comorin
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SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:26 am

SpaceX announces November launch date of Dragon Capsule on F9 lifter to rendezvous with ISS:

http://www.spacex.com/updates.php

That's really exciting, having the private sector involved! This could be an alternative to Soyuz if all goes well, as the dragon capsule is also designed for crew.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:38 pm

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):

SpaceX is really progressing well. Still, there must be more flights before I would put humans in it, so lets see what the upcoming test flights will bring.
 
connies4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:40 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
SpaceX is really progressing well. Still, there must be more flights before I would put humans in it, so lets see what the upcoming test flights will bring.

Yes they are but a long way to go before it carries a crew. My personal feeling is that the Boeing CST-100 will beat SpaceX at least in terms of carrying crew to the ISS. Boeing are targetting 2014 for an initial piloted mission.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
comorin
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:46 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
Yes they are but a long way to go before it carries a crew. My personal feeling is that the Boeing CST-100 will beat SpaceX at least in terms of carrying crew to the ISS. Boeing are targetting 2014 for an initial piloted mission.

How does this work? Will the crew be NASA or Boeing/SpaceX employees?
 
connies4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 3):
How does this work? Will the crew be NASA or Boeing/SpaceX employees?

Initial flights will be piloted by Boeing pilots. Selection process has already started. My bad: 2015, not 2014, for test flights to ISS.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...08/04/awx_08_04_2011_p0-355471.xml
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GDB
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:06 pm

While Boeing has the established industrial muscle, I'd still not bet against SpaceX to be first with a crew.
They'll claim that they don't have the layers of corporate bureaucracy, we shall see.
 
fvtu134
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:15 am

Don't forget that SpaceX is eating into Boeing (through ULA) business and with the addition of F9 Heavy that will only make the field more competitive. ULA will have to cut margins to compete with the (on paper) better economies of F9 launches.
I still believe SpaceX will be the more agile and creative company with Boeing having to copycat in certain cases. I highly doubt Boeing would have come up with this if SpaceX hadn't pushed forward with their ambitions for manned flight.

Just my 2cents of course.

FVTu134
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JoeCanuck
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:12 am

I think it's fantastic to have the private sector on the leading edge of space science. The more alternatives available for manned space operations, the less the chance that problems with one group can scuttle manned operations.

Also, the more seats available to space, the faster things can get built and the more resources available for potential moon shots...somewhere man should never have left.
What the...?
 
GDB
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:34 pm

I would question the contention that we know the Moon, while our knowledge of our satellite - and also of the early Solar System and Earth - increased exponentially with Apollo, even the later J missions could explore and sample a small area around the landing site for a limited time, just 6 sites were explored.
Lack of funds, then lack of rockets as well as the limitations of the Apollo system, meant that some notable sites of scientific interest were never reached.

The poles - since Apollo an area of renewed interest, the far side - there could be significant differences with the near side as recent studies suggest, Tycho in the Southern Highlands.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:54 pm

Wait and see.

I think Roscosmos and Soyuz are the best. Think reliability, efficiency and all these years of experience and success.

Go Roscosmos!

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:31 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):

I think Roscosmos and Soyuz are the best. Think reliability, efficiency and all these years of experience and success.

That may be the first time I've heard reliability, success and Soyuz in the same mentioning. It's an old design. Yes it still works, but honestly, the SpaceX Falcon 9 is a great rocket, which will likely hurt the heck out of ULA, Boeing and others in the business, not to mention the Soviets (err, Russians)

-DiamondFlyer
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Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:23 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 7):
I think it's fantastic to have the private sector on the leading edge of space science.
Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
That's really exciting, having the private sector involved!

SpaceX is using NASA money to develop Dragon/F9 (and before that DARPA money for Falcon 1). So how are they any different from ULA? The answer is they aren't. I'm sick of hearing "the private sector is now involved in spaceflight" when it has been involved from the very beginning.

