wilco737
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Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 6:09 am

Just saw that on the news.

German Air Force Airbus was flying from Germany to India and wanted to overfly Iran. Shortly prior entering Iranian airspace the overflight permission was revoked and the airplane had to circle around turkey for 2 hours until they were allowed to continue.
The airplane had to land in Turkey to refuel.

Link only in German:

http://www.n24.de/news/newsitem_6937152.html

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keuleatr72
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 6:36 am

A second Luftwaffe Airbus with four german ministers/secretaries was allowed to enter the iranian airspace and continued to India as planned.

Link in english...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,765823,00.html
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Burkhard
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 6:41 am

It looks like
a) one Iranian agency did not know what the other did
b) somebody in Iran wanted to show their muscles

Why on Earth they choose Mrs. Merkel, who is far from being a hard liner against them, will lead to a severe discussion inside Iran I think.
 
wilco737
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 7:55 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2):
It looks like
a) one Iranian agency did not know what the other did
b) somebody in Iran wanted to show their muscles

Or some mistake was made during flight planning. One airplane had the permission to overfly the Iran, the other did not. That could happen.
The mistake doesn't need to be automatically on Irans side. Perhaps the Germans made a mistake as well.

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gkirk
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 8:11 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 3):
Perhaps the Germans made a mistake as well.

Germans? Make a mistake? Never  

What would David Hasselhoff think?   


Seriously though, I thought Germany and Iran were on speaking terms? Or does the Iranian government consider Germany to be Western Infidels as well?
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PanHAM
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 8:19 am

Not sure if this is the right forum here since that was a government flight.

No, seriously, the overflight rights had been applied for and granted by Iran. They are playing funny games and they could not care less about the diplomatic affront which results out of this. The Iranian ambassador has already been summoned to the foreign office in Berlin, he will get the usual speech which is by the textbook and that will be it.

The background of all this is, Germany has just ordered an Iranian Bank in Hamburg to close and hit the road and that bank has handled the financial transaction of an Indian / Iranian oil deal.

What a beautiful chance to slap Mrs Merkel in the face for that by holding her for 2 hours in Turkish air space?
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baw217
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 9:24 am

The Iranian Airports Company who look after the airspace above Iran and are very efficient and helpful. Theran ACC's air traffic controllers are probably the best in the Middle East and Southern Asia. If they had no clearence for the aircraft, they would not allow it to enter.

Diplomatic clearence for Iran is not the easiest thing to obtain, I know the British Government avoids the use of Iranian airspace on all diplomatic flights (Military charters and Military aircraft), because Britian has no Defence Attache in Tehran who would be responsible in obtaining them and keeping a solid working relationship with the Iranain ministry of foreign affairs, who are responisble for issueing diplomatic clearences.
 
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AirIndia
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 9:33 am

As per GC from Berlin to Delhi by passes Iran completely. Why the need to go over Iran then? Maybe there are certain limitations but i am not aware of them and would be keen to learn.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=TXL-DEL&MS=wls&MR=360&MX=720x360&PM=*
 
wilco737
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 9:50 am

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 7):
As per GC from Berlin to Delhi by passes Iran completely. Why the need to go over Iran then? Maybe there are certain limitations but i am not aware of them and would be keen to learn.

In a perfect world you would always fly great circle distance. but not in the real world. Many airspaces are closed and you have to take huge detours to get to your destination or because ther are simple no overflight rights or it is too expensive to go the shorter way (yes that's possible). ATC is very different in many countries, some are extremly expensive and you avoid these airspaces and take the detour instead.
Routing to India often takes you over Iran, not all the way through, mostly only a part and then via Pakistan to India. Did that many times myself. Of course you have to consider the winds. Maybe the winds over Iran were better.

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spr773
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 10:47 am

Speaking of detours if I remember correctly El-Al does not overfly several Arabic countries. So their flight paths often zigzag over friendly airspace when coming in to land in Israel.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 11:50 am

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 7):
AirIndia

Perhaps Merkel did not, or could not overfly Pakistan? That would make a diversion through Iran neccessary. India and Pakistan are not on good terms, but does the ATC system in each country coordinate for transit aircraft with each other?

My guess is Iran knew Merkel was aboard (poosibly due to the call sign?), and wanted to embarass her?
 
c680
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 11:55 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Perhaps Merkel did not, or could not overfly Pakistan?

