PlayLoud
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U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:32 am

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa...vil.war/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
Quoting United Nations CNN:

U.N. Security Council approves no-fly zone in Libya

United Nations (CNN) -- Joyous Libyan rebels in Benghazi erupted with fireworks and gunfire after the U.N. Security Council voted Thursday evening to impose a no-fly zone and "all necessary measures" to protect civilians.

The opposition, with devoted but largely untrained and underequipped units, has suffered military setbacks this week. It has said such international action was necessary for it to have any chance of thwarting Moammar Gadhafi's imminent assault on the rebel stronghold.

"We're hoping and praying that the United Nations will come up with a very firm and very fast resolution and they will enforce it immediately," said Ahmed El-Gallal, a senior opposition coordinator, before the vote.

"We should not arrive too late," French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said at the U.N.

The resolution was approved with 10 votes, including those of the United States and the United Kingdom.

There were no opposing votes on the 15-member council, but China, Russia, Germany, India and Brazil abstained. Germany said it was concerned about a protracted military conflict.

U.N. member states can "take all necessary measures ... to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force," according to the resolution.

I think this virtually assures we are going in. What forces do we have in place carry out such an action?





[Edited 2011-03-17 17:50:17]
 
mham001
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:52 am

I think its about time the French put up or shut up.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:31 am

For the US, I think it would be carrier based. But England and France are chomping at the bit to go in and they could fly from their home bases for the initial strikes. At least they are close by. A full no fly zone would be tough and costly. That would require 24/7 patrols on station.

Though a few well aimed cruise missiles might be smart.

[Edited 2011-03-17 19:34:35]
 
ThePointblank
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:14 am

Canada is expected to chop 6 CF-18's for the no-fly zone:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...1/03/17/libya-red-cross031711.html
 
prebennorholm
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:30 am

This is three weeks late. It's nonsense.

Quote from CNN:
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Thursday that establishing a zone would take "upwards of a week."

U.S. military officials have said that a no-fly zone would not halt the heavy artillery the regime is using on the ground.

end of quote

Gaddafi must be laughing right now.

In two weeks time the Libyan AA capability may have been mostly knocked down - at the cost of a dozen fighter planes and a double digit bailed out fighter pilots held hostage by Gaddafi.

And in a few years time "we" manage to buy the hostages to freedom by supplying Gaddafi a few squadrons of new, modern fighter planes and AA systems. And in the meantime Gaddafi feels free to re-initiate his terror acts, while French and Italian politicians travel in and out of Tripoli to kiss his feet.

Maybe some time in 22nd century the world will finally learn that African civil wars are not "controlled" by electronic superiority in the sky.
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Newark727
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:35 am

I suppose we don't yet know what they mean by "all necessary measures?"
 
PlayLoud
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:39 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 5):
I suppose we don't yet know what they mean by "all necessary measures?"

I assume that means taking out the artillery as well.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:20 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 5):



I suppose we don't yet know what they mean by "all necessary measures?"

The news report I heard said that they expected attacks on the army as just preventing aircraft movement is useless by this time.

and really what gives us the right to do this? Can we bomb the crap out of France next week(month/year) when some protesters burn cars and get attacked by the police? The use of force shoudn't merely be a popularity contest. This isnt Jr High, this is real life.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:45 am

My guess is the US Superhornet will carry the blunt of the work for the US and maybe some stealth bombers or B-1's at first to take out the radar stations.
 
mham001
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:00 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 4):
This is three weeks late. It's nonsense.

Yes, it is.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 7):
and really what gives us the right to do this? Can we bomb the crap out of France next week(month/year) when some protesters burn cars and get attacked by the police? The use of force shoudn't merely be a popularity contest.

The irony of the French wanting in there so badly, and it was they who would not give overflight rights when Reagan wanted to send Khadaffi a message 20 some years ago for killing US citizens.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:32 am

Quoting PlayLoud (Thread starter):
"all necessary measures"
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 5):
"all necessary measures?"

the resolution specifies "all necessary measures SHORT OF OCCUPATION" i.e no ground forces. It is germane here to remember that Saddam Hussein still managed to crush both the Shia south and Kurdish north in 1991-92 in-spite of the No fly zone - albeit with heavy losses.

