comorin
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LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:53 pm

Bloomberg reports that Lockheed Martin is looking for a way to offer the F-35 as an MRCA candidate to the IAF:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...-11-billion-india-jet-contest.html

Is it too late to to get the foot in the door?

Nice plane...
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:06 pm

No I wouldnt think it would be too late. India getting a chance to get an advanced stealth aircraft like the F-35 I would say they would wait.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:26 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 1):
No I wouldnt think it would be too late. India getting a chance to get an advanced stealth aircraft like the F-35 I would say they would wait.

They already will have the Sukhoi T-50 (HAL FGFA) as stealth aircraft. Why should they need such a more expensive aircraft?

[Edited 2011-06-23 13:30:32]

[Edited 2011-06-23 13:33:16]
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:47 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):
They already will have the Sukhoi T-50 (HAL FGFA) as stealth aircraft. Why should they need such a more expensive aircraft?

Maybe if it stays on schedule. From what I have seen the F-35 is mor advanced than the t-50. I do know india has some stock in the t-50 but I still think the F-35 would fit into the mold somewhere. There is also not a set price on the T-50 we will have to wait and see which aircraft turns out to be more expensive.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:28 pm

Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India".

Has ANYONE gotten what they wanted with the F35 program?
 
comorin
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India".

   There was once a King of Siam who was given a gift of an elephant with a whitish color...
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:20 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India"
Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
There was once a King of Siam who was given a gift of an elephant with a whitish color...

    

Yes it is too late. this selection is going by the book - given the huge corruption problems and given How ms Sonia gandhi's husband got caught red handed with bofors - its virtually impossible that the rules will change.

that doesn't rule out a later deal though - but it has no chance in the MMRCA contest
Vi veri universum vivus vici
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:21 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Has ANYONE gotten what they wanted with the F35 program?

Yes LM pockets...lol
 
328JET
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:42 pm

India is always very interested in offset-deals.

And i really doubt LM could offer these...
 
Devilfish
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
given the huge corruption problems and given How ms Sonia gandhi's husband got caught red handed with bofors - its virtually impossible that the rules will change

They changed the rules/requirements when the tender transitioned from MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) comprising Dassault Mirage 2000-9, LockMart F-16C/D Falcon, MiG-29 and Saab JAS-39 Gripen to MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) to include Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, LockMart F-16IN Super Viper, MiG-35 and Saab Gripen NG. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but AFAIK, Russia still hasn't signed the "covenant" on defense contracts with India and seemingly has no intention to?

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35_Left_Wingover_Rear_View_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...-35_Left_Wingover_Rear_View_lg.jpg


Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):

that doesn't rule out a later deal though - but it has no chance in the MMRCA contest

People had been harping on the American entries as old generation aircraft that would be irrelevant before they reach their envisioned service life. Now India is being offered true cutting edge technology and the same people are getting on about how the price would escalate. Could they get the same level of technology and performance for a lower or similar outlay.....and when? Wouldn't it be better to save the expense on the MMRCA and FGFA and invest those instead on the more advanced JSF?


Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):
India is always very interested in offset-deals.

And i really doubt LM could offer these...

As one of the biggest defense contractors (if not the biggest) in the world, Lockheed Martin is very well positioned to fulfill any offset requirements. However, things like EUM may hinder wider involvement in the Indian market.

[Edited 2011-06-28 11:02:26]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Devilfish
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:30 pm

The US ups (or rather "lowers") the ante.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/

Quote:
"She expressed her country's willingness to sell state-of-the-art F 35 warplanes to India at 'unbelievable' prices. The Americans are understood to have asked the Indian government to open its purse strings for the Lockheed built fifth generation super stealth F-35 Lightning the basic model of which is being made available to India for $ 65 million apiece. The Indian defence establishment would naturally find the offer too good to be true as much inferior fourth generation French Rafale is priced at $ 85 million and Eurofighter Typhoon (also a fourth generation aircraft) at $ 125 million apiece."

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):

They already will have the Sukhoi T-50 (HAL FGFA) as stealth aircraft. Why should they need such a more expensive aircraft?

Well, if LM could stick to the offered price (a guaranteed 126-frame order could ensure that), India is one place where bargains are understood and appreciated (except by those who stand to lose).

