wingscrubber
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Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:44 pm

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/03/eurofighter_nao_analysis/

I chanced upon this scathing article by the Register(which I don't normally read) on the Typhoon program, making various bold claims such as the following:

-The Typhoon is more expensive than the F-22
-The Typhoon is not maneuverable
-Tranche 1 Typhoons will be retired soon
-Typhoons coverted to bombers will be retired within 3 years
-Cost of Typhoon fleet is equivalent to two NASA space shuttle fleets
-As a side note, they claim the Tornado F3 was 'dismal'

As a British expat living in the US, I am somewhat embarassed by the current state of the RAF, laying off cadet pilots, implementing crippling defence cuts, retiring some of the most capable and serviceable aircraft in its inventory and cancelling much-needed modernisation programs; Harrier, MRA-4, and the british military aerospace industry does have a history of shooting itself in the foot; TSR2, SR53, Blue steel, etc with a few rare exceptions that were good enough to export; T-45, AV-8, but I had thought that the Typhoon program was a relative success, a highly capable euro-indiginous 4.5th gen fighter program?

According to this extreme right-wing article, the entire program is just a big pork barrel and the RAF should have just bought American instead (not that the F-22 is for sale), but meanwhile they're still waiting for F-35s!
If the RAF had bought american instead of investing in the development of this very capable soon-to-be-multi-role platform, they would likely be flying F-16s or F-18s, but the Typhoon will soon match their capability, and has been more successful than other competing euro-designs like the Gripen and Rafale with sales outside of the consortium of participating nations to Saudi Arabia and Austria totalling 87 aircraft worth approximately 7.8 billion euros. That's pretty good right?

Is there any credence to this article, or is it all right-wing bullsh*t?
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GDB
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:02 pm

Well those of a political bent you say that are behind this BS, have a vested interest of slating anything not American, as you noted, a mix of disparagement and xenophobia.
These after all the same types who boldly claim, with the confidence that comes with proud ignorance, that if a certain Stephen Hawking had been left to the horrors of that evil British Commie Health Service, he'd had died decades ago.
(Obviously one of the preeminent scientific minds alive HAS to be American).

So I'd take that article with the same amount of salt that you should the above.
(Sad really, this sort of thing is so rooted in the insecurity of those espousing it).

You say you are in the US, so presumably you see this sort of stuff way beyond the subject of this article?

It's rather like those chain e-mails that circulate, such as the ones which boldly stated that of course that AF A330 crash in 2009 was clearly the result of inherent flaws in the way Airbus build aircraft.
Or that the incident at Airbus, where that customer crew managed to, during an engine run, ram a brand new A340-600 into a concrete wall totalling the aircraft.
You do know that the whole thing was covered up in the 'European media', who did not report on the incident at all (news to me and everyone else who saw it reported), because they are SOOOOO scared that the Muslim world would take the implication of an incompetent Arab crew, that they feared it would incite terrorist attacks in an already terrified and cowering Europe.

That article, the ones I've cited above, good for a laugh and saying much more about their originators than their dull brains could comprehend.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:20 pm

Nowhere in the original report a phrase like "even worse" is used:
This is what I read in the original paper (not the article):

Quote:

Main findings
The capability Typhoon provides

Typhoon is performing important operational tasks
The 70 Typhoons already in service are protecting the air space around the 4 United Kingdom and the Falkland Islands. Typhoon was conceived in the 1980s during the Cold War, mainly for use as an air-to-air fighter and the aircraft is highly capable in this role. But the operational environment has changed significantly, making the ground attack role more important and so the Department is upgrading Typhoon to become a fully multi-role aircraft which can conduct both air-to-air and ground attack missions.

The full multi-role capability will not be available for some years
In 2004, the Department decided to withdraw its Jaguar aircraft. In the same year, 5 it decided to spend £119 million to upgrade its early Typhoons to replace the Jaguar’s ground attack capability. The upgrade was successfully introduced in July 2008. In 2009, a corporate decision was taken to retire early the other air defence fighter, the Tornado F3, to save money. As a result, Typhoon aircraft have been prioritised to take over the air defence role that the Tornado F3 fulfilled. The Department can currently deploy a small number of Typhoon multi-role aircraft but in the majority of cases, such as Afghanistan, the Tornado GR4 remains the Department’s preferred ground attack aircraft. Newer Typhoon aircraft will have progressively enhanced multi-role capability with, for example, laser guided Paveway IV bombs and Storm Shadow cruise missiles by 2018. By this time Typhoon is likely to be the aircraft of choice for both ground attack and air defence.