Also IMO this ruling out a ground threat is foolish. Milosevic and the Serbian army basically dug in and did nothing and yielded nothing till infrastructure targets in Serbia proper were bombed.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 7):
and really what gives us the right to do this?

The last two decades worth of legal and UN precedents (IMO foolish and dangerous) give us the right to do this. Basically a clique in Europe or NA decide who stays and who goes and bomb. That's how its been throughout history.

More importantly we don't know WHO the opposition are. Usually in these countries its the Muslim brotherhood ... so what replaces qaddafi may be worse than qaddafi.

Quoting PlayLoud (Reply 6):
I assume that means taking out the artillery as well.

i am curious to know how this will be done. In normal conflict you have a JSTARS or visual sighting to confirm if a tank is a friendly M1A2 or an enemy t-72 or if a gun is a friendly M777 or and unfriendly D30. In Libya both govt and oppn are using the same equipment.............. so me reckons CAS against govt targets will also result in massive oppn losses. Moreover if the govt forces successfully pull off an outflanking manoeuvre and behind oppn forces - you set the stage for total indiscriminate slaughter.

Lastly the resolution specifies "PROTECT CIVILIANS" a gun battle in the desert or a tank battle will not be eligible for western air support... technically therefore - re-supply convoys cannot be bombed since their payload may be to aid civilians ( I wouldn't put it past qaddafi to hide shells and bombs in sacks of wheat or rice)

Lastly this resolution seems very badly thought out because it basically encourages the opposition - when faced with defeat to retreat into civilian areas and invite qaddafi's wrath on those areas - much like hamas did in Gaza. This resolution implicitly encourages these oppn guys to use civilians as human shields.

Shoddy - ill thought out - foolish resolution ............... only a brain dead peacock like sarkozy could have come with this ... especially after his, alliot-marie's and boillot's bungling - after all he only cares about the press - who in turn confuse "activity with achievement"




Update;
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video....libya.nofly.resolution.cnn?hpt=T1

CNN's Nic Robertson says Gadhafi's deputy foreign minister "strangely" welcomed U.N. approval of a no-fly zone in Libya.

WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU????????????????????

[Edited 2011-03-17 22:38:27]
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GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:38 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
The irony of the French wanting in there so badly, and it was they who would not give overflight rights when Reagan wanted to send Khadaffi a message 20 some years ago for killing US citizens.

France had been fighting Libya in Chad on and off during that decade, Gaddafi clearly was messing about in that former French colony for the uranium mined there.
By 1987, after a substantial reverse, he bugged out.
Maybe they felt that was a better course of action than lashing out and as we found, killing Gaddafi's 2 year old daughter.
And did that raid halt his support for terrorism? PA103?
Him further ramping up support for the IRA since British bases were used for the F-111 raid.

http://www.suite101.com/content/france--libya-in-chad-198087-a3728

Reports here indicate that UK and French forces will - with some Arab support? - be the main provider of the aircraft.

[Edited 2011-03-17 22:41:06]

As for the Libyan diplomat being 'pleased', they are hardly known for making rational statements are they? All that stuff about the rebels being variously on LSD and supported by Bin Laden!


[Edited 2011-03-17 22:43:35]
 
tommytoyz
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:04 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
The irony of the French wanting in there so badly, and it was they who would not give overflight rights when Reagan wanted to send Khadaffi a message 20 some years ago for killing US citizens.

France, Spain and Italy denied the retribution overflight rights. In the end, they didn't get him. Instead, a bunch of people who had nothing to do with killing Americans died in his place. Though it did seem to quiet him down afterward and made him pause. I think it made him see a ray of sanity, that he was not invincible - that even his female bodyguards couldn't stop the F-111s for some odd reason. In the end, that raid probably saved lives due to that effect on him.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 4):
This is three weeks late. It's nonsense.

Quote from CNN:
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz told a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Thursday that establishing a zone would take "upwards of a week."