I know it's a Luftwaffe plane, but perhaps they prefer their Chancelor to avoid Afghanistan?
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Burkhard
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 11:59 am

Quoting C680 (Reply 11):
I know it's a Luftwaffe plane, but perhaps they prefer their Chancelor to avoid Afghanistan?

My thinking, looking onto the map Iran still is the most friendly country near that route...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 12:28 pm

The route was over the Caucasian moiuntains, the Caspian Sea into Iran and from there over Pakistan to India. The Iranian authorities most certainly knew that Mrs Merkel was on that VIP flight and it was a direct political affront. They did not even pick up the phones and it was someone from the Turkish government whoi finally reached the clearance on behalf of the German government, More or less last minute, as otherwise the A340 would have had to refuel at ANK.. The visit in India is timed for 24 hours and it looks like the 2 hours have to be cut somewhere in the program



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breiz
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 12:38 pm

Quoting keuleatr72 (Reply 1):
A second Luftwaffe Airbus with four german ministers/secretaries was allowed to enter the iranian airspace and continued to India as planned.


Now, a different angle on that news.
Two ac, one A340 and one A310 maybe, to carry the German officials?
Not to put all the eggs in the same basket, or Chancellor Merkel and Defense Minister de Maizière don't talk to each other?  
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 12:39 pm

Is it possible that some mistake was made with the flight plan? I don't think Iranian authorities are that stupid to create a diplomatic problem for a previously approved flight. If they didn't want them to fly Iranian airspace, they would have denied the flight plan in the first place.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 1:12 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 15):
Is it possible that some mistake was made with the flight plan?

absolutely not.they had all the clearances. This is an unprecendet diplomatic affront, at least for a German head of government. Foreign office, chancellory and air force would not put tha delegation into jeopardy and despatch the aircraft without clearances.

Quoting breiz (Reply 14):
Two ac, one A340 and one A310 maybe, to carry the German officials?

The second one could be an A319 as well, large delegation to carry, jurnalists, business people , quite normal to send 2 aircraft. Other countries despatch 2 747s
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EZEIZA
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 1:19 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
absolutely not.they had all the clearances. This is an unprecendet diplomatic affront, at least for a German head of government.

But then why allow one plane and not the other? I agree that a mistake at this level is nearly impossible, but I can't see the sense of allowing one plane only.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 1:47 pm

We have only one Chancellor and she was on the plane that was denied overflying Iran. The four ministers on the other aircraft were of lesser interest.
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solarflyer22
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 2:03 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 17):
But then why allow one plane and not the other? I agree that a mistake at this level is nearly impossible, but I can't see the sense of allowing one plane only.

That's good point. Why only approve one plane. It could be good an old fashioned mistake but my guess is that its not.

The government has a long history of retaliating with the inverse of what was done to them (not refueling planes in IKA e.g.) so I would not be surprised to find out that one of their diplomatic flights did not receive airspace to carry Ahmadinejad or the likes. By waiting to the last second, they make it that much for inconvenient. Sadly, the US does something similar for Visas for undesirable speakers at the UN in New York City.
 
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robffm2
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 2:13 pm

There is a pic of the IFE map posted on spiegel.de:

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-220483-galleryV9-vjlh.jpg
source: spiegel.de
 
tjcab
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 3:28 pm

These things happen. We can speculate all day. What about the Luftwaffe plane was turned back by the US gov during the Katrina crisis?
 
B738FlyUIA
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 3:46 pm

Link in German.
http://www.20min.ch/news/ausland/sto...t-Merkels-Airbus--berflug-14998169

Quoting breiz (Reply 14):
.....A310 maybe, to carry the German officials?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 18):
The four ministers on the other aircraft were of lesser interest.

Sounds really very super VIP with 4 ministers in a A310  

Wonder if it would be the same if Obama in the AirForce One would be the same issue or with other Presidents!
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 3:48 pm

It is HIGHLY unlikely this was a mistake. This is a purposful "slap in the face"-as the Iranians like to say-to Chancellor Merkel.
 