The report quotes problems with spare parts (which is news to me) and and a naive approach to cost estimates during Eurofighter's development (which is old news).
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garysted
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:43 pm

Gents,

I'm familiar enough with Mr Page's previous work to know the sort of selective, agenda led pieces that he has put out in the past, which relies on the readership swallowing it without thinking how the 'facts' have been slanted. However, and I really do hate to even be seen to be agreeing with anything he's written, he has - inbetween the rhetoric and silly sniping - stumbled across a couple of points that are quite fair, and deserve some form of explanation.

The block 5 upgrade; what really was the point to this? Even leaving aside the the Tranche one withdrawal issue for the moment. It had been stated by the goverment that the minimum force level for the UK air defence and associated commitments was five squadron's back in the late 90's, and this was before the resurrection of Russian long range flights into the UKADR and before anybody thought that AD assets would be required for anti-terrorist operations over the UK. With the accelerated withdrawal of the F-3, the embryonic Typhoon fleet had it's hands full working up a air-defence capability, a role which was always initally planned to be achieved first by all the Typhoon partner nations, which was presumably budgeted for and a timeline agreed.

Then suddenly the RAF wants a early, basic air-to-ground fit on the aircraft, which hasn't previously been intended and was not required by any other partner at that stage. This, again presumably, adds cost and puts a extra strain and distraction on a small force force attempting to reach inital capability in the AD role to replace the fast disappearing F-3 on QRA. The anticipated deployment of XI Sqn to Afghanistan to replace the Harrier force then never happened and the GR4 went instead. At the time (2008) the RAF possessed seven frontline Tornado GR4 units, roled for mud moving and also with a readily available recce capability, which were eventually, and rather obviously eventually deployed instead.

Why was the Typhoon deployment even considered and resources spent on preparing for it? Was it industry pushing so they could put a 'combat proven' badge on the marketing brochure or the MoD/RAF being panicked by ill informed media stories into trying to much too soon with the aircraft in response to the criticism?

Whenever or not my suggestions are accurate or not, the block 5 upgrade seems a unnecessary waste of money, and early Tranche one aircraft are still even now going through Warton (one returned to Coningsby this week after upgrade). If these stories of early Tranche one withdrawal are accurate, and with no air-to-ground deployment now intended for these aircraft in such a short lifetime, then this is surely a wasted effort.

This leads onto the second point - the withdrawal of Tranche one early. I've read various articles that hint at what that 'obsolescence issue' actually is, but nothing from a particularly reliable or detailed source. If it turns out that it is actually true, then I think Mr Page is probably correct in his comments on that issue, nor will he be the the only one. I still wonder how accurate that story was, as nothing has been said that I know of about this from the other operators, and it was always stated for many years that all aircraft would be upgraded to the latest standard during the aircrafts service life, now suddenly Tranche one has a built in obsolescence issue that's so bad the aircraft have to be withdrawn, and nobody saw it coming until late last year. Something doesn't sound very plausible there, even for the MoD.

I'm mostly playing devils advocate above, as with proper funding and support, I don't see any reason why the aircraft cannot excel at both roles, if the will to make it happen is there.

Gary

[Edited 2011-03-05 13:44:44]

[Edited 2011-03-05 13:53:31]
 
wingscrubber
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:44 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 1):
You say you are in the US, so presumably you see this sort of stuff way beyond the subject of this article?

I do, but this article doesn't originate in the US, 'the register' is a .co.uk domain, so it's domestic criticism along the typical lines of 'look how much money labour made us spend'.

From my vantage point, the Typhoon is a great airplane. The Harrier was a great airplane, the MRA4 would have been a great airplane. It's just disappointing to see the UK military air power continually weakening.
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GDB
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:35 am

Lewis Page? Now there's a name!
What to say about this disgruntled ex MoD employee?
Well even the not well informed/sniffing for a scandal press don't seem to use him so much as a source these days.