It may take the US forces weeks, but not the Europeans.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10):
WHAT DOES THIS TELL YOU????????????????????

It tells any sane person that Gaddafi is insane. Like his threats, that if anybody goes crazy on him, he'll go crazy on them with terrorist acts for decades to come - he's insane and knows no boundaries. He'll kill anyone in his way.
 
sebolino
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:51 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 4):
And in the meantime Gaddafi feels free to re-initiate his terror acts, while French and Italian politicians travel in and out of Tripoli to kiss his feet.

French politicians are not all like Sarkozy, fortunately.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:54 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
The irony of the French wanting in there so badly, and it was they who would not give overflight rights when Reagan wanted to send Khadaffi a message 20 some years ago for killing US citizens.

I don't see any irony.

Don't you see any difference between an operation of revenge which will kill civilians and an operation of protection which will try to save civilians ?
 
sebolino
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:04 am

Actually, I'm glad Kadhafi didn't buy any rafales.

On the other hand, if the rafale is so good, it's the right time to show it. Unfortunately, I think - like other people here - that it's much too late. Now the Lybian soldiers are close to the cities and it will be very hard to protect civilians.
 
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par13del
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:37 am

Not sure how much traction this is going to get and whether it is good for the world or not.

1. The Europeans are chomping at the bit politically to bomb a country, go figure, I want to see it happen.
2. Who is going to pay for the operation. The Europeans are cutting budgets left and right, there are strikes and discord, they are encouraging the Americans to get their economic house in order also, since China does not agree don't expect them to use western funds to fund any Chinese participation, Japan is devasted and need aid, so who is going to pay, the Oil rich neighbours?
3. If the oil producing countries foot the bill who is going to re-imburse them, the rest of the world when they push the price of oil to $200.00+ a barrel, maintain it there for a year or two.

The only folks who will be happy about such an outcome are the green folks who will say the planet has been saved, but since local countries can have devasted economies with the resultant job losses and social unrest.

Guess we are entering the new era of globalization.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:55 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 4):
In two weeks time the Libyan AA capability may have been mostly knocked down - at the cost of a dozen fighter planes and a double digit bailed out fighter pilots held hostage by Gaddafi.

Dont be daft - it will be a cakewalk. That's why we have stealth and cruise missiles. Knock down the C&C, the comms and then the radars and its all over. Stay safe from the AAA by sitting at 20,000 feet and JDAM-ing or Stormshadow-ing anything tank or tube shaped that moves and its over very quickly. Whatever fighters the Libyans have will be taken out on the ground by cruise missiles or completely overrun by the Rafales, Typhoons or Eagles etc that the coalition has out looking for them.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 15):
Actually, I'm glad Kadhafi didn't buy any rafales.

Me too but without AWACs and jamming support they wouldnt get close enough to the Super Hornets to show them up in a dogfight. They wouldnt send enough of them - and even if they did, the USN would have more Bugs than they have Rafales.

Anyway - Gaddafi's advisors are busy telling him these things and he'll back down.
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bikerthai
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:50 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 4):
This is three weeks late. It's nonsense.

Actually, I was surprised that the UN acted this fast!!

The no fly zone was not meant to stop Qaddafi. It was meant to keep Egypt from being engulf by refugees if Benghazi falls.

I always thought that the best way the rebel can fight Qaddafi's army is to use hit-and-run tactic to cut his supply line from Tripoli to Benghazi. Using guerrilla tactic in the desert is somewhat problematic if you have airplanes and helicopters stalking you all the time. At least now the rebel can (if they have the capability) try to cut the supply of fuel to the tanks and the shells to the artillery pieces if they can meet the heavy armor head on.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10):
It is germane here to remember that Saddam Hussein still managed to crush both the Shia south and Kurdish north in 1991-92 in-spite of the No fly zone - albeit with heavy losses.

The Kurds were not completely crushed and the Shia did not get defections from the regular army. But your point is taken.

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kingairta
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:01 pm

The US has an airfield in pefrect position to enforce a No-Fly Zone over Libya. It's NAS Sigonella on Sicily. No need to send a carrier.
 
