epten
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EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:27 am

Apparently, the EF2000 trashed the Sukhoi, which confirms my oppinion that in good old-fashioned WVR dogfight (guns+IR) it is currently the best fighter.

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=109428

Comments?
 
comorin
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:26 pm

Surprised that it prevailed in a WVR scenario, given the agility and Gee pulling ability of the MKI. I wonder how it stacks up against the Rafale? I'll scurry over to the subcontinental blogs (Baharat Rakshak et al) and see what they think.

This is really becoming like an Alien vs. Predator sort of thing.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:05 pm

Thats interesting - I'd have expected the Sukhoi to win in a knifefight because of the nozzles. I bet it was a hell of a fight.

I always got the impression the RAF did not have much expertise in the dogfighting skills area as we've not had a dogfighter worthy of the name for decades. Probably the Germans, Spaniards and Italians are better at it than us.

I guess our Typhoon guys learned the latest dogfighting tactics and skills from the USAF?
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autothrust
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:08 am

Quoting epten (Thread starter):
Apparently, the EF2000 trashed the Sukhoi, which confirms my oppinion that in good old-fashioned WVR dogfight (guns+IR) it is currently the best fighter.

No surpise  . Altough many people deny it or play down its capabilities, the EF has such a superior technology i would dare to say even the F-35 would struggle in BVR and in a dogfight even more.

The Typhoon has already beaten F-16's,F-18's,F-15's, Harrier's, Mirage's, why would the Su-30 be an exception?

With the IRIS-T it features the most powerful short-range air-to-air missile. Once the Typhoon (Tranche 3)will be equipped with CAESAR and two way datalink capable Meteor it will be a really dangerous adversary to any fighter.

[Edited 2011-07-26 05:15:53]
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ptrjong
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:33 am

As always, everyone focusses on technology and no one discusses pilot quality. It's maybe getting less crucial, but still.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):

So what good dogfighters did the Germans and Italians have?
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chuchoteur
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:40 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
I wonder how it stacks up against the Rafale?

From what I could gather there were a series of flights of the EF2000 against the Rafale during the UAE evaluation.
It was pretty inconclusive from what I heard (technically the Rafale won, but it could have gone either way if I remember correctly).

I think it would need more data for a decisive answer.
 
KPDX
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
As always, everyone focusses on technology and no one discusses pilot quality.

Exactly! But like A vs B, waving the manufacturer flag is always much more fun.  

You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXmDj3mFrXQ
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HaveBlue
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:11 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 6):
You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?

If it was an aggressor squadron, wouldn't that be an F-5 or maybe F-5F?
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:07 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 4):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):

So what good dogfighters did the Germans and Italians have?

Italians have flown the F16 and the Luftwaffe the Mig29 - both top end dogfighters.
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ptrjong
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:50 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ERItalians have flown the F16 and the Luftwaffe the Mig29Reply 8):

True.

That reminds me of something - when the West Germans got the MiG-29s and it looked for a moment that they might even like the aircraft, the MIiG-29 suddenly changed from a dangerous threat into an unbelievable piece of crap in Eurofighter advertising.

Likewise, the RAF chief would play up the Sukhoi and play down the Typhoon if he happened to be lobbying for a new fighter right now. It's all politics.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 6):
You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?

Lol.
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baroque
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:05 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 9):
That reminds me of something - when the West Germans got the MiG-29s and it looked for a moment that they might even like the aircraft, the MIiG-29 suddenly changed from a dangerous threat into an unbelievable piece of crap in Eurofighter advertising.

Likewise, the RAF chief would play up the Sukhoi and play down the Typhoon if he happened to be lobbying for a new fighter right now. It's all politics.

Nicely put. And try the reasons why Australia needs F-35s to defend against China attacking its own raw materials suppliers!!! That is quite funny too. Only thing, is it is very expensive.
 