The man has no credibility - at all.

Garysted, thanks for an excellent and very informative post.
Should we also throw in the disruption to the RAF procurement thrown up by the Saudi order too?

My own view is that say two squadrons, at each of the main UK bases, should retain Trance 1's in a basic AD role, let the others with the more suitable later Tranches do the whole swing role thing, some of which will of course be to supplement the AD dedicated aircraft.

I also think that the Typhoon procurement has be somewhat misguided in that years ago, the replacement of half the Tornado GR.4 fleet should have been the intention, with Tranche 3 aircraft, doing this by keeping to the original numbers of Typhoons intended.
By 2015, The rest of the GR.4's going after replacement by BAE Mantis drones and finally, the last two units disbanding by 2018 prior to forming up as F-35C units.
When the costs of maintaining the GR.4 force through to 2020 emerged in last year's review process, it just struck me as a waste of money on a still capable, though very finite asset, when considerably less than that could have allowed the suggestions just mentioned.

It's not as if they'd have to invest in a whole lot of expensive new weapons to carry, ALARM, Storm Shadow, Brimstone, RAPTOR pod, new LGB's, just integrate them on to Typhoons, which they are going to have to do anyway. (Or will they?)

Having said that, in 1981 the then Defence Secretary, John Nott, stated that if stand off weapons are not brought for the Tornado fleet, then just entering service, the 'development of the aircraft will have been wasted.' Not that he did anything about it.
Only in 1991, rushed into service for the Gulf War, did Tornado get ALARM, over a decade would pass after that when they got (rushed into service for the 2003 Iraq war) Storm Shadow - 21 years after Tornado entered service, then after that, 25 years after entering service, did RAF Tornados get Brimstone. To fill an air launched anti armour missile requirement first mooted in 1978.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting Wingscrubber (Thread starter):
Is there any credence to this article, or is it all right-wing bullsh*t?

To be honest I don't know alot about the Euro-fighter but from what I have seen in articles and posts around various aircraft board the only aircraft that is better was the F-22. As far as saving money yes europe and the US would have been smart to both develop the F-22 and the F-35 together but since it didnt happen. So I would say most of its right-wing b/s we have the same thing over here with the F-22 with people saying the stealth doesnt work when it rains if it sthe case most pilots who have flown it say it doesnt really matter if it works or not its still a magnificant aircraft and would be hard to shoot down. So being from across the pond I would take the article with a grain of salt.
 
BMI727
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:33 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
the US would have been smart to both develop the F-22 and the F-35 together but since it didnt happen.

No. The US would have been smart to develop the F-22 and then design a real light fighter and a real attack aircraft.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
speedygonzales
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:08 am

el Reg should stick to tech news, which they do fairly well. Their political editorials have been 'out there' on more than one occation.
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sebolino
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
To be honest I don't know alot about the Euro-fighter but from what I have seen in articles and posts around various aircraft board the only aircraft that is better was the F-22.

I found that.
I absolutely don't know if it's true or not, maybe someone can answer ...


http://airforces.fr/2009/12/20/rafale-vs-typhooneurofighter/
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:02 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
No. The US would have been smart to develop the F-22 and then design a real light fighter and a real attack aircraft.

no arguments here I always thought that the US should have had the F-15,F-14 for fighters and the F-16,F-18 for attack and the F-20 for a light fighter for the 4th generations aircraft.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:26 am

Quoting Wingscrubber (Thread starter):


-1)The Typhoon is more expensive than the F-22


-2)The Typhoon is not maneuverable


-3)Tranche 1 Typhoons will be retired soon


-4)Typhoons coverted to bombers will be retired within 3 years


-5)Cost of Typhoon fleet is equivalent to two NASA space shuttle fleets




1) The F-22 costs roughly 361 million $ per plane according to US Government Accountability Office (GAO)

Typhoon costs roughly 190 million $ according to the National Audit Office(newest data available)


2) Interesting, as the only plane with the capability of flying 9 g maneuvers in the
supersonic range that is new to me.
(Source) http://www.luftwaffe.de/fileserving/...0INFODE/Pressemappe_Neuburg_en.pdf



3) Depends to the RAF needs.


4) Nonsense


5) LMAO

Utter nonsense.