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par13del
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:10 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
That's why we have stealth and cruise missiles.

Who exactly has stealth and cruise missiles, the European's have taken the lead on this one, you expecting them to use their stealth a/c and their cruise missiles? If the Europeans do not use stealth and cruise missile the dynamics of the cake walk changes no?

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
Stay safe from the AAA by sitting at 20,000 feet and JDAM-ing or Stormshadow-ing anything tank or tube shaped that moves and its over very quickly

If European forces take the lead how many JDAMS and Stormshadow's are presently deployed, enough to do tank plinking, are their combat a/c already military certified to deliver those weapons? One of the reasons why Hellfire and dumb bombs are used for such ventures are becasue they are "plentiful" in inventory and not as expensive.
 
mham001
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:01 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 14):
Don't you see any difference between an operation of revenge which will kill civilians and an operation of protection which will try to save civilians ?

How many innocent lives might have been saved if Reagan had been successful? Instead, those birds flew an extra 1,300 miles with multiple refuelings and Khadaffi escaped by minutes.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:31 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 20):

If European forces take the lead how many JDAMS and Stormshadow's are presently deployed, enough to do tank plinking, are their combat a/c already military certified to deliver those weapons? One of the reasons why Hellfire and dumb bombs are used for such ventures are becasue they are "plentiful" in inventory and not as expensive.

The Italian Air force purchased a bunch of Small Diameter Bomb I. These would be perfect for "tank plinking". Are they in service yet?

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11Bravo
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:46 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 22):
These would be perfect for "tank plinking".

Since when is "tank plinking" part of a No-fly Zone enforcement? It sounds like several of you have decided that the western air forces are now going to engage in a full-on air campaign against the Libyan military. My question is, from my American perspective; How does the current situation in Libya constitute a direct threat to the national security interests of the United States?
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Spacepope
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:00 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 23):
Since when is "tank plinking" part of a No-fly Zone enforcement? It sounds like several of you have decided that the western air forces are now going to engage in a full-on air campaign against the Libyan military.

The UN resolution last night authorized any force needed to protect civilians (short of occupation), not just a no-fly zone. If those tanks are being used to assault a city, then that are legitimate targets. Same goes for artillery, naval forces, etc.
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Devilfish
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:14 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 15):
Actually, I'm glad Kadhafi didn't buy any rafales.

Perhaps that's why Sarko is so intent to get into the thick of it?
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GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:20 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
1. The Europeans are chomping at the bit politically to bomb a country, go figure, I want to see it happen.
2. Who is going to pay for the operation. The Europeans are cutting budgets left and right, there are strikes and discord, they are encouraging the Americans to get their economic house in order also, since China does not agree don't expect them to use western funds to fund any Chinese participation, Japan is devasted and need aid, so who is going to pay, the Oil rich neighbours?
3. If the oil producing countries foot the bill who is going to re-imburse them, the rest of the world when they push the price of oil to $200.00+ a barrel, maintain it there for a year or two.

The only folks who will be happy about such an outcome are the green folks who will say the planet has been saved, but since local countries can have devasted economies with the resultant job losses and social unrest.

Guess we are entering the new era of globalization.

The deploying RAF aircraft seem to answer that.
Might also be worth reflecting that plenty of European NATO aircraft - and men - having been operating in Afghanistan for years.

Quoting par13del (Reply 20):
Stormshadow's are presently deployed, enough to do tank plinking, are their combat a/c already military certified to deliver those weapons?

RAF have operated Storm Shadow from Tornado since 2003, they were used operationally in Iraq before official final clearance for service.
In fact, there is a history of that, from Sea Skua anti ship missiles from Lynx helicopters in 1982, to ALARM and TIALD designators from Tornado's in 1991 - the latter were just the two existing prototypes at the time.

France has the similar to Storm Shadow Apache and the smaller anti armour ASSM which I believe has been used in Afghanistan.

So we are seeing actual deployment and preparations - the UK and France do have proven assets to use.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 23):
My question is, from my American perspective; How does the current situation in Libya constitute a direct threat to the national security interests of the United States?