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:54 pm

Baroque

Just out of historic interest, in 1939 the biggest trading partner of Germany was ... France. In 1941 Germany got the vast majority of it's oil from .... the Soviet Union. Laying hands on the supplies of a foreign nation is actually a pretty common reason for starting a war.
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ElpinDAB
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:49 am

I wonder if the Su-30 was used correctly...with its high performance capabilities. Drawn into a close-quarters dogfight, I could definitely see the EF-2000 winning, but if the Su-30 used its power and momentum to its advantage, I could see good tactics giving it the advantage. Not to say it is an inferior fighter at all. During WW2, when dogfighting tactics were really drawn, certain aircraft took an advantage because the pilots knew how to defend. I suppose this expands upon the "could be the pilot" questions. I'm sure the Su-30 can zoom climb better, among other maneuvers. Of course a close-turning dog-fight with no rules would favor the EF-2000, just as a Zero could probably out-maneuver a Corsair (extreme example, as I would consider this more of a P-51 vs Corsair than Zero vs Corsair, but same point).

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 8):

Italians have flown the F16 and the Luftwaffe the Mig29 - both top end dogfighters.

...and the EF-2000...along with the Germans.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 3):
The Typhoon has already beaten F-16's,F-18's,F-15's, Harrier's, Mirage's, why would the Su-30 be an exception?

I don't doubt it in the least, although I would love to see the commentary about this. I'm sure tactics were immediately rewritten afterwards, for each fighter. The EF-2000 is a very impressive fighter though, and one that I'd feel most confident taking into battle.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 5):
From what I could gather there were a series of flights of the EF2000 against the Rafale during the UAE evaluation.
It was pretty inconclusive from what I heard (technically the Rafale won, but it could have gone either way if I remember correctly).

I think it would need more data for a decisive answer.

I certainly wish there was more data. Any word on the new engine for the Rafale, btw? This would give the Rafale a nice advantage, although I know it's an emotional topic. Such a beautiful airframe though. I must say though, that given the choice of one aircraft, the French were forced to accept a mulit-role platform capable of ground-attack missions too, which would probably hinder dog-fighting capabilities.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 10):
And try the reasons why Australia needs F-35s to defend against China attacking its own raw materials suppliers!!!

And this could almost be a discussion on its own...F-35 vs other aircraft...will it live up to the standards of the aircraft it replaces? I know speed isn't everything, but just to be dramatic, Aussie fighters have been getting slower by the day...Mirage III Mach 2, F/A-18 Mach 1.8, F-35 Mach 1.65...? And how well will the single engine F-35 be able to patrol the outback and the other remote, tropical regions of Oz? But, a more generalized F-35 vs. other argument is more appropriate. Is it anything more than a stealthy, 5th generation excuse of a compromise for anything operating today? Will it be able to hold its own in a dog-fight based on its clean, no-hardpoint config for certain air-2-air missions?

F-35 bashing is in right now, and is there really any reason to support the plane? It's over budget, over due, and over priced.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 6):
You do know a T-38 Talon downed an F-22 Raptor... right?
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 7):
If it was an aggressor squadron, wouldn't that be an F-5 or maybe F-5F?

Basically the same plane. The question is, was it a blunder on the F-22 pilot's part, or a tactical advantage for the T-38/F-5 pilot? How was it done, is the key question, which I don't think will be answered accurately.
 
BarfBag
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:34 am

Quote from original article:

Quote:
Dalton was also all praise for the IAF for training its pilots to put any aircraft they fly to best use. "The issue is you are comparing technology and people. So, more often than not, technology can give you a great edge, a great lead. But actually it is always the people (behind the machines) who make the difference at the end of the day," he said.

Quote from NDTV defence correspondent Shiv Aroor's blog on the same exercise:
link

Quote:
While the RAF fielded some of their most-experienced and highly-qualified pilots, some of them being very senior performance evaluators in active service, the IAF pilots were a mix of 'young to middle-level pilots' from the 'Rhinos' squadron.

The IAF has never been comfortable with pushing the MKI to its stated abilities in such exercises. In several instances, it declined to have the MKI participate at all, or only flew on a restricted basis.

Further, it bears noting that the two sides had very different imperatives; the Typhoon - as a contender - was under examination, not the MKI. For the IAF, the pilot selection shows they wanted to see the EF2000 and simultaneously give their junior combat pilot cadre more training experience.

It doesn't make much sense to view this as a MKI vs EF2000 matter; had that been so for the IAF (and not what RAF or EADS would like to think), they'd have just invited Sukhoi to the bidding process to begin with.
 