Quoting Wingscrubber (Thread starter):
If the RAF had bought american instead of investing in the development of this very capable soon-to-be-multi-role platform, they would likely be flying F-16s or F-18s, but the Typhoon will soon match their capability, and has been more successful than other competing euro-designs like the Gripen and Rafale with sales outside of the consortium of participating nations to Saudi Arabia and Austria totalling 87 aircraft worth approximately 7.8 billion euros.

Do you mean the capability as CAS plane or generally spoken? The F-16,F-18,F-15, Gripen, Mirage etc.. cannot beat the Typhoon in the air/air combat.

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 6):
To be honest I don't know alot about the Euro-fighter but from what I have seen in articles and posts around various aircraft board the only aircraft that is better was the F-22.

Correct. However the Typhoon has in some areas advantages over the F-22.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
GDB
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:22 am

A recent news report seems to indicate that Tranche 1's could be retired in 2019.
Still rather soon, they'd be mostly around 15 years old, however it is true that a very major upgrade to full Tranche 2 would be in the same cost range as buying new.
2019 should see F-35's arriving to make up the numbers, we'll have to see, the temptation will be with government to save money sooner that that. Whatever happens with the crisis in Libya might have concentrated minds.
(A case for a rapid Urgent Operational Requirement to integrate ALARM anti radar missiles on to the RAF Typhoon fleet?)
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:05 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 11):
The F-16,F-18,F-15, Gripen, Mirage etc.. cannot beat the Typhoon in the air/air combat.

ouf.. excersizes between several European air forces have shown otherwise.

Besides, it's not only about the plane. I believe in several dog fighting classes, instructors fly F-5s or even T-38s against students in F-16s, F-15s etc.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:33 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 13):
ouf.. excersizes between several European air forces have shown otherwise

Do you mean the very doubtful fight against the Rafale?

Quote:

During Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Training, involving different types of aircraft. In this situation, where the air dominance is a matter, the Eurofighter Typhoons turned out to be the leading air-to-air fighter jets.

In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation “against” the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to "shoot down" four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets.
Quote:

During the exercise "Typhoon Meet" held in 2008, Eurofighters flew against F/A-18 Hornets, Mirage F1s, Harriers and F-16s in a mock combat exercise. The Eurofighters won all engagements (even outnumbered 8 vs 27) without suffering losses
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:00 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 14):
Do you mean the very doubtful fight against the Rafale?

no, I'm referring to friendly excersizes that were not published about where a particular European Air Force was pitting 2 typhoons with mildly experienced pilots against 2 american-designed jets of another European Air Force with 30 years of experience of the type and very experienced pilots. The typhoons had no chance in this particular case.

Although on paper the typhoon is a winner in most of the aerodynamic domain, that doesn't mean there is a part of the envelop where an initially inferior aircraft cannot force a victory. I've seen many so called "dog-house" plots where several fighters are compared, especially to determine the right strategy to defeat an aircraft which essentially is a better fighter.

The machine is just one part of the equation, so you can never write: " The F-16,F-18,F-15, Gripen, Mirage etc.. cannot beat the Typhoon in the air/air combat."
 
wingman
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:22 pm

If that Rafale story is true I don't see what the worry is for the RAF. Based on the numbers the UK would really only need about 40-50 fully functional Typhoons to defend NATO airspace against a combined air assault by Russia and China simultaneously.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 16):
If that Rafale story is true I don't see what the worry is for the RAF. Based on the numbers the UK would really only need about 40-50 fully functional Typhoons to defend NATO airspace against a combined air assault by Russia and China simultaneously.

Hey, Canada defends its airspace with around 60 fighters and we are the second largest country in the world by land size.
 
GST
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:12 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):

The machine is just one part of the equation, so you can never write: " The F-16,F-18,F-15, Gripen, Mirage etc.. cannot beat the Typhoon in the air/air combat."

   Its just a shame the people with agendas neglect to remember this when writing their scathing comments about Aircraft X.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 17):

Hey, Canada defends its airspace with around 60 fighters and we are the second largest country in the world by land size.