I don't think the UN resolution has the security interest of the US in mind. On the face of it, the concern is the massive refugee crisis that will be imposed upon Egypt (a US ally under a fledgling "democratic" process) if eastern Libya would fall to the Libyan Army.

Would you agree that you don't want Egypt to be burden with such a crisis while they are working out their own political revolution? Imagine the chaos!!!!!

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11Bravo
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 24):
The UN resolution last night authorized any force needed to protect civilians (short of occupation), not just a no-fly zone. If those tanks are being used to assault a city, then that are legitimate targets. Same goes for artillery, naval forces, etc.

Thank you, I'm well aware of what the UN resolution says. What if those tanks or other forces are being used to conduct operations against the insurgents? Are they considered civilians that must be protected by military force? If that is the case, I think we have embarked upon a trip down a slippery slope. Are allied aircraft to be the De facto Rebel Air Force?

I do not support American involvement in this operation. We need to stay out of it. If I were French or Italian, I might see the situation differently, but I'm not.

France, Italy, Spain,... step up to the plate, this is your problem, deal with it.
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GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:37 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 28):
Thank you, I'm well aware of what the UN resolution says. What if those tanks or other forces are being used to conduct operations against the insurgents?

It seems the UN resolution does not consider the anti Gaddafi forces 'insurgents'.
If anything, it considers Gaddafi's regime an insurgent one - certainly for his first 30 years in power, supporting, arming a large number of terrorists groups from all over the world, he himself seemed to see himself like that.

Let's be clear, his 'coming in from the Cold' in late 2003, likely encouraged by some of his sons, was a pragmatic reaction to his 'State Of The Masses' being ground down by decades of sanctions and almost total isolation.
Like the Communist era Albania of North Africa, but with oil - though sanctions were seriously blunting exploiting that resource too.
None of his international objectives achieved, Israel was still there, the IRA were not running Ireland, his attempts to control Chad, his vision of himself as 'Leader Of The Arab World' rejected with scorn, his attempts to be a self nominated leader of the continent of Africa also contemptuously rebuffed.

Some seasoned observers of his regime reckon the rebellion, his world defying severe action against it (ironic for someone with his track record of supporting rebellions elsewhere), has put him in a sense back into a comfort zone almost.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:52 pm

In the meantime, Air Libya lost 2 Yak-40s yesterday to an air raid.

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-65860-4.html
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Bureaucromancer
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:57 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 7):
and really what gives us the right to do this? Can we bomb the crap out of France next week(month/year) when some protesters burn cars and get attacked by the police? The use of force shoudn't merely be a popularity contest. This isnt Jr High, this is real life.

And yet all the countries involved have signed treaties saying that this is the only legitimate process for use of force. You may well have problems with the UN system (who doesn't) but it is what we have. If UN authorization doesn't give us the right to do it, what would you suggest does?
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:02 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 14):
Don't you see any difference between an operation of revenge which will kill civilians and an operation of protection which will try to save civilians ?

What civllians? Which civillians? This is the problem with situations like this. We are protecting one side regardless of the real situation. The rebels have guns, including things like towed AA. I don't know what all they have but they are NOT civilians by any definition I know of. Are we going to protect the civillians in harms way when the rebels attack in the future? Seems like currently most real civillians are fleeing the area and the libyan forces are letting them go.

Quoting Bureaucromancer (Reply 31):
And yet all the countries involved have signed treaties saying that this is the only legitimate process for use of force. You may well have problems with the UN system (who doesn't) but it is what we have. If UN authorization doesn't give us the right to do it, what would you suggest does?

I agree that we need some way to decide if someone is playing nice and not just killing people for fun, but in this case It escapes me why it was authorised. It was authorised long after we could preserve a stalemate with just a no-fly zone and a warning not to attack. Instead the resolution comes late enough that the only way to prevent the rebels destruction is to destroy the libyan army. This is a MUCH more serious action than telling libya that they can't fly any planes or helicopters. You have just picked a side without knowing anything about one side. You have decided that tens of thousands of men should die for following the orders of thier commanders given by the legitimite ruler.