ElpinDAB
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:54 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
The IAF has never been comfortable with pushing the MKI to its stated abilities in such exercises.

Then, the entire exercise would almost be in vain for the purpose of this conversation.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
Further, it bears noting that the two sides had very different imperatives; the Typhoon - as a contender - was under examination, not the MKI. For the IAF, the pilot selection shows they wanted to see the EF2000 and simultaneously give their junior combat pilot cadre more training experience.

Interesting. Then, Indian nationalism would have nothing to do with this combat exercise, only pure fighter pilot selection flying the best aircraft available. An experience RAF pilot in an EF-2000 has an advantage over a newb in an Su-30. That really isn't saying much, though. I'm not trying to troll...but only point out the obvious. I thank you for the point. So in fact, the EF-2000 isn't definitively better than the Su-30, and the pilots are, in fact, important, if your assertations are accurate.


btw, how does your Mirage 2000 compare against the Su-30?
 
ElpinDAB
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:12 am

Pure speculation on the match...

The Su-30 climbs to a higher altitude and tops out at a faster speed. This would equate to a better climb performance above FL400 at least, just to generalize. I would also assume that it zoom climbs better at all altitudes given its sheer mass.


The EF-2000 would be highly effective in dog-fights, given its extreme maneuverability. It can also accelerate very quickly, and that would also yield high climb rates to almost any altitude to about FL400, except from low airspeeds, where the EF-2000 would probably have an advantage in climb and acceleration.

The Su-30 is just huge for a fighter too. Its fighting dimensions must utilize more space than the EF-2000, which would give the EF-2000 an advantage, although the smallest fighter doesn't always win, and the EF-2000 isn't exactly a small fighter either...in fact, it's rather large, historically.
 
BarfBag
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:26 am

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 14):
Then, the entire exercise would almost be in vain for the purpose of this conversation.

It's a British/RAF sourced article, with their point of view. I simply pointed out that the pilot profiles on either side just underscore the statement made by one of the RAF personnel. The RAF sent their best and were out to demonstrate the capabilities of a plane they're trying to sell. For GoI and IAF, there was no similar compulsion, and they demonstrated it by picking the pilots accordingly, instead of doing something like have the entire TACDE over to participate, which sounds like what the RAF did.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 14):
Then, Indian nationalism would have nothing to do with this combat exercise,

Why ? Emotional nationalism is overrated. It's much more beneficial to quietly learn about the other side, when they're themselves inclined to go out of their way to put their best foot forward in order to make a sale.

For the IAF, the MKI occupies a different role from what they use the M2K or intend the MRCA choice for. As I said, if they saw the MKI as comparable to the MRCA contenders, they'd just have invited Sukhoi, instead of both put out the MRCA tender and continuously ramp up the MKI numbers.
 
ElpinDAB
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:55 am

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt220/varun22/AIR_SU-30MKI_Eurofighter_Top_ID-200.jpg

http://www.patricksaviation.com/files/photos/full/23765_17976.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__A2VG2LiIPk/TNbjMus1WbI/AAAAAAAAASM/GAEEO2XtyDE/s1600/typhoon-e-su-30mkic.jpg

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Tornado-F3_Eurofighter_SU-30MKI_Top_lg.jpg

Enjoy!
 
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autothrust
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:53 am

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 14):
An experience RAF pilot in an EF-2000 has an advantage over a newb in an Su-30. That really isn't saying much, though. I'm not trying to troll...but only point out the obvious. I thank you for the point. So in fact, the EF-2000 isn't definitively better than the Su-30, and the pilots are, in fact, important, if your assertations are accurate.

Apart from the much more modern technology the point where the Typhoon betters almost any fighter is the human machine interface.
The workload for the pilots in a Typhoon is much much lower then surely most other combat aircraft. This gives a even less experienced pilots an huge advantage.

The Typhoon Sensor Fusion is fully integrated and automated. With the DVI(Voice+HOTAS) the pilot can give over 250 aural commands to the aircraft.
The Defensive Aids Sub-System monitors and responds automatically to the outside world. It provides the pilot with an all-round prioritised assessment of Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface threats. It can respond to single or multiple threats.

