EGSUcrew
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P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:46 pm

Hi all,
Apologies if this is in the wrong section, please move it if it is.

There's no good news article to link to but this is roughly what happened:

At Duxford's (EGSU) Flying Legends show this afternoon (10th july), an A-1 Skyraider and a P-51 Mustang collided mid-air. The collision caused the tail section of the Mustang to seperate from the aircraft. The pilot ejected and the parachute was effective; he has been taken to hospital for checks but reports claim he walked away from the accident. The airframe plunged into a field from around 300' and I would assume it has been lost but no confirmation of it's condition. The Skyraider lost part of its wing but managed to land safely; as of 1900L, the aircraft was still on runway 24R/06L (the grass runway).


Skyraider Hits P-51 at Duxford


[Edited 2011-07-10 12:49:42]

[Edited 2011-07-10 12:50:18]
 
n53614
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:40 pm

From the sound of it, this could have been much worse! I'm glad the Mustang pilot was able to get out and that the Spad landed safely.
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EGSUcrew
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:43 pm

Could've been far worse. A matter of inches could've resulted in total losses. There was a sigh of relief in the crowd after we saw the 'chute blossom.
 
Navion
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:29 pm

Lucky for the Mustang pilot he was able to get out as the Mustang does not have an ejection seat. Glad both pilots appear to be alright. Now to find out which Mustang was destroyed.
 
EGSUcrew
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 3):
Lucky for the Mustang pilot he was able to get out as the Mustang does not have an ejection seat.

Sorry I don't know why I put that, I meant 'escaped'!

Considering the speed of the fallng aircraft, he did well to open the hatch. I coldn't see but I was wondering because he was doing a low pass at a relatively low speed on quite a warm day whether he had the canopy slightly open?

Quoting Navion (Reply 3):
Now to find out which Mustang was destroyed.

And yes, I am trying to find out. BTW, the Skyraider involved was RM-24143 / F-AZDP

[Edited 2011-07-10 14:36:34]
 
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Moose135
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:37 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 3):
Now to find out which Mustang was destroyed.

"Big Beautiful Doll"

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Photo © Radoslaw Idaszak

KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
Navion
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:45 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 5):
"Big Beautiful Doll"

What a shame. Thanks for the information guys. Glad the pilots are o.k., sad we lost a great warbird.
 
EGSUcrew
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting Navion (Reply 6):

We lost the B-17 a few weeks ago and now the Mustang, a real shame.

Incidently, does anyone know how many Mustangs are currently airworthy?
 
BrouAviation
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:03 pm

Dangit! My favourite Mustang!  

http://www.flickr.com/photos/planebl...in/set-72157627159565538/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/planebl...in/set-72157627159565538/lightbox/

After 31 Jerries, 6 Japs and 65 years she is now forever gone. I'm really, very glad everyone involved is ok but I am really saddened to know that I saw the bird for the last time yesterday. It's almost unreal!

More pictures:
http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=511889
http://www.challoner.com/aviation/pix/2011/07/10/pix/IMG_5877.JPG
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
EGSUcrew
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 8):

Great images. Thanks for sharing. Still very sad to see though
 
HaveBlue
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:22 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 8):
More pictures:
http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.p...11889

Great photos of them just before and after!! Thanks for sharing.


Like everyone else I'm very glad the pilots came thru this alive, and also saddened to lose another great plane.
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KPDX
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:34 pm

View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
 
BrouAviation
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:49 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 11):
Video of the accident.

Ouch, I'm afraid the Frenchman with the Skyraider is going to need close to the full 2mil € coverage of standard liability insurance to pay for this..
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
HaveBlue
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:52 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 11):
Video of the accident

Am I alone in thinking the Skyraider pilot misjudged?
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
KPDX
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:56 am

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 13):
Am I alone in thinking the Skyraider pilot misjudged?

No. I don't like to point fingers but from the amateur eye, that definitely looked like mainly the fault of the Skyraider pilot. I can't imagine the horror that was experienced after he realized what had happened.
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spudsmac
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:37 am

Bring the Skyraider back as a CAS aircraft! It worked just as it was designed!
 
EGSUcrew
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:27 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 14):

To fly something like those aircraft in a show with this much following, both pilots would've been highly skilled with lots of experience. Not ruling out pilot error but I think its wrong to start accusing at this stage.

And KPDX, the Skyraider pilot stayed in the aircraft for a long time after he'd come to a stop, hard to imagine what he must've been feeling.
 
BrouAviation
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:31 am

Quoting EGSUcrew (Reply 16):
To fly something like those aircraft in a show with this much following, both pilots would've been highly skilled with lots of experience. Not ruling out pilot error but I think its wrong to start accusing at this stage.

Indeed. It looked like the Mustang didn't fly the expected sharp turn to downwind like all the other aircraft did, and the Skyraider pilot didn't expect that. The basic rules of this specific maneuver however state that you should never exceed the bank angle of your predecessor, which the Skyraider obviously did, plus he pulled a lot more G's than the Mustang in front of him..  
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
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spudh
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:09 pm

I'm absolutely no authority on this and I'm sure there are probably multitudes of reasons why the skyraider should not have collided in any case but it looks to me like the mustang was loosing speed and altitude even before it was hit.