Incidentally, how does that work? Are there QRA fighters with range to intercept anywhere the Russians can reach? I guess the south border doesn't really require alert fighter protection, at least not since 1812.
 
spudh
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:14 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
no, I'm referring to friendly excersizes that were not published about where a particular European Air Force was pitting 2 typhoons with mildly experienced pilots against 2 american-designed jets of another European Air Force with 30 years of experience of the type and very experienced pilots. The typhoons had no chance in this particular case.

Although on paper the typhoon is a winner in most of the aerodynamic domain, that doesn't mean there is a part of the envelop where an initially inferior aircraft cannot force a victory. I've seen many so called "dog-house" plots where several fighters are compared, especially to determine the right strategy to defeat an aircraft which essentially is a better fighter.

The machine is just one part of the equation, so you can never write: " The F-16,F-18,F-15, Gripen, Mirage etc.. cannot beat the Typhoon in the air/air combat."

There are lots of variables as you say, with ROE's and tactics being particularly big ones for excercise.

In the run up to the famous AIMVAL/ACEVAL exercises in 1977 the, then new, block 90 F14's were mauling the F5 aggressors until a Top Gun instructor who had been an F14 RIO before his posting to Miramar came to their assistance. Just before the evaluation proper the aggressors changed their tactics using the RIO's inside knowledge of the AWG 9's operation, strengths and weaknesses (using doppler effect etc). Of course what worked against the F14 worked just even better against the single seat F15. The net effect was the then earth shatterring 1:1 exchange ratio between the much vaunted high end fighters against the cheap and cheerful F5 in multi fghter engagements.

Up until that change in tactics the F14's (and presumably the F15 too) were tatooing the F5's for fun. But history records the 1:1 ratio as the outcome of AIMVAL/ACEVAL and the need for a lightweight fighter was confirmed.

ROE's and Tactics.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 18):
Incidentally, how does that work? Are there QRA fighters with range to intercept anywhere the Russians can reach? I guess the south border doesn't really require alert fighter protection, at least not since 1812.

Canada primarily bases its fighters at Cold Lake, Alberta, and Bagotville, in Quebec. There are also rotations to Comox in British Columbia, Goose Bay and Gandar in Newfoundland, and Greenwood in Nova Scotia. Also, Yellowknife is also on that list of rotation and forward deployed locations.
 
trex8
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:46 am

Quoting spudh (Reply 19):
There are lots of variables as you say, with ROE's and tactics being particularly big ones for excercise.

Its not just the machine you are flying , its the training and the tactics. Since 1997 Taiwanese Block 20 F16As based at Luke AFB have been whipping active and reserve USAF later block 30/40/50 C/Ds and Navy/marine F18s regularly. The 21st FS has won more awards at Luke than all the other squadrons combined since it was reconstituted to train the Taiwanese. And till the mid of the last decade they only had AIM7 sparrows against the aim120 amraams the regular US forces had, they still don;'t have AIM9X /JHMCS and they still beat the regular US units. Several years ago in the COs office of the 2st FS there was a banner - When 1000 enemy aircraft of the People's Liberation Army are 10 minutes flying time away, the defense of the Taiwan Straits will rest on superior tactics and training. There's supposed to be a new banner up but I can't say I've personally seen it. "Raptors down".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:42 am

Quoting spudh (Reply 19):
The net effect was the then earth shatterring 1:1 exchange ratio between the much vaunted high end fighters against the cheap and cheerful F5 in multi fghter engagements.

Up until that change in tactics the F14's (and presumably the F15 too) were tatooing the F5's for fun. But history records the 1:1 ratio as the outcome of AIMVAL/ACEVAL and the need for a lightweight fighter was confirmed.

The others would, as a consequence, have also had a change in tactics.....but it does make one wonder what could have been, had the USAF acquired F-20 Tigersharks.....

http://www.fas.org/man//dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_tigershark.jpg.
http://www.fas.org/man//dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_tigershark.jpg
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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autothrust
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:20 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
The machine is just one part of the equation, so you can never write:

Of course it is!!! Give a idiot the controls over a F-22 and a experienced pilot with a P-51 would shoot it down.

I'm talking from the purely technical point of view .  

Even more once the Typhoon gets the Meteor with two way datalink and its AESA Captor Radar. The hardware of the Typhoon is just more advanced then that found on the F-16/F-18/F-15,Gripen etc.. that is fact.