So the Typhoon is definitively better then the Su-30. It can climb faster(Su-30 230m/sec Typhoon 315m/sec), can sustain 10g over infinite periods, rollrates over 260°/sec can do 9g turns while supersonic.
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:29 pm

I'm not the only one sat here thinking this I'm sure.

Damn - the Sukhoi is absolutely stunningly gorgeous. Got to be one of best looking planes ever made, surely. Talk about sexy.
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baroque
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 11):
Baroque

Just out of historic interest, in 1939 the biggest trading partner of Germany was ... France. In 1941 Germany got the vast majority of it's oil from .... the Soviet Union. Laying hands on the supplies of a foreign nation is actually a pretty common reason for starting a war.

As best I can recall that rather ended in tears, for Germany in particular. Another example was Japan and the GEC-OZ and that turned out rather badly for, er guess what Japan. Got any examples that might encourage China to do the same. Only one I can think of is Israel collecting pro tem a number of water catchment areas. But that one has not ended - yet! Anyways still key differences, China OWNS a goodly part of these assets ALREADY! So they are invading themselves in this case.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
And how well will the single engine F-35 be able to patrol the outback and the other remote, tropical regions of Oz? But, a more generalized F-35 vs. other argument is more appropriate. Is it anything more than a stealthy, 5th generation excuse of a compromise for anything operating today? Will it be able to hold its own in a dog-fight based on its clean, no-hardpoint config for certain air-2-air missions?

F-35 bashing is in right now, and is there really any reason to support the plane? It's over budget, over due, and over priced.

Nicely put questions, I just wish our lot ever started to answer any of them. Someone was on our radio today explaining how the F-111 put the fear of god into the Indonesians that Jakarta would be bombed in 1998 over E Timor. What total rubbish. Some in Indonesia would have welcomed that as it would have meant instant victory in E Timor. Militaristic folk do come up with some amazing non sequiturs. Even 20 tonnes of bombs on Jakarta would hardly be noticed, the place is enormous and what to hit? That is assuming the F-111 really could get there which is not a foregone conclusion. They might have been a bit more worried about Harpoons from subs, but not sure if the Collins were carrying them then, probably were.
 
comorin
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 17):

Thanks for the great pics! That first shot is telling, showing the difference in size between the two aircraft.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
Emotional nationalism is overrated. It's much more beneficial to quietly learn about the other side,

Hey BarfBag, gone through a life-changing experience recently? 
 
chuchoteur
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:33 pm

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
I certainly wish there was more data. Any word on the new engine for the Rafale, btw?

... don't know about the new engine, but given the amount of new standards for the current engine that SNECMA are pumping out (to improve dispatch reliability) I wouldn't be surprised if it was sooner rather than later  
Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
French were forced to accept a mulit-role platform capable of ground-attack missions too, which would probably hinder dog-fighting capabilities.

... well... it dogfights well, it's unlikely to end up against an F22 (we hope) and it certainly handles ground attack better than the aforementioned aircraft  

To be fair the Rafale is a good multirole aircraft, has a naval version in its lineup and deserves to do better in the export markets...
 
L-188
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:15 pm

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
Basically the same plane. The question is, was it a blunder on the F-22 pilot's part, or a tactical advantage for the T-38/F-5 pilot? How was it done, is the key question, which I don't think will be answered accurately.

Goes right back to the Red Baron's infamous WWI quote, "It's not the crate but the man in the crate"
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epten
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:02 am

I am pretty certain that a retarded monkey in a Typhoon will easily shoot down an combat experienced test-piloting ace in MiG-29 9.12A.

Technology isn't everything, but certainly accounts to something.
 
FoxTwo
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:30 pm

Quoting epten (Reply 24):

I am pretty certain that a retarded monkey in a Typhoon will easily shoot down an combat experienced test-piloting ace in MiG-29 9.12A.

Technology isn't everything, but certainly accounts to something.

Exactly. Any fighter pilot will tell you it comes down a bit of luck nowadays. The machine - does improve your advantage but does not always win the fight.
F2
 
Devilfish
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 10):
Likewise, the RAF chief would play up the Sukhoi and play down the Typhoon if he happened to be lobbying for a new fighter right now. It's all politics.

Nicely put. And try the reasons why Australia needs F-35s to defend against China attacking its own raw materials suppliers!!!