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 6):
that doesn't rule out a later deal though - but it has no chance in the MMRCA contest

India has accepted the $43M per frame cost for the Mirage 2000 upgrade to -9 standard...with a separate $700M weapons package on top of that. At $65M a copy for the F-35, methinks the MMRCA deal is on pretty shaky ground.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...gn-indian-mirage-upgrade-deal.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-awaited-mirage-2000h-upgrade.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
comorin
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:06 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 10):

This is an amazing deal - just take it, guys! Embrace Mother USA! Reminds me of the days when we used to get a polish ham from McDD at Christmas - they had bartered their planes for ham...anyone else from DAC/MAC remember that?   
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:36 am

Too late.....Choice is left with the last two now.......
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
comorin
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:21 pm

The MRCA deal is now approaching the bid-opening phase. The first step is for the Ministry to come up with a fair price benchmark based on reviews of similar deals elsewhere. This will be compared to the lowest bid (L1) and if L1 is excessive, then the whole process is cancelled and restarted. This could be a scenario where the F-35 sneaks in.
 
Oroka
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:43 am

Isn't $65m around what was quoted for Canada for F-35s?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:12 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
Isn't $65m around what was quoted for Canada for F-35s?

I really really hope thats a quote for basic airframe lacking warfighting electronics and weapons systems. If not the american taxpayer its getting donkey punched by the 800lbs gorrila LM and its paid for generals and senators.
 
Oroka
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:17 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 15):
I really really hope thats a quote for basic airframe lacking warfighting electronics and weapons systems. If not the american taxpayer its getting donkey punched by the 800lbs gorrila LM and its paid for generals and senators.

Probably dry weight, but a lot of the weapon systems that would be add on features of other fighters are integrated in the F-35... not optional. I think the commonly quoted price for the F-35 for the US includes development costs, something that foreign buyers dont have to pay.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
They changed the rules/requirements when the tender transitioned from MRCA (multi-role combat aircraft) comprising Dassault Mirage 2000-9

No that was done post issuance of EOI but prior to the issue of RFPs.
More worryingly there were reports the Rafale was the first plane to flounder the tests and get kicked out but was re-instated in the competition reportedly after a call from the midget of the elysee.

One thing i find very disturbing - the vernacular media are full of it and the English media seem hell bent on ignoring it - apparently our Italian woman spoke to their Italian woman about a retirement package and the contract is going to the Rafale.... the license production agreement for the Snecma M-88 is probably the indicator.

I wouldn't be surprised if the DGCE got dirt on the Gandhi's - after all they openly admitted to this wrt the initial mirage contract in 1982.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Russia still hasn't signed the "covenant" on defense contracts with India and seemingly has no intention to?

correct - which is why Russia doesn't win multi national competitions - it win sole source single vendor contracts where the prereq for the covenant seems not to apply

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Now India is being offered true cutting edge technology and the same people are getting on about how the price would escalate. Could they get the same level of technology and performance for a lower or similar outlay.....and when? Wouldn't it be better to save the expense on the MMRCA and FGFA and invest those instead on the more advanced JSF?

My dear - this is India..................... please do not equate intelligence or common sense with it. If you do - well boo to you!

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Lockheed Martin is very well positioned to fulfill any offset requirements.

yes it is - but the US Gov wont let it, that's the problem

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 10):
India has accepted the $43M per frame cost for the Mirage 2000 upgrade to -9 standard...with a separate $700M weapons package on top of that. At $65M a copy for the F-35, methinks the MMRCA deal is on pretty shaky ground

Nope - again - this is India

Quoting comorin (Reply 11):
This is an amazing deal - just take it, guys!

This is India - we are like this only!
Vi veri universum vivus vici
 
ThePointblank
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:57 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 17):
yes it is - but the US Gov wont let it, that's the problem

It depends. The US government is more than willing to allow US defence contractors to provide 100% of contract value as industrial offsets in Canada, because we are trusted allies. I think at how Indian-US relations are warming up, they will be willing to do the same.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:00 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 18):
I think at how Indian-US relations are warming up, they will be willing to do the same.

Offset yes - technology no - And the problem is India's offset clauses insist on ToT.
Vi veri universum vivus vici
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:31 am

While I was for it in an earlier post I think if I was India I would say thanks but no thanks they cant even get the thing devloped for the host country let alone exporting it.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:46 am

Glad to note that the Choice will finally be made on the 126 craft.....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
474218
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:57 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4):
Uh, Is it bad that I equate this with "LM to offer communicable diseases to India".

Has ANYONE gotten what they wanted with the F35 program?

I think India's interest in the Lockheed Martin F-3 is based on their experience with the C-130J's. I read in Aviation Week that they were pleased with the J's performance and the fact they were delivered early, something India had not experience before.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:04 am

Its Either of the remaining two now.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Devilfish
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:57 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 17):

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 9):
Now India is being offered true cutting edge technology and the same people are getting on about how the price would escalate. Could they get the same level of technology and performance for a lower or similar outlay.....and when? Wouldn't it be better to save the expense on the MMRCA and FGFA and invest those instead on the more advanced JSF?

My dear - this is India..................... please do not equate intelligence or common sense with it.