Oh and call me cynical but I think this has as much (more) to do with who gets to sell the next ruler of libya planes, tanks, artillery, etc instead of protecting civilians. I get this impression from waiting just long enough to speak up that the only way to keep the rebels from being over run is the destruction of the existing army.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:26 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 28):

I do not support American involvement in this operation. We need to stay out of it. If I were French or Italian, I might see the situation differently, but I'm not.

I'm sure there are many others who echo your sentiment, especially the pilots of the UK and France who will be in the US firing line if you join in, trigger happy allies tend to make people jumpy.      

If the US had not been so adamantly against a no fly zone when David Cameron suggested it 2 weeks ago, this might have all been over by now
 
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par13del
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 26):
Might also be worth reflecting that plenty of European NATO aircraft - and men - having been operating in Afghanistan for years.

Yes and other than the Brits, their rules of engagement have been "questioned", as one member of this site serving in the region has described. To be clear, I am not saying that Europeans are not serving and doing the jobs given to them, what I am saying that in recent history - I go back to Suez - Europeans have not taken the lead on any major combat operations, for a couple years they had light forces in the former Yugoslavia before the massacres got so bad that uncle Bill finally had to get involved.

Quoting GDB (Reply 26):
to ALARM and TIALD designators from Tornado's in 1991 - the latter were just the two existing prototypes at the time.

This I recall, hence my questions on whether these new weapons were already certified, thanks for the info. I would assume that for the RAF the Tornado's would do any SEAD and other ground missions with Typhoons providing cover if required, unless Libya wants to prove something, the greatest danger will be ground fire if ground targets are to be hit.
Tornados are good on the deck, unfortunately as the Gulf Wars showed, the desert does not offer much protection if the night is not involved.

Hopes and prayers are with all preparing for this mission, the rest of the world hopes for a swift resolution, the markets are killing us.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 33):
If the US had not been so adamantly against a no fly zone when David Cameron suggested it 2 weeks ago, this might have all been over by now

Possibly, however it would have been just a NFZ, IF the resolution was even passed.
A pure NFZ would not likely have made enough difference on the ground, really it's probably the case that only the prospect of Qaddafi going mental in Benghazi and the rebellion collapsing concentrated minds sufficiently.
That was not the situation two weeks ago, most though the mad Colonel was toast.
Also that time was probably needed to cajole/pressure Russia and China to just abstain and not veto the whole thing.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 17):
Dont be daft - it will be a cakewalk. That's why we have stealth and cruise missiles. Knock down the C&C, the comms and then the radars and its all over. Stay safe from the AAA by sitting at 20,000 feet and JDAM-ing or Stormshadow-ing anything tank or tube shaped that moves and its over very quickly. Whatever fighters the Libyans have will be taken out on the ground by cruise missiles or completely overrun by the Rafales, Typhoons or Eagles etc that the coalition has out looking for them.

I'm afraid that you have watched too many Star War movies...
Or listened to too many hype weapons salesmen...
Or maybe even been trained in the RAF to use those "wonderful" billion $$$ toys which the boys will rely upon.

I remember very well first time a Royal Danish Air Force F-16 returned from former Yugoslavia. A whole army or journalists and TV reporters were on site to welcome the pilot and pad a "hero" on the shoulder. When stepping down from the fighter and being asked a hundred questions at 140 decibel, then he just said: "War is shit, and I am going to pee". He left the scene and was never seen again.

This whole thing seems to me to have too many parallels to the first Gulf War 1991 and the NFZ 1991-2003. It would have been the same mess today if someone hadn't said in 2003 that enough is enough and put an end to it. And still today takes a heavy blame for that from "the rest of the world".

The 1991 Gulf War was at least necessary to liberate Kuwait. But this time there isn't even an intention to liberate anybody. We only realize that thousands (or even millions) of people are eager to kill each other, to which we can do nothing. But doing "something" seems to make an expectation of some "feel good" on a later date.