Anyways, good luck to SpaceX on this mission. Yet another aerospace contractor is a good thing.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  
 
Flighty
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 11):
I'm sick of hearing "the private sector is now involved in spaceflight" when it has been involved from the very beginning

Of course, but the balance of power is shifting now. The government alone is not making the big design and policy decisions anymore. It makes space just a high tech industry that can function on its own. Your point that SpaceX receives a bit of govt funding is well taken. But our govt ought to do that even more often, encouraging new companies (not just Boeing and its merged up subsidiaries, and Lockheed). It is competition... not the private-ness of the organization... that is new here. Multiple bidders... a true connection with enterprise. Not just hundred year old companies but new enterprise. Then you know it's not all dead wood.
 
zanl188
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:00 pm

In related news...

Orbitals 1st spacecrafts for NASAs ISS resupply contract arives at Wallops Island on wednesday....

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2011/aug/HQ_M11-173_Cygnus.html


http://www.orbital.com/CargoResupplyServices/
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Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):

Point taken, but the age of the company doesn't indicate how innovative they are. Even the 100 year olds are innovative. There's a reason afterall that they made it to 100 years.

I am all for SpaceX, but let's not turn them into Apple with a bizarre cult mentality. After all, their launch systems are really just the same concepts that we've been using before. They're more evolutionary than revolutionary. Heck they're even years behind schedule when you look at the original COTS contract, and probably overbudget as well.

But they are still a company worth supporting, as with all the others. A vibrant aerospace industry with good attention to R & D is part of the formula that makes this country great. And I'm not trying to take any swings at them.



Combining the last two flights is a notable goal. It carries a bit more risk as the original second flight called for testing of maneuvering and breakaway procedures alone. But in this case, if the spacecraft sails through those tests, then why not dock in the same flight? It'll certainly save on schedule. And it gets NASA a new crew capsule sooner.

For all the bleating that the end of the shuttle program means the end of American manned spaceflight, it's amazing that those same loons don't realize that with Dragon, CST-100, and the Orion/MPCV we not only will have manned spaceflight, but we'll be the first nation with the beginnings of a comprehensive FLEET of spacecraft fulfilling a variety of roles from LEO to Mars exploration. Our aerospace community is developing the tools that will give us unprecedented flexibility in the coming years, way beyond having just Apollo, or just STS, or just Soyuz.

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kalvado
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:59 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 14):
it's amazing that those same loons don't realize that with Dragon, CST-100, and the Orion/MPCV we not only will have manned spaceflight, but we'll be the first nation with the beginnings of a comprehensive FLEET of spacecraft fulfilling a variety of roles from LEO to Mars exploration. Our aerospace community is developing the tools that will give us unprecedented flexibility in the coming years, way beyond having just Apollo, or just STS, or just Soyuz.

What about Soyuz and Buran co-existing in USSR for a while?
I'm afraid situation would end up with chasing to rabbits. Time will tell, but is there really enough demand to justify multiple programs?
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting kalvado (Reply 15):
What about Soyuz and Buran co-existing in USSR for a while?

Buran never carried any Cosmonauts into space. It never even operated beyond its first test flight.

Quoting kalvado (Reply 15):
I'm afraid situation would end up with chasing to rabbits. Time will tell, but is there really enough demand to justify multiple programs?

Time will tell, but we do have demand for a cheap semi-reusable ISS taxi and something beefier for missions beyond LEO.

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nomadd22
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting kalvado (Reply 15):
I'm afraid situation would end up with chasing to rabbits. Time will tell, but is there really enough demand to justify multiple programs?

There's usually not much demand for a service that doesn't exist. That's what makes Elon Musk different than Boeing or Lockheed. He's putting his money into something not to squeeze the maximum profit from the least work, but to create the demand in the first place. he's trying to be the Henry Ford to the bankers Cadillac.
It's a pretty good bet that if he can launch for $100 million what others are charging $200 million for, the demand will be there. And if the Falcon Heavy pans out, ULA and Ariane will be out of business.