Well, let's try one the Russian AF chief proffers.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...u-35s-inferior-to-usaf-jets-s.html

Quote:
"1. The Su-35S avionics and integrated defence system is inferior to 'American fighters of the same type', Zelin said. Depending on how you interpret that phrase, Zelin is either implicitly endorsing Boeing's F-15 and F/A-18E/F, or perhaps Lockheed Martin's F-35 and F-22."


Quoting Baroque (Reply 10):
That is quite funny too. Only thing, is it is very expensive.

Maybe Oz prefers the same "commitment" being offered to India?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:04 pm

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 22):
... well... it dogfights well, it's unlikely to end up against an F22 (we hope) and it certainly handles ground attack better than the aforementioned aircraft

The F-22 Has ground attack capability and is probably more advanced than the ground attack of the euro-fighter (not knocking it becuase its a good aircraft) but just stating the F-22's ground attack is underscored because of the money dumped in the F-35 (notice I said dumped) because unlike some of the above posters I am not sold on the F-35 becoming the US's premier fighter to me we are settling for second best but the way this administration is going they seem to be happy with that and its not given the recognition it deserves.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:57 am

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
The F-22 Has ground attack capability and is probably more advanced than the ground attack of the euro-fighter

Well the Rafale is more suited in the ground attack role than either the EF2000 Eurofighter (1st campaign in that role being Libya, whereas the Rafale has combat experience in Afghanistan that has helped build up capability) or the F22 (yet to be used in anger in the ground attack role).

The Rafale has the benefit of external hardpoints that the F22 lacks, so purely on this basis is better for that mission  

... not saying that the F22 is a bad aircraft, just that as of yet it has not had the opportunity to show what it can do.
 
rwessel
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:47 am

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 28):
The Rafale has the benefit of external hardpoints that the F22 lacks, so purely on this basis

The F-22 has four external 5000lb hardpoints which can carry fuel tanks or weapons. I know they can carry AIM-9s and AIM-120s on the outer hardpoints, and fuel tanks on the inners, but I don't know what other weapons/combinations are possible/approved. Obviously using the external hardpoints impacts stealth.
 
bilgerat
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:37 am

A few points:

Quote:
I always got the impression the RAF did not have much expertise in the dogfighting skills area as we've not had a dogfighter worthy of the name for decades. Probably the Germans, Spaniards and Italians are better at it than us.

That's not true. The RAF has always trained for the full gamut of air combat. It didn't stop training its pilots air combat manoeuvring just because it flew the Phantom and Tornado.

Quote:
During WW2, when dogfighting tactics were really drawn

Actually the rules of dogfighting were written during WW1 and remain true to this day:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke

Quote:
The IAF has never been comfortable with pushing the MKI to its stated abilities in such exercises. In several instances, it declined to have the MKI participate at all, or only flew on a restricted basis.

And why would it do so? Surely it would be most advantageous for the IAF to have everyone aware of just how awesome the MKI is... deterrant anyone?

Or perhaps maybe the MKI isn't all that and the IAF is trying to preserve its (unproven) reputation.

Quote:
The RAF sent their best and were out to demonstrate the capabilities of a plane they're trying to sell. For GoI and IAF, there was no similar compulsion, and they demonstrated it by picking the pilots accordingly, instead of doing something like have the entire TACDE over to participate, which sounds like what the RAF did.

If the IAF wished to measure it's best fighter against a world class opposition why on Earth would they put green pilots in the cockpit? Such a scenario would provide absolutely no value for the IAF. It simply doesn't make any sense - unless you are just grasping at straws to preserve your national pride. Surely they would put their most experienced pilots in the Su-30MKI and then use the lessons learned fighting the Typhoons to *teach* the rest of their pilots

Also, I think you'll find the RAF's best Typhoon crews are currently based in Italy flying real combat missions.

Finally, is it any surprise that the Typhoon apparently bettered the Su-30MKI? The Typhoon was designed and developed to beat advanced Su-27 derivatives!
 
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autothrust
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:48 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
The F-22 Has ground attack capability and is probably more advanced than the ground attack of the euro-fighter

Probably? Its based on what? Though the Typhoon is limited in the use of ground attack weapons it has been very successfull in ground attack missions.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 28):
Well the Rafale is more suited in the ground attack role than either the EF2000 Eurofighter

  Couldn't agree more. However the great ground attack capabilities are also the Rafale's "weakness" is some compromises in the air to air role.
But probably the most overall suited multirole-fighter in the world.

