Why else send a helicopter if the Libyan governement is assisting foreigners to leave the country (as has been done with these two people)?

There's more to this case, as this happened already on Sunday, but only came out on Wednesday-evening, which happened to be an election night. The government will be asked if she kept it quiet for electorial reasons, rather than for the safety of the airmen. Would the rescue be succesfull it would be nice PR for the elections, now it wasn't, so people are suggesting that's why it was kept quiet.

Now, normally I'll use my tinfoil hat for this kind of stories, and I use it this time as well, but I do feel it needs a proper investigation when the pilots are safely back home.

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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:25 pm

If the Libyan government agreed to this trip, the Dutch aren't saying so. Maltese airline Medavia still runs a daily flight into Sirte... It's a strange story.

The rendezvous point was the beach. Two of the Lynx crew are female. This is the airframe involved.

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TheCol
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:52 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 1):
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):



Let's be realistic...

Gaddafi has committed numerous acts of war against the West since 1972. Therefore Libyan sovereignty became fair game a long time ago. That being said, the bottom line: each nation has the right to protect it's citizens from crimes against humanity. As I pointed out before, the international community is taking a huge risk by evacuating their citizens without sufficient protection. It it obvious from his past history that Gaddafi will not hesitate to shoot down planes and capture, and most likely execute, foriegn nationals. The Libyan regieme will continue to be a menace to the international community unless Gaddafi and Co. are killed or dragged all the way to the Hauge for trial.
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:44 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):

My guess is you are right.

My guess he is talking claptrap. If the Libyans DID agree on this mission and used it as a trap, there would be no reason for the Dutch government to be silent about it. They would have a great case at the UN. The fact that they remain totally silent and try to solve things diplomatically, tells me they damn well realize they screwed up.
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bennett123
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:02 pm

IMO executions would be kinda dumb.

Certainly unless/until they win this fight.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 15):

I agree that this theory is unlikely now, but then it was just a theory.
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:00 pm

Dutch top-diplomat is to arrive today in Tripoli to negotiate the release of the captured helicopter crew... Curious what the price will be? A room with a view in Scheveningen-prison for our friend Khadaffi?  

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Oroka
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:40 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 18):
Curious what the price will be?

It should be 'hand the crew and helo over, or we are going to destroy every place you and your mercs may be hiding. Oh btw our airforce and 5 000 troops are already on the way.'
 
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:22 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 19):
It should be 'hand the crew and helo over, or we are going to destroy every place you and your mercs may be hiding. Oh btw our airforce and 5 000 troops are already on the way.'

I agree, but I don't see that happening.

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wvsuperhornet
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting dalce (Reply 10):
Something US marines have been doing for the past couple of decades all over the world....
If you don't know the facts, don't justice.
It appears to be a stupid action, agree, but what were circumstances, was there clearance, were agreements made. Did the Lynx go tech...( could be, we don't know. I only know they are old and worn)
There are so many factors we can't judge, so don't please. I just hope the guys will come back in good health.

I agree we have been doing it for years like the US the Dutch have the right to keep their citizens safe and take them out of harms way no matter where they are at.
 
GDB
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:53 pm

Well at least they were on a properly defined mission, unlike last weekend's ill thought out attempt to hook up with rebel leaders with British 'Diplomatic Staff' (That's MI6 really).
Needing an escort of Special Forces - who were, before the Libya crisis are busier than at any time since WW2 as it is.
Without telling who they were to meet with, coming in on a bloody great helicopter - who the rebels might well assume was one of Gadaffi's. When they could have left HMS York down the gangplank.
Luckily the SF guys showed commendable restraint preventing something much worse than a few days detention.
Sent as they were on a fools errand - or rather sent by fools. This would have been sanctioned from the very top.

They returned via HMS Cumberland from Libya.
 
bennett123
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:16 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

The Dutch are still OK (see 1834).
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Eventhough I now think my theory is probably not what has happened, making it public will not help one bit (more so since the Libyian delegation at the UN has already changed sides). Dutch diplomacy is silent diplomacy.

But I have to agree, it now really seems someone in the Dutch government or MoD or even at the operational command level did something really, really stupid. I just hope and pray our people get home soon.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:21 pm

According to the Libyan State TV station the Dutch military personnel taken captive during the incident are to be released today. Dutch TV reports at present that the Dutch State Department has not yet confirmed this, though many media stations are reporting that this information is quite reliable.

Edit at 18:57 hours European Time: The son of Khadaffi has now openly confirmed this news. The handover could take place still today.

This was just broadcasted in a special extra news broadcast on Dutch television.

[Edited 2011-03-10 09:59:45]
 
bennett123
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:37 pm

According to the BBC link, the Dutch are going home, (see 1608, 1743, 1950 and 2007).

However, the Lynx is staying in Libya for now.
 