All way from the 1960 Biafra War up to present day it has always gone from bad to worse when outsiders messed with African civil wars. I don't expect this one to be any different.

Anyway, tonight on TV I watched trumpet fanfares for 120 RDAF support personnel and pilots leaving Skrydstrup Air Base in southern Denmark with four F-16 fighters for Sicily in four and a half hours from now.

But what can I do? I can hope that they won't screw up too much, and I can refuse to pay up my tax bill. The latter surely won't help much, neither will my hope for "no screw up".
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GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:31 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 34):
I go back to Suez - Europeans have not taken the lead on any major combat operations, for a couple years they had light forces in the former Yugoslavia before the massacres got so bad that uncle Bill finally had to get involved.

Suez? Uncle Sam pulled the plug there! (Rightly, it was a crazy idea).
Yugoslavia, the UN mandate for action was too limiting.
The last Western forces to engage Libya on the ground were France in Chad.

The UK and France have been involved in plenty of operations, that did not involve the US.
 
highlander0
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:42 pm

There seems to be a bit of isolationism apparent in this thread.

You're right- unless US oil companies get deals for Libyan Oil/Gas, then this has little to do besides stopping the 'Leader of the Revolution'/'Father of Barrak Hussein Obama' (as he said in his letters today) killing 000s of people.


It's quite clear that the US/EU/Rest of the World want Ghadaffi/Qadaffi/oneoftheother23waysofspellinghisname out of power under this UN charter. The civilians are the rebels and yes, we will be 'the de facto' airforce of the rebels, is anyone actually surprised?!

The BBC has said the RAF will probably send 9 Sqn and 31 Sqn of Tornados, 9 Sqn being AGM specialists and 31 Sqn Storm Shadow users. Indeed I had thought that Tornados using ALARMs, USN F/A-18s using HARMs and E-6Bs as EW support would be the first wave; possibly Typhoons as supercruising bomb trucks for precision strikes as the second wave with European F-16s and Canadian F/A-18s as well.

Sentinel, Sentry and VC-10s will no doubt be in the supporting role. It's good to see the Sentinel being deployed as I really hope it's not phased out in 2015. Would the Italians deploy their new 767s to refuel F-16s?
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:40 pm

The Norwegian government has confirmed that 6 F16's and 1 P3c / P3N is preparing for mission in Libya. Other material is considered too. Norwegians have already been involved in the AWACS survailance for some time now.
 
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting highlander0 (Reply 38):
The BBC has said the RAF will probably send 9 Sqn and 31 Sqn of Tornados, 9 Sqn being AGM specialists and 31 Sqn Storm Shadow users. Indeed I had thought that Tornados using ALARMs, USN F/A-18s using HARMs and E-6Bs as EW support would be the first wave; possibly Typhoons as supercruising bomb trucks for precision strikes as the second wave with European F-16s and Canadian F/A-18s as well.

In this slideshow, the last photo shows EA-18Gs on standby at Aviano.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12794623

Reportedly there are Mirage/Rafales over Benghazzi as I type this.
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highlander0
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 40):
In this slideshow, the last photo shows EA-18Gs on standby at Aviano.

Shit- I wasn't aware that the Growler (always reminds me of the Scottish slang for a 'lady garden') had passed IOC, has it?
 
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par13del
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:31 pm

Quoting highlander0 (Reply 38):
You're right- unless US oil companies get deals for Libyan Oil/Gas, then this has little to do besides stopping the 'Leader of the Revolution'/'Father of Barrak Hussein Obama' (as he said in his letters today) killing 000s of people.

Last I checked, the US was not the largest user of oil from the Middle East, even Iraq selected non-US companies as their main co-partners, so yes oil is important to the US but it seems they are ensuring it is flowing for others.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
The 1991 Gulf War was at least necessary to liberate Kuwait. But this time there isn't even an intention to liberate anybody. We only realize that thousands (or even millions) of people are eager to kill each other, to which we can do nothing. But doing "something" seems to make an expectation of some "feel good" on a later date.