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 30):
Finally, is it any surprise that the Typhoon apparently bettered the Su-30MKI? The Typhoon was designed and developed to beat advanced Su-27 derivatives!

  Correct! Finally someone got it!
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bilgerat
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:28 pm

Quote:
Probably? Its based on what?

It's the F-22! It's American! That alone makes it better than anything else. Did you honestly expect a thread discussing the Typhoon to last very long before someone came in to say the F-22 is better?

(Just don't mention the OBOGS   )

It's also worth adding the Typhoon is currently flying combat sorties over Libya and has dropped A-G ordnance against live targets - whilst the un-blooded F-22 is still sitting in its hangars subject to serious restrictions pending the solution to the OBOGS problems... oops I mentioned the F-22 OBOGS!

Quote:
Couldn't agree more. However the great ground attack capabilities are also the Rafale's "weakness" is some compromises in the air to air role.
But probably the most overall suited multirole-fighter in the world.

It's interesting to note that the French have been integrating A-G capability with the Rafale much faster than the Typhoon partner nations who have this far concentrated on the A-A capabilities - indicative perhaps of the priorities placed on the respective capabilities by the air arms involved.

Quote:
Correct! Finally someone got it!

Well it's not a terribly difficult conclusion to come to! Throughout the Typhoon's development the baseline threat they were using were advanced Su-27 derivatives. As much as I like the Flanker and think it's a hugely impressive and good looking aircraft - it's still a 1970's airframe no matter how many gadgets and gizmos you stick on it like TV and a PESA radar.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 29):
The F-22 has four external 5000lb hardpoints which can carry fuel tanks or weapons. I know they can carry AIM-9s and AIM-120s on the outer hardpoints, and fuel tanks on the inners, but I don't know what other weapons/combinations are possible/approved. Obviously using the external hardpoints impacts stealth.

thanks for the correction. As far as I'm aware they've never put air to ground ordnance on those external hardpoints yet, but that doesn't mean they won't in the future!

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 32):
It's interesting to note that the French have been integrating A-G capability with the Rafale much faster than the Typhoon partner nations who have this far concentrated on the A-A capabilities - indicative perhaps of the priorities placed on the respective capabilities by the air arms involved.

Well, not sure the speed at which the french have integrated A-G capability vs the EF2000 is indicative. The way I see it it's perhaps more indicative that on the Eurofighter program the decision loops with all the partner nations are maybe longer than on the Rafale program...

The F22 development is hampered perhaps by the big availability of F16 aircraft (amongst others) that are readily available for the G-A role and are quite possibly a whole lot cheaper to operate at the moment...
 
bilgerat
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:01 pm

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 33):
Well, not sure the speed at which the french have integrated A-G capability vs the EF2000 is indicative. The way I see it it's perhaps more indicative that on the Eurofighter program the decision loops with all the partner nations are maybe longer than on the Rafale program...

Perhaps you're right, but then again there is nothing to stop the individual partner nations forging ahead with their own integration of A-G capabilities as the UK has done.

Look at it this way - the UK, Germany and Italy were all in quite serious need of a new A-A type to replace what was already in service. The need for a new A-G type was less urgent. In fact it is the UK who has been the strongest voice in adding to the Typhoon's A-G capabilities. I think the RAF in particular is feeling the loss of the Jaguar in 2006 - a type which although simpler and less capable overall than the Tornado was very reliable and economical to operate. Many observers have commented it would have been perfect for what the RAF is currently doing in Afghanistan and Libya.

I think perhaps the reverse was true with the French - who had a pretty solid A-A type in the form of the Mirage 2000 already in service, but when you look at the Aeronavale they really needed something to replace the old Super Etendards in the A-G role.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 33):
The F22 development is hampered perhaps by the big availability of F16 aircraft (amongst others) that are readily available for the G-A role and are quite possibly a whole lot cheaper to operate at the moment...