The Mustang turned first from a position where they all had equal speed so you would have thought that it should have had horizontal seperation from the Skyraider unless it was slowing down to allow a rejoin.

I think the Mustang was in trouble before the collision.
 
BrouAviation
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:54 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 18):
I think the Mustang was in trouble before the collision.

Even if that was the case, the rule of never exceeding the bank angle of the predecessor is there just to prevent disaster in this case.

If you have a bank angle higher than your predecessor, and he slows down or does something unexpected for any reason, the only way you can get away from him is rolling even further until being inverted and pulling out. Not a good idea when flying a display at 200ft. When your bank angle is lower, all you have to do to be safe is give a little roll imput (in this case to the right) and pull your stick and you're clear..
Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
 
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spudh
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:07 pm

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 19):
If you have a bank angle higher than your predecessor, and he slows down or does something unexpected for any reason, the only way you can get away from him is rolling even further until being inverted and pulling out. Not a good idea when flying a display at 200ft. When your bank angle is lower, all you have to do to be safe is give a little roll imput (in this case to the right) and pull your stick and you're clear

Gotcha, thanks for the clear explanation.  
 
EGSUcrew
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:21 pm

Update on the Mustang pilot - reports suggest his 'chute blossomed at around 100' and he walked away with only a broken arm.

The aircraft is still in a field half a mile west of Duxford (totally destroyed) and the AAIB will investigate.
 
trigged
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:51 pm

Another good video of the collision: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14106730
 
 
BMI727
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:15 pm

Quoting spudsmac (Reply 15):
Bring the Skyraider back as a CAS aircraft! It worked just as it was designed!

An F-35 put through the same ordeal would likely be a very expensive bonfire. Progress...
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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spudh
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:48 pm

Maybe not, remember that Israeli F-15 that made it back minus a wing.

Not that I'm saying the F-35 is equal to an F-15 in any way  
 
EGSUcrew
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:56 pm

I was focussing mainly on the Mustang but the Skyraider did look like it was going down so with the aircraft in that condition, the pilot did amazingly well to land it.

Do they make aircraft like that nowadays...?  
 
rcair1
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:27 pm

What is interesting to me is that in both the videos and the stills after the collision - the P51 appears less damaged than the A-1. I'm really rather amazed the A-1 made it down, and visually it is not clear why the P51 pilot baled out.

If you watch the video closely you see the P-51 jinks rather hard after being hit, no a surprise, but it looks intact.
If you look at the first photo in the sequence on daily mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ils-mid-air-collision-airshow.html) both the horizontal and vertical stab's on the P-51 appear intact. Obviously there was damage that caused the pilot of the P-51 decide - time to go. Perhaps loss of control continuity....

On the other hand - when the A-1 hits, it quickly and rather violently rolls to the right - consistent with asymmetric lift - loss of lift on right wing. I'm surprised the pilot had enough roll authority, at that altitude, to overcome the asymmetry and land it.

What is certain is that both of these pilots demonstrated extreme skill. The P-51 pilot in recognizing a loss and managing to exit in time to successfully parachute (non-trivial in a non-ejection aircraft) and the A-1 pilot in regaining control and recognizing he _could_ get it down.

Really quite stunning.
rcair1
 
GPHOTO
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:49 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 27):
both the horizontal and vertical stab's on the P-51 appear intact. Obviously there was damage that caused the pilot of the P-51 decide - time to go. Perhaps loss of control continuity....

I wondered about this as well. The collision must have been quite substantial to take off the end of the Skyraiders wing. A close look at the photos of the P-51 seem to show that the tail is intact - I initially thought it had been taken clean off, but what you see falling away is the Skyraider's wingtip. However, in one of the photos it looks like there might be a gap in the rear fuselage after the airscoop fairing (underneath and just behind the Star on the fuselage) so it looks like the Skyraider took a bite out of the aft fuselage. Not sure where the control runs go on a P-51..... Of course it could be just the way the photograph looks - the P-51 is very small in all the images I have seen, none are clear enough to determine where and what the damage was.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 27):
What is certain is that both of these pilots demonstrated extreme skill. The P-51 pilot in recognizing a loss and managing to exit in time to successfully parachute (non-trivial in a non-ejection aircraft)

I am amazed he managed to get out safely from that situation and altitude - well done that man!

Best regards,

Jim
Erm, is this thing on?
 
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garpd
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:58 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 27):
What is interesting to me is that in both the videos and the stills after the collision - the P51 appears less damaged than the A-1. I'm really rather amazed the A-1 made it down, and visually it is not clear why the P51 pilot baled out.

The running theory on a historic aviation forum is the impact caused the fuselage to bend and control cables to jump from their pulleys and go slack or jam. This would make it too dangerous to attempt a landing in. So, best thing to do is point the plane away from danger and leave. Which is precisely what this pilot did.
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rcair1
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RE: P-51 Mustang And A-1 Skyraider: Mid-Air Collision

Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:35 pm

Quoting Garpd (Reply 29):
The running theory on a historic aviation forum is the impact caused the fuselage to bend and control cables to jump from their pulleys and go slack or jam.

That would certainly make sense. Still amazing the pilot could recognize that _and_ get out in time. Brain was running fast....
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