Oykie
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Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:53 pm

Norway's defence minister just stated that Norway has agreed to take 4 F-35 for training starting in 2016.

Does anyone know what block these planes will be in, and when they will be produced? I guess these are the Low rate initial production airplanes?

The rest of the planes will start arriving in 2018. Not sure if these trainers will be supplemented by the already announced order, or if this is just the first firm order of the original letter of intent.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
Arniepie
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RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:22 am

That sounds a lot like the tactics used by the ,now out of office, government of the Netherlands when they ordered 2 "development " aircraft to be more comitted to the program making it practically impossible for future governments to step away from the project at a date after their legislature.

They must be afraid that the JSF will be too delayed for it to enter into service under their rule , fearing that, after the next election, they might be out of the loop and the new government might decide to step out of the JSF adventure going for one of its cheaper alternatives (F15Se, F18SH, Grippen NG, EF, ....... ).
[edit post]
 
mffoda
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RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:33 am

Quoting arniepie (Reply 1):
That sounds a lot like the tactics used by the ,now out of office, government of the Netherlands when they ordered 2 "development " aircraft to be more comitted to the program making it practically impossible for future governments to step away from the project at a date after their legislature.

They must be afraid that the JSF will be too delayed for it to enter into service under their rule , fearing that, after the next election, they might be out of the loop and the new government might decide to step out of the JSF adventure going for one of its cheaper alternatives (F15Se, F18SH, Grippen NG, EF, ....... ).




I doubt they will step out...

There are contracts/potential contracts worth tens of Billions of dollars associated with the F-35 program to European manufacturing companies alone... Worth way more in manufacturing value then the purchase of few hundred Grippen NG's. Not to mention that allot of the Grippen's major components are of US origin anyway?

And lets not forget the potential tax issues.... Quote: From AW...

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...asd/2011/04/07/05.xml&headline=New F-35 Cost Concerns Emerge

“Every country would like to collect, but nobody wants to pay for it,” says Tom Burbage, Lockheed Martin F-35 executive vice president and general manager. In some cases, parts will travel to the future Alenia Aeronautica final assembly site in Italy, where all European F-35s (other than the U.K. aircraft) will be completed, and never touch U.S. soil, he adds.

“Tariffs and VAT [value-added tax] costs could exceed $3 billion ... and it could be a lot of extra cost if we can’t resolve that,” Burbage warns. In an effort to avoid the financial burden, the program has formed an international working group to tackle the issue."


We should probably not give too much leeway to the news media regarding the real true acquisition costs of the F-35. There are too many variables(Spin) to consider... However, We do know what the US has paid for the first 5 LRIP's... And in each of the LRIP's the costs have continually dropped as the number of A/C purchased have increased ...
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
328JET
Posts: 348
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RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:37 am

I doubt norway is lookat at the price as much as other countries...

Norway is, after the small state luxembourg, by far the richest country in europe.

When it really comes to a new decision, it is a political decision.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 3):
Norway is, after the small state luxembourg, by far the richest country in europe.

On a per capita basis, yes on overall wealth they are pretty far down the list. People here are questioning the cost, especially in light of the Canadian article.
 
328JET
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:16 pm

RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
People here are questioning the cost, especially in light of the Canadian article.

Countries which really trust in the contracted price should order an available frame...

Every new military program has big delay and far higher unit prices than contracted.


I think the question is more if the JSF is really needed with all these available and coming aircrafts:

Eurofighter
Rafale
Super Hornet
Silent Eagle
Gripen NG
F16 with the latest updates

etc.
 
Oykie
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RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:23 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 5):
I think the question is more if the JSF is really needed with all these available and coming aircrafts:

The design requirements for the F-35:

Quote:
The F-35 is required to be four times more effective than legacy fighters in air-to-air combat, eight times more effective than legacy fighters in air-to-ground combat, and three times more effective than legacy fighters in reconnaissance and suppression of air defenses – while having better range and requiring less logistics support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II

While these are impressive numbers, the Wikipedia article also states that:

Quote:
However, a United States Navy study found that the F-35 will cost 30 to 40 percent more to maintain than current jet fighters


If the plane would be able to perform within requirements, but at the same cost as current generation fighters, then the F-35 would wipe out all competition. With the cost overruns and maintenance costs increase over current generation fighters the future might not be as bright as I would like it to be.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5259
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RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:50 pm

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Norway's defence minister just stated that Norway has agreed to take 4 F-35 for training starting in 2016.

Lucky them! Even the USAF is penny-pinching and will use T-38s for F-22 aggressor training.....  .

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...y-for-f_22-adversary-training.html

Quote:
"LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va. --- Following a successful test run in March 2010 and approval by Air Combat Command officials, the first of several T-38 Talons from Holloman Air Force Base, N.M., arrived here April 1 for the beginning of the 1st Operations Group's T-38 Adversary Air Program.

Col. Matt Molloy, the 1st Fighter Wing's commander, and Col. Kevin Mastin, the 1st FW's vice commander, escorted the aircraft to here to bolster F-22 Raptor training using cost-effective training exercises and supplementing flight training for future pilots."



Quoting 328JET (Reply 5):

I think the question is more if the JSF is really needed with all these available and coming aircrafts:

And the question with the last three is if air forces would order those in significant numbers to make them a reality.
(save for the UAE's Block 60 Vipers)







[Edited 2011-04-10 17:11:04]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
328JET
Posts: 348
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RE: Norway Buy's 4 F-35 For Training

Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 6):
The F-35 is required to be four times more effective than legacy fighters in air-to-air combat, eight times more effective than legacy fighters in air-to-ground combat, and three times more effective than legacy fighters in reconnaissance and suppression of air defenses – while having better range and requiring less logistics support.

"is required to be...

I think that part of the quote says it all.

I do not doubt the capabilities, but i doubt they are required in comparison to other existing and planned fighters.

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