I'd say the biggest problem the F-22 has - other than it's enormous price tag - is the F-35. I think much of the F-22's potential was stifled by the knowledge that a similarly capable but much cheaper (in theory at least!) type was just a few years further down the road. Remember when the F-15 was developed the mantra was "Not a pound for air to ground" yet we eventually saw a strike version in the form of the F-15E. Perhaps one day we might see something similar with the F-22.
 
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autothrust
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 32):
It's the F-22! It's American! That alone makes it better than anything else. Did you honestly expect a thread discussing the Typhoon to last very long before someone came in to say the F-22 is better?

It's also worth adding the Typhoon is currently flying combat sorties over Libya and has dropped A-G ordnance against live targets - whilst the un-blooded F-22 is still sitting in its hangars subject to serious restrictions pending the solution to the OBOGS problems... oops I mentioned the F-22 OBOGS!

Oh you are right how could i expect such a thing?? It doesn't matter how much success the Typhoon will ever achieve or how many missions in war zones are accomplished , it will never better any other fighter at anything. Just as simple as that. How can you dare to mention OBOGS?

*cough* F-22 Maintenance Nightmare/ POGO Mission capable rate to low ...

  

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 32):
It's interesting to note that the French have been integrating A-G capability with the Rafale much faster than the Typhoon partner nations who have this far concentrated on the A-A capabilities - indicative perhaps of the priorities placed on the respective capabilities by the air arms involved.

   

The Rafale is clearly optimised in the A-G role, while the Typhoon on the A-A role.

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 32):
Well it's not a terribly difficult conclusion to come to! Throughout the Typhoon's development the baseline threat they were using were advanced Su-27 derivatives. As much as I like the Flanker and think it's a hugely impressive and good looking aircraft - it's still a 1970's airframe no matter how many gadgets and gizmos you stick on it like TV and a PESA radar.

You wouldn't believe how difficult it is for some people, here on a.net to come to such a conclusion even accept it!

I for my part love the SU-27, Migs-29 etc.. too. They are the most beatiful figthers and impressive machines.Else i couldn't agree more.    
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ThePointblank
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:42 am

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 32):

It's the F-22! It's American! That alone makes it better than anything else. Did you honestly expect a thread discussing the Typhoon to last very long before someone came in to say the F-22 is better?

(Just don't mention the OBOGS )

It's also worth adding the Typhoon is currently flying combat sorties over Libya and has dropped A-G ordnance against live targets - whilst the un-blooded F-22 is still sitting in its hangars subject to serious restrictions pending the solution to the OBOGS problems... oops I mentioned the F-22 OBOGS!

The main issue is that F-22 is not equipped with Link-16 datalink transmission capabilities; it has the ability to receive, but not the ability to transmit. Plans to have Link-16 capability fully integrated was cancelled due to costs.
 
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:24 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 36):
it has the ability to receive, but not the ability to transmit. Plans to have Link-16 capability fully integrated was cancelled due to costs.

According to wiki, it's because transmitting would give away its position?
 
chuchoteur
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:06 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 35):
The Rafale is clearly optimised in the A-G role, while the Typhoon on the A-A role.

... a bit of a shortcut there really... all the Rafale vs EF2000 air-to-air sorties that I've witnessed (a few) it has always been a fairly even match. At equivalent piloting skills the EF2000 has a slight edge close in, but otherwise the guys who won where those that had the most air to air experience.

The planes are getting to be so capable that the differentiator is the pilot really.
 
bilgerat
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:54 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 35):
You wouldn't believe how difficult it is for some people, here on a.net to come to such a conclusion even accept it!

The simple fact is discussions like this are very heavily coloured by nationalistic sentiment.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 35):

I for my part love the SU-27, Migs-29 etc.. too. They are the most beatiful figthers and impressive machines.Else i couldn't agree more.

As an aviation enthusiast I love the Flanker and Fulcrum, hugely impressive aircraft. I do think their development was stifled by the end of the Cold War and their potential went untapped for many years. Now it seems with the Flanker at least it's finally being developed into a more capable aircraft, but it's come 20 years too late now the West has entirely new types designed specifically to beat advanced Flankers.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 36):
The main issue is that F-22 is not equipped with Link-16 datalink transmission capabilities; it has the ability to receive, but not the ability to transmit. Plans to have Link-16 capability fully integrated was cancelled due to costs.