It can climb faster, much higher, more manouvrable, more sensorfusion(totally passive Infrared-Search-and-Track-System), less workload, lower wingload, supercruise, it can do 9g manouvers while being supersonic, roll rates over 260°/sec etc...
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
spudh
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):
The others would, as a consequence, have also had a change in tactics.....but it does make one wonder what could have been, had the USAF acquired F-20 Tigersharks.....


I assume that the RIOs adopted tactics to switch betwen radar modes, or at least had the wingman searching using a different mode instead of searching a different quadrant. I don't know, its only from reading autobiographies that you pick up bits of inside information, official reports from excerises are normally very bare.

I still can't understand how the F-20 never picked up an order. It seemed like a real winner A to A.

I know the USAF probably wanted it killed so as not to oppose the F-16 in international sales (thereby driving down unit costs) but you would have thought that the economics would still have weighed heavily enough in its favour. I believe it was short ranged, any idea how true that was? Or was it lacking in growth potential maybe?

I suppose when you look at the Eurofighter or any of the teen fighters it shows just how important growth potential is. The Gripen seems to be running out of steam that way, at least until the NG comes along. How does the Rafale measure up to the Eurofighter in this regard?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:44 am

Quoting spudh (Reply 24):

I know the USAF probably wanted it killed so as not to oppose the F-16 in international sales (thereby driving down unit costs) but you would have thought that the economics would still have weighed heavily enough in its favour. I believe it was short ranged, any idea how true that was? Or was it lacking in growth potential maybe?

Politics aside, the Tigershark had a very defined target market - it was primarily meant to be an affordable point defense interceptor. This gives a range of 550 nm for interdiction missions.....

http://www.fas.org/man//dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_interdiction.gif
http://www.fas.org/man//dod-101/sys/ac/f-20_interdiction.gif

Other than minor upgrades to its radar and avionics (not sure if today's scaleable AESA radar could fit or if the F-20 had the juice for those) it was generally accepted that it had gone about as far as it would go. Even then, it was comparatively more advanced than many of the contemporaries it likely would have been pitted against. So as not to stray farther from the subject, the following provide a neat summary of the F-20's capabilities, including mission profiles.....

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/fighter/f20.html

I leave it to the others to debate the merits of the Rafale vs the Eurofighter.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
spudh
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:36 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):
So as not to stray farther from the subject, the following provide a neat summary of the F-20's capabilities, including mission profiles.....

Thanks Devilfish, there are really great links off that page  

No more off topic excursions by me now either  
 
mffoda
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:51 pm

I had an interesting thought regarding the Typhoon....

Since the RAF is considering dumping so many Typhoons before the end of their service life... I was thinking that there might be another option? Maybe there could be some sort of arrangement made between the USAF/Navy and the RAF (and or other interested European AF's that use the Typhoon) where the US Sponsors a squadron or two of Typhoons and integrates them into the Aggressor squadrons here in the US?

The US could provide basing, fuel, spares and maintenance in return for a very capable A2A adversary that would not only provide the US, but our close allies with enhanced A2A training.

The benefits for the RAF could include:

1- Keeping a extra Typhoon Squadron or two at mostly US expense (where RAF maintains ownership).
2- Superior training opportunities in unrestricted air space.
3- Ability to keep more and better trained RAF pilots in active service.

There are many other opportunities... But I'd like to know what others think of this idea???

Cheers...
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
trex8
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:58 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 24):
I still can't understand how the F-20 never picked up an order. It seemed like a real winner A to A.

It was pitched for those customers who were being offered the "downgraded" F16/J79 engine combo, when Carter decided to back track on trying to push downgraded F16s to foreign customers who "didn't deserve " a "real" F16 and just offer the real mccoy who would want it? Except Taiwan who wanted the production line, didn't get it for political reasons, but got all the avionics which they put in their IDF
 
GDB
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:06 pm

mffoda, practical and sensible sounding idea, alas that tends to exclude them from the powers that be.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:10 pm

As the BBC have just reported that the LIbya no fly zone may be getting the green light in the next few hours, we may find out if the Typhoon does do the job it was designed for.
 
GST
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 27):

Good lord, we couldn't possibly have a workable scheme like that!
 