Well, it seems LockMart still has a believer in the Indian press.....   .

http://www.business-standard.com/ind...a-end-this-mmrca-hara-kiri/454091/

Quote:
"Years later, as the IAF finds itself choosing between two Gen-4+ aircraft, it must also note that the F-35 is on the cusp of operational clearance. It’s manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has signalled in multiple ways that it would supply the IAF that fighter at a fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft (significantly cheaper than the Rafale and the Typhoon) with deliveries beginning by 2015. Washington has indicated that any F-35 sale to India would be expeditiously cleared. But for an insecure IAF, used to being shoved around by the MoD, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The MMRCA purchase would bring in six squadrons of reasonably good fighters, even if they were outclassed by the PLAAF in war. Any change at this state, or so the IAF believes and accepts, would require fresh MoD clearances and financial sanctions that could take another three years.

But there is an alternative. The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract. The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding."



In any case, the result would be known in days.....but stranger things have happened. Hopefully, the IAF wouldn't be haunted by ghosts of this acquisition.   
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
bennett123
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:25 pm

How can LM guarantee a price of $65M?.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:58 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 25):
How can LM guarantee a price of $65M?.

US taxpayers getting ripped off.
Possibly other nations as well depending on how poorly they structured thier agreement.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 26):
US taxpayers getting ripped off.
Possibly other nations as well depending on how poorly they structured thier agreement.

My guess will be any Indian order will be for aircraft further down the production line. The further down the production line you go, the cheaper the aircraft gets.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 24):
The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract. The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding

Do you know how often this argument has been used for shady deals? Business Standard is run by Sanjaya Baru well known in academic circles as an American stooge - one of the reasons he got shunted out of the Prime Ministers Office. By the way he's taking over the Indian operations of the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) beginning tomorrow. And Ajai shukla will believe just about anything - one of the reasons he gets so much access to equipment is because he gets "FED" information by the services in their running dispute with the bureaucrats.

I would urge you to look carefully at the nuances in Indian defence reportage - especially the "lobbies" each of these so called "respected" journalists belong to. There's a very good reason that they get feted at 5 star hotels by GE or EADS but never get invited to conferences involving academia where they would be ripped apart in no time flat.
Vi veri universum vivus vici
 
474218
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:37 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 25):
How can LM guarantee a price of $65M?.

They will sell them using a "commercial" contract. Just like they did when they sold the C-130J's to the RAF and a much lower price than the US DoD would pay.
 
bennett123
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:26 pm

Perhaps the DOD should wise up.
 
Devilfish
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:29 pm

The DoD has just confirmed the offer.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-confirms-f_35-offer-to-india.html

Quote:
Joint Strike Fighter and Potential Co-Development of Military Weapons Systems

The Department of Defense is continually looking for ways to expand defense cooperation with India. We are seeking opportunities for increased science and technology cooperation that may lead to co-development opportunities with India as a partner.

[.....]

Despite this setback, we believe U.S. aircraft, such as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), to be the best in the world. Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements (infrastructure, security, etc.) to support India’s future planning.

The United States has taken many steps in recent years to facilitate science and technology and research and development cooperation with India. In so doing, we have signaled our unambiguous intent to pursue cooperative opportunities on increasingly sophisticated systems. As our relationship continues to mature, we expect co-development of armaments to become a reality.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
rolfen
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:10 pm

I hope this is not too much off topic, but I'm under the impression - unless I have fallen behind on the latest developments - that this class of stealth aircraft aren't really stealth (not enough to justify the price), and that drones and surface-to-air AA missiles are the way to go.
rolf
 
ThePointblank
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:42 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 29):

They will sell them using a "commercial" contract. Just like they did when they sold the C-130J's to the RAF and a much lower price than the US DoD would pay.

Well, the number of man hours required to assemble a F-35 has decreased over time; for example, F-35 AF-13 from LRIP 2 took 110,000 touch-labor hours compared to F-35 number 1 which needed roughly 250,000 touch-labor hours to assemble. It is hoped that the learning curve will help reduce the number of hours down to 50,000 touch-labor hours per aircraft. FYI, this means the learning curve is falling that is falling at roughly the same rate as did the learning curves for Lockheed's single-variant F-22 and F-16.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: LM May Offer F-35 To India On Fighter Deal

Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:00 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 28):
I would urge you to look carefully at the nuances in Indian defence reportage - especially the "lobbies" each of these so called "respected" journalists belong to. There's a very good reason that they get feted at 5 star hotels by GE or EADS but never get invited to conferences involving academia where they would be ripped apart in no time flat.

Amazingly.....The Press Parties are not reserved to Civil Aviation it seems  
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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