Indeed, a very strange decision not to give the F-22 full Link-16 capability. Surely given how much the F-22 has cost they might as well spend the extra money and fully integrate Link-16 so it can talk to other aircraft?

It's also slightly puzzling why they are waiting so long to put the AIM-9X on the F-22, and the "technical issues" around giving it a helmet mounted sight. Rather strange when every other fighter worth it's salt these days has the latest generation short range IR missiles and HMS.

Quoting comorin (Reply 37):
According to wiki, it's because transmitting would give away its position?

I don't buy that for a minute. By that logic they should remove the radar from the F-22 because that can give its position away as well!

In a situation that requires maximum stealth they can just stop transmitting on the Link-16, and then restore it in scenarios when the maximum stealth is no longer required!

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 38):
The planes are getting to be so capable that the differentiator is the pilot really.

As has always been the case  

[Edited 2011-08-13 02:58:31]
 
KPDX
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 39):
The simple fact is discussions like this are very heavily coloured by nationalistic sentiment.

Indeed.... see replies 34 and 35.


  
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bilgerat
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:21 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 40):
Indeed.... see replies 34 and 35.

Care to elaborate? In particular what nationalistic sentiment was present in reply 34?
 
HaveBlue
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:12 pm

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 41):
Care to elaborate? In particular what nationalistic sentiment was present in reply 34?

I agree, reply 34 seemed pretty straightforward and factual. Maybe not so much with reply 35.
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baroque
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 42):
I agree, reply 34 seemed pretty straightforward and factual. Maybe not so much with reply 35.

Arguably not, however, straight nationalistic. Rather it was more pointing out the existence of nationalist bias in "assessments" as peddling that particular sin.
 
KPDX
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:22 pm

Sorry, I meant reply 32.. I was joking anyways. No need to take it so seriously.  
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bilgerat
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:50 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 44):
Sorry, I meant reply 32.. I was joking anyways. No need to take it so seriously.

No bother. I was just taking a jab at the F-22 cheerleaders   You have to admit though, the OBOGS problem would be embarassing for any fighter, let alone world beating, game changing, uber invincible F-22  

Not to say the Typhoon isn't having problems thanks to the politicians leaving the RAF short of airframes and spare parts meaning aircraft are coming off the production line and immediately being cannibalised to sustain others... and of course the issue of some Typhoon pilots not getting enough hours on the type.

It's also not certain at the moment if the Typhoon will receive the full range of proposed upgrades, such as the AESA radar and TV engines. It would be a huge shame if it didn't...

Especially so remembering 50 years ago the RAF had a potentially world beating fighter which never got the political support it deserved and never achieved its full potential.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:35 pm

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 45):
Especially so remembering 50 years ago the RAF had a potentially world beating fighter which never got the political support it deserved and never achieved its full potential.

Which one? the TSR2?
 

Actually these days I'm less worried about what type of aircraft the RAF operates, and more worried about how many they are planning to get. There's been a lot of shrinking going on...
 
bilgerat
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:11 am

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 46):

Which one? the TSR2?

The Lightning. It managed to survive Duncan Sandys' infamous defence white paper and went on to serve for almost 30 years with the RAF - but throughout that time it was always regarded as nothing more than an interim type. Thus it was never developed to its full potential and it was never marketed aggressively enough to export customers...

...unlike its contemporaries - the F-104, Mirage III and MiG-21 - among which the Lightning had the best performance.

[Edited 2011-08-14 00:14:02]
 
epten
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:34 am

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 12):
I'm sure the Su-30 can zoom climb better, among other maneuvers.

Not really. EF-2000 has considerably better t/w ratio and climbs faster (230 m/s vs 300+ m/s, according to Wikipedia).

EF-2000 has better sustained turn rate, almost 10.000 ft higher ceiling, can supercruse, has much lower wing loading (very important IMHO!), more efficient engines, sensor fusion, smaller RCS and - on paper - superior short-range missile... among other things. Everything you need to pretty much dominate in dogfight.
 
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RE: EF2000 Vs Su-30MKI

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:12 am

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 47):
...unlike its contemporaries - the F-104, Mirage III and MiG-21 - among which the Lightning had the best performance.

Disagree, The Saab Draken could do most of what a Lighting chould do but with only one Avon.
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