Ant72LBA
Posts: 374
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 30):
As the BBC have just reported that the LIbya no fly zone may be getting the green light in the next few hours, we may find out if the Typhoon does do the job it was designed for.

The resolution has just been passed by the UN.
 
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cpd
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 27):
I had an interesting thought regarding the Typhoon....

Unbelievable!      

Give this man a gold medal for sensible thinking!
 
wvsuperhornet
Posts: 517
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):
The others would, as a consequence, have also had a change in tactics.....but it does make one wonder what could have been, had the USAF acquired F-20 Tigersharks.....

Well Chuck Yeager did say it was the best fighter jet that was never developed!
 
Devilfish
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 31):

Good lord, we couldn't possibly have a workable scheme like that!

Especially if it would mean sidelining the F-16s, reacquired F-5s and T-38s of the local aggressor squadrons. Of course, if the latter were transported across the pond for a reciprocal DACT with cooperating air forces, the Typhoon would indeed be a great asset to have. Lots of Vipers needing special attention.

The situation in North Africa does present an opportunity.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
osteogenesis
Posts: 494
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 27):
But I'd like to know what others think of this idea??

The US would probably not like the idea of constantly losing air to air battles against a superior foe not US build. Maybe the US air force would start considering buying some Typhoons. Oh wait, sorry I forgot. European planes are all bad and should never be part of the US air force.  
 
mffoda
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:50 am

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 36):
Oh wait, sorry I forgot. European planes are all bad and should never be part of the US air force.



Yeah... you're right??  

Active US European A/C:

AV-8 Harrier
UH-72A Lakota
CN-235
HH-65
CASA-212
C-27A
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
Spacepope
Posts: 3140
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:29 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 37):
Yeah... you're right??  

Active US European A/C:

AV-8 Harrier
UH-72A Lakota
CN-235
HH-65
CASA-212
C-27A

C-27A is long retired.

Add: C-27J, T-45, T-6, HH-65
The last of the famous international playboys
 
mffoda
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:27 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 38):
C-27A is long retired.

Add: C-27J, T-45, T-6, HH-65




Thanks, Spacepope... I ment C-27J...

& had HH-65 listed already  
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
highlander0
Posts: 163
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:36 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 38):

Quoting mffoda (Reply 37):
Yeah... you're right??

Active US European A/C:

AV-8 Harrier
UH-72A Lakota
CN-235
HH-65
CASA-212
C-27A


C-27A is long retired.

Add: C-27J, T-45, T-6, HH-65

Did you get the Shorts Skyvan in there? I think it's the Sherpa in US Army service. Don't forget the Antonovs the USAF special air wings use.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:57 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 39):
I ment C-27J...

Has there been any later delivery (Army or AF) other than these three?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Leandro Rocha - AzoresAirPhotos


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe Osciak
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Photo © Bruce Leibowitz



Another one.....

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bill Shull



.....and yet another.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alastair T. Gardiner - WorldAirImages



And while Bombardier made these two.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Felix Bahamonde - PR Planespotters
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rick Ingham


.....De Havilland has its origins from across the pond.  
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Spacepope
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:42 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 39):

Thanks, Spacepope... I ment C-27J...

& had HH-65 listed already  

Doh! Indeed you did. Well, I'll just have to add Special ops flying MI-8/17 and MI-24. Down in Florida they're flying PC-12s too. They were very active moving personnel right after the earthquake in Haiti.

We'll just ignore the MiG-15/17/21/23/29 in aggressor service. The F-21 Kfir was originally a Dassault product, so I guess it kinda counts too.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
wingscrubber
Posts: 806
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:46 pm

@ Autothrust : Thanks for addressing each of the bogus claims individually. I didn't think they were entirely fair either...

There is some truth to the claim about lack of ground attack capability, but until Tornado GR4s are retired that's not a huge problem and the Libyan offensive is testament to that, nonetheless the Rafale embarasses the Typhoon in this respect.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 11):
Do you mean the capability as CAS plane or generally spoken? The F-16,F-18,F-15, Gripen, Mirage etc.. cannot beat the Typhoon in the air/air combat.