Good points but I think we still need to know why Libya. Other countries have had their citizens at war against each other and no one has been gung ho about doing anything to prevent it, how about Somalia, Yemen same continent right?
If we ensured a working government was in place the billions being sent on patrolling and paying ransom's would be saved, but that's for another thread.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:47 pm

French fighters have started buzzing over Libya

1) Mirage and Rafales deployed

2) Flying for the time being ONLY over rebel controlled areas

Quote:
"In accord with our partners, our air forces will oppose any aggression by Col. Gaddafi's airplanes against the population of Benghazi. Already, our planes are preventing air attacks against the city. Already, other French planes are ready to intervene against tanks that would threaten unarmed civilians," Sarkozy said in a brief declaration.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/li...ce-immediate-military-action-92820
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LMP737
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:51 pm

I asked this rhetorical question over on non-av. What happens if the mad colonel decides to keep his air force on the ground but press ahead with the ground assault. To effectively engage targets on the ground in a rapidly changing battlefield you need boots on the ground to designate targets. Is NATO willing to take this step? What if a plane goes down in hostile or even "friendly" territory. What sort of CSAR assets does NATO have close enough to make a difference?
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par13del
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 43):
French fighters have started buzzing over Libya

Any chance they shot down the rebel MIG in error?
BBC has a video up not very good resolution, but I did not see any tracer fire going up but did see the flash of the hit, it could have been a missile.
Guns can be heard in the background, but AAA usually has some tracer rounds, will continue to look at the video.
 
GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:28 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 44):
Is NATO willing to take this step? What if a plane goes down in hostile or even "friendly" territory. What sort of CSAR assets does NATO have close enough to make a difference?

Some observers suggest the no 'boots on the ground' will exclude SAS/SBS in the forward air controller role.
Since the UK government does not officially comment on SF operations they are not there!

Aside from that rather ill advised escort of the abortive MI6 contact with the rebels, they did of course also provide security and surveillance for the evacuation by C-130's from the desert prior to that.
(This part of the world was where the SAS were formed in WW2).

France confirms that first strikes have occurred against Libyan government vehicles, one confirmed destroyed.
No doubt a follow up to the recce sweeps earlier today.
 
LMP737
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 46):
Some observers suggest the no 'boots on the ground' will exclude SAS/SBS in the forward air controller role.
Since the UK government does not officially comment on SF operations they are not there!



If pro-Colonel Nut Job forces start getting blown up on a regular basis that will answer the question about whether or not there are boots on the ground.

Quoting GDB (Reply 46):
Aside from that rather ill advised escort of the abortive MI6 contact with the rebels



That's one of those situations that could have spiraled out of control. Thankfully it did not, more than a few lessons in that episode. Could have provided Hollywood with a Blackhawk Down sequel. This time American actors playing Brits instead of British actors playing Americans.  
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Bureaucromancer
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:49 pm

Personally I don't interpret the resolution as saying no boots on the ground at all. It says no occupation, which realistically means that foreign forces can't be the ones to actually remove him from power, but there is still a significant difference between "no ground forces" and "all means excluding foreign occupation".
 
Beta
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:30 pm

Is this the 1st time the EF-Typhoon has been used in combat mission over hostile territory with strong likelihood of air-to-air engagement? It's also interesting to see how it performs in air-to-ground missions in Libya. If it performs up to par, I see some good sales in the future. Hello, Indian AF, ME customers, and potential Asian customers like SK, Japan, SE Asian countries. Same applies to the French Rafale, although I remember the Rafale has done some bombing missions over A-stan.
I suppose the F-teen series will carry the load of the US contribution to the air campaign, while the USAF's shiny new toy, F-22s sit in the tarmac stateside. It would be 1 awe-inspiring sight for spotters to see the EF-Typhoon, Rafale, F-22, the F-teens all line up in the taxi ways ready to rumble. (disclaimer: not meant as an endorsement/disagreement of the political decision to commit forces in Libya).
Btw, Are the Italian AF KC-767s (whatever designation for the Italian) ready to do the aerial refueling mission for this campaign, or they are still in the work-up process? If that were to happen, it would be one heck of a boost to Boeing. Not that it matters now, but still.

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