DALCE
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:44 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 26):
the Lynx is staying in Libya for now.

perhaps we get their Mirages now  
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:17 am

Dutch marines arrived at 5 a.m. in Athens, flown in by a C-130 of the Greek Air Force. They are being debriefed in Athens and will continue home to The Netherlands probably tomorrow.

According to our Minister of Foreign Affairs, no money was paid and no promises were made to the regime. We got help from Maltese and Greek officials during the negotiations. Now that the marines are safe, an investigation will start on how this could have happened, however not everything will be made public due to the interest to our national security. A lot of information will be shared with our intelligence committee in parliament.

Good that our marines are safe again!

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GDB
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:38 pm

Good to know they are out of there.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:42 pm

a great relief!

however, here some audio recordings which suggest the lynx had made several pick-ups before they were caught:

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1389141/6843b7c1/lynx_audio.html

Maltese ATC is asking if they are going back to Tripoli
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:27 pm

I guess few people still bother about this, but the Dutch govt sent a report to parliament, and it seems Jana in post #1 was correct after all - lots of silly errors seem to have been made. While no permission was obtained, the flight was planned with poor intelligence and secrecy, and its urgency remains doutbful. It also seems that the helicopter crew still landed even though there were more people waiting on the beach than there should have been.

Well, I just hope we won't see the Lynx in action with Gaddafi's forces.
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Severnaya
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:41 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31):
I guess few people still bother about this, but the Dutch govt sent a report to parliament

Yeah and rumor is that still many things aren't in the report that should have been in it, and then i'm referring to the TV broadcast last night (MAR21) from Nieuwsuur (NL2) which had an interview with the Swedish lady (a teacher).

Sorry but I don't buy it that they're sending a Lynx into hostile area to liberate a teacher from another country and a engineer. Those 2 persons could have easily gone back to Europe with the aircraft from Bosnia & Herzegovina.

I still think the other two persons were a cover-up for someone more important.
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:00 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 31):
Well, I just hope we won't see the Lynx in action with Gaddafi's forces

The aircraft with probably be tracked by intel, and taken out by an air strike, equipment can be replaced as long as the personnel are okay and safe then it is a good day.
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:26 pm

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 33):
The aircraft with probably be tracked by intel, and taken out by an air strike

Maybe, or maybe not.
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 34):
Maybe, or maybe not.

You would never want your own weapons system used against you, or against your allies, or innocent civilians.
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:57 am

[quote=hercppmx,reply=35][/

Intelligence ops and air strikes are known to fail sometimes, that's what I meant.
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:20 am

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 32):
I still think the other two persons were a cover-up for someone more important.

Agreed. There are still a lot of questions to be answered by the cabinet. They will probably do so, but not in public in parliament, but probably in the intelligence committee.

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hercppmx
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:32 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 36):
Intelligence ops and air strikes are known to fail sometimes, that's what I meant.

Sort of like the operation that got the Helo and Personnel there in the first place?
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:04 pm

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 38):
Sort of like the operation that got the Helo and Personnel there in the first place?

That operation was just stupid, apparently, as I've already pointed out. I've no idea why you are arguing with me. I hope that the Allies manage to destroy the chopper if there's any indication that Khadafi might use it.
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hercppmx
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:21 pm

That last comment was suppose to be more of a joke, I wasn't trying to argue there. As someone who just got out of the military I'm well aware that things don't always go as planned.
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:25 pm

Quoting hercppmx (Reply 40):

OK, cheers  
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:36 pm

Any news on the Lynx?

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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:38 pm

Dutch news media report the Lynx landed hundreds of metres off the designated spot, right in front of Khadafi's local 'palace'. LOL.
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:36 am

Has this Lynx been destroyed, or is she flying (low level?) missions for Gadaffi & Co?

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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 44):
Has this Lynx been destroyed, or is she flying (low level?) missions for Gadaffi & Co?

A newspaper published a satellite photo, it's simply still at the beach.
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:09 pm

Has the Lynx been recovered? Has she been used by Gadaffi?
Would the Dutch want their chopper back?


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LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 46):
Has the Lynx been recovered? Has she been used by Gadaffi?
Would the Dutch want their chopper back?

No, the helicopter has not been recovered, or used since it's landing on the beach. The Lynx won't be coming back home either, we have given up on it. It's not worth the hassle.

Cheers!   
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:18 pm

So it's still on that beach?

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 47):
he Lynx won't be coming back home either, we have given up on it.

Says who?

With the NH-90s not fititng in the ships and other minor problems, why not recover it if possible.

[Edited 2011-08-25 06:19:54]
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RE: Dutch Lynx And 3 Marines Captured In Libya

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:45 am

They're supposedly bombing Sirte now, maybe Khadaffi will escape in our Lynx 
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