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 4:03 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 23):
It is HIGHLY unlikely this was a mistake

I guess so to! And as mentioned in the thred there where some parties involved. Meaning the right hand doens't know what the left one is doing!!
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 4:13 pm

I agree a mistake is highly, highly unlikely, but I still can't see any logic in allowing one plane in. If Iran is trying to send a message of some sort, then stop all flights going through its skies, not just one, even if it does have the most important person in it. However, with the same thought, maybe the Iranians made a mistake by allowing one of the two planes ??
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PanHAM
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 4:27 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 25):
I agree a mistake is highly, highly unlikely, but I still can't see any logic in allowing one plane in

I did not write that in my previous reply, but since that explanation was not sufficient - the Chancellor is a woman, whereas the other ministers are men. That and the fact that they wanted to pinch the chief executive and not the ministers makes perfectly sense.

Anyone who believes that this was a mistake or that the one hand did not know what the other did is wrong. This was a perfectly engineered affront by the Iranian regime and for the reason look up my reply #5.

They even have timed it so that the A340 did not have to refuel in Turkey and could continue to DEL.
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RobK
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 4:33 pm

I think it's quite funny! Merkel must have been raging.   
 
B777LRF
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 4:36 pm

EZEIZA,

If we suppose the purpose of this action was to insult Mrs. Merkel, it could be seen as an added benefit letting the accompanying flight slip by while keeping Mrs. Merkel and entourage in a holding pattern. It might also, when the smelly parts hits the spinning bits, provide a nice cover under the claims of general confusion, or any number of other excuses one feels like cooking up - one needs looking no further than this humble thread for inspiration.

From what we've come to know of the dinner jacket and his merry men, an action such as the one alleged here is certainly not something I would put beyond them, even on a good day. But when you add to that the closing of a bank in Hamburg, which must have been rather painful to the Iranians, and the ease with with the Iranian government assumes the role of the insulted, it is starting to look as if this might have been a deliberate act.

Lack of overflight permits, even incorrect process of said permits on the Iranian side, is the most unlikely thing about this story. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Iranian FIR is very well managed and is functioning on the same level one would expect from a well developed nation. So while making a mistake with a flightplan is of course not impossible, the chances of making a mistake with a flightplan carrying a foreign head of government are very remote indeed.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions.
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Semaex
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 4:49 pm

So did the A340 refuel in Turkey or did it not? Some posts here state one or the other.

What I read so far is that it was the purpose-maiden's flight of the involved A340... not a nice start into service at all. Can anybody confirm this (Spiegel Online) information?
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oldeuropean
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 27):
I think it's quite funny! Merkel must have been raging.

No it's said, that she was sleeping while it happened and later:

Quote:
Merkel herself was relaxed in her reaction, saying only that it had been an "interesting start to the trip."

 
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something
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 5:05 pm

I may be way off with this, but hasn't Ahmadinejad been denied access to or overflight rights over certain countries lately? I seem to recall something like that. I can't remember what exactly happened but it was something to do with his 707. Maybe someone with better memory can elaborate on that?
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goblin211
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 5:20 pm

interesting. i think at this piont any ally of the US is more than likely to be not a friend with Iran. i don't see what the problem is with permitting two planes to go through regardless.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
I did not write that in my previous reply, but since that explanation was not sufficient - the Chancellor is a woman, whereas the other ministers are men. That and the fact that they wanted to pinch the chief executive and not the ministers makes perfectly sense
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 28):
If we suppose the purpose of this action was to insult Mrs. Merkel, it could be seen as an added benefit letting the accompanying flight slip by while keeping Mrs. Merkel and entourage in a holding pattern. It might also, when the smelly parts hits the spinning bits, provide a nice cover under the claims of general confusion, or any number of other excuses one feels like cooking up - one needs looking no further than this humble thread for inspiration

fair enough, and I don't disagree that this might be the case, but then why hide it? What could Iran possibly prove, or gain from not allowing the plane through, only to allow it a few hours later?
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NoUFO
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RE: Iran Forbid Overflight Of German Air Force Airbus

Tue May 31, 2011 9:11 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 29):
So did the A340 refuel in Turkey or did it not?

No, they did not refuel in Turkey.



The Iranians now claim the pilots had used the wrong call sign and the Iranians "needed only 20 minutes to sort out the mistake" which appears to be bollocks as the Airbus was circling for 2 hours not 20 minutes.

The Germans on the other hand stress they had used the correct call sign and wonder if the Iranians had trouble assigning the familiar callsign of the A310 to the new A340 as the new aircraft uses the callsign of its predecessor.
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