I was talking 'generally speaking', in terms of aircraft that the RAF could or would have purchased from the US instead of developing indigenously. Having previously purchased phantoms, it's plausable that they could have asked for more US equipment.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 37):
Active US European A/C:

In the case of AV-8, T-45, UH-72 & T-6, they're all license built on US soil of course.
Resident TechOps Troll
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:29 pm

Quoting Wingscrubber (Reply 43):
here is some truth to the claim about lack of ground attack capability, but until Tornado GR4s are retired that's not a huge problem and the Libyan offensive is testament to that, nonetheless the Rafale embarrasses the Typhoon in this respect.

True, however the (superb) French aircraft has two factors which helped.
No delays caused by several partner nations having to work everything out.
No exports (so far) to put a bit of a spanner in the works of a customer's procurement planning (Saudi and RAF).

When the NFZ, even in it's original form, was first mooted, the RAF and the procurement/industry players should have been told to as fast as possible in this order, 1) integrate ALARM on to Typhoon - including Tranche 1's and 2) integrate Brimstone on to Typhoon too.
Alarm would be quicker and easier most likely.
To follow, insist on those two and Storm Shadow + RAPTOR pod integration 'out of the box' on to RAF Tranche 2 aircraft as soon as practicable. Tranche 3 should have this anyway.

Some of us can remember when the agencies involved could haul Vulcan's almost from the scrap yard and into the longest bomber missions then flown, create an AEW Sea King in two months from scratch and a bunch of others.
Who could take Tornado and Jaguar aircraft in European peacetime standard and add new comms, IFF, expanded weapon options, uprated engines, radar absorbent strips on to control surface leading edges plus desert paint job in a matter of weeks too, in 1990.

But hey, they are no doubt these days 'leaner', 'smarter' 'customer focused' and can 'deliver solutions'.
(I could write this crap all night - you get the picture I'm sure).
 
tommy1808
Posts: 3941
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:26 pm

I guess this is the closest to a Eurofighter thread.

Airbus did some tweaking and got +45% AoA and +100% Roll rate out of it.

http://airbusdefenceandspace.com/new...er-aerodynamic-upgrades-completed/

best regards
Thomas
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1699
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting Wingscrubber (Thread starter):
I chanced upon this scathing article by the Register(which I don't normally read) on the Typhoon program, ..............


Is there any credence to this article, or is it all right-wing bullsh*t?

I think I spotted your first mistake, believing the register
 
Ozair
Posts: 1351
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 45):
Airbus did some tweaking and got +45% AoA and +100% Roll rate out of it.

Someone posting on another forum has put some context to this, namely that the increases should have an "up to". The increase to the AoA is approximately 25% for operational use with a possible override that can take it to 45% while the max roll rate hasn't increased at all but the roll rate during certain regions of the flight envelope.

It is an impressive increase for the airframe, especially considering how little the overall changes actually are. It also demonstrates how much of an effect small airframe changes can have and how little can be eyeballed from these changes.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 2466
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:51 am

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 46):

I think I spotted your first mistake, believing the register

The RAF are expected to retire 53 Tranche 1 Eurofighters in a few years. The early Tranche 1 Eurofighters are technically obsolete, with many systems onboard no longer made or supported, and it's prohibitively expensive to upgrade. There's a very good likelihood that the RAF will end up with more F-35's than Typhoons in the coming years.
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
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RE: Eurofighter Typhoon : 'Even Worse Than We Thought'

Sat Jul 25, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 48):
The RAF are expected to retire 53 Tranche 1 Eurofighters in a few years. The early Tranche 1 Eurofighters are technically obsolete, with many systems onboard no longer made or supported, and it's prohibitively expensive to upgrade. There's a very good likelihood that the RAF will end up with more F-35's than Typhoons in the coming years.


They could, as Janes reported the other day, be kept on with a rolling program of updates, not with all the bells and whistles for multi role tasking but enough to keep them viable for a couple of AD orientated units until around 2030.
It's a financial not a technical hurdle.
I seriously doubt that F-35's will ever outnumber even just the Tranche 2 and 3 fleets however, they are only probably going to buy enough, eventually, for one carrier air group plus a smaller land based deployable force.

Unless tension with Putin's Russia escalates seriously, that could reprieve the Tranche 1's though there would be many saying 'if you are going to spend a bit extra on the UK's fast jet fleet spend it on more Typhoon Tranche 3 and/or F-35's'.

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