(In the voice of Ray Liotta...."Launch it and they will come")
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eksath
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 14):
For all the bleating that the end of the shuttle program means the end of American manned spaceflight, it's amazing that those same loons don't realize that with Dragon, CST-100, and the Orion/MPCV we not only will have manned spaceflight, but we'll be the first nation with the beginnings of a comprehensive FLEET of spacecraft fulfilling a variety of roles from LEO to Mars exploration. Our aerospace community is developing the tools that will give us unprecedented flexibility in the coming years, way beyond having just Apollo, or just STS, or just Soyuz.

Well said and spot on!

Too bad the mass media and the general public have not got pass the planned retirement of the STS program to the points you mention.

[Edited 2011-08-20 19:08:24]
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zanl188
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:48 pm

Quoting eksath (Reply 18):
Well said and spot on!

Too bad the mass media and the general public have not got pass the planned retirement of the STS program to the points you mention.

Personally I wouldn't cheer too loudly. It seems likely to me that at least one and perhaps two of the spacecraft being developed for commercial crew will not fly. I can't explain why however I feel Boeing and SpaceX will get something off the ground, I'm not so confident regarding Sierra Nevada & Blue Origin.

I hope I'm wrong.....
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eksath
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:26 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 19):
Personally I wouldn't cheer too loudly. It seems likely to me that at least one and perhaps two of the spacecraft being developed for commercial crew will not fly.

They all do not need to fly for success and most likely they will not. The mere fact that there are credible contenders ensures the competition remains competitive. May the best fly and evolve PERIOD!
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zanl188
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting eksath (Reply 20):
They all do not need to fly for success and most likely they will not. The mere fact that there are credible contenders ensures the competition remains competitive. May the best fly and evolve PERIOD!

It does put a hole in B4evers thought of a FLEET of spacecraft however. And if Boeing & SpaceX do not think of the others as credible then they don't represent much in the way of competition.

It's going to be fun to watch regardless...
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MadameConcorde
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:15 pm

How does SpaceX finance themselves? Do they get money from the US government for their research and development to carry American astronauts to the ISS (or other destinations) in the future or if not, who are their principal investors?

The banking sector seems to be in a bit of trouble so I have no idea where their financing comes from.

 

Takes quite a bit of money to run a Space program especially being a newbie/start-up..
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 21):
It does put a hole in B4evers thought of a FLEET of spacecraft however. And if Boeing & SpaceX do not think of the others as credible then they don't represent much in the way of competition.

What hole? You alone brought up Blue Origin. I omitted them for a reason.

As eksath says, we now have credible contenders. Should they be successful, it will be a major boon to A & D.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
How does SpaceX finance themselves?

Elon Musk made billions off of PayPal (as one of the co-founders), and started SpaceX up around '02. Financials are not disclosed, however DARPA was involved in Falcon 1 development and likely put up a good chuck of change for that rocket. NASA money likely makes up the vast majority of funding for Dragon/F9 development. There are a number of entities, both private and government that have orders for launches.

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zanl188
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 23):
What hole? You alone brought up Blue Origin. I omitted them for a reason.

Unfortunately you did not explain your reason for omitting Blue Origin, it would have been enlightening if you had.
Seeing as how Blue Origin is a party to the commercial crew contract, of which you were speaking, I can only assume that you erred.

No matter. I agree with the gist of your original statement though I would disagree with the name calling. It's not necessary.

IMHO NASA will be doing well if 2 of the 4 participants actually get a spacecraft flying & if NASA gets an Orion beyond LEO.
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Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:12 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 24):
Unfortunately you did not explain your reason for omitting Blue Origin, it would have been enlightening if you had.

Blue Origin tends to keep things close to the vest. A little too close frankly. I'm not sure what to make of them, but unfortunately I have a hard time believing them. That was my reason. They could very well prove successful beyond their competitors. But they're too mysterious for my taste.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 24):
No matter. I agree with the gist of your original statement though I would disagree with the name calling. It's not necessary.

Not sure of what name calling specifically you are referring to, but I do apologize if I did come off as hostile, which I do tend to see in my posts.  
Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 24):
IMHO NASA will be doing well if 2 of the 4 participants actually get a spacecraft flying & if NASA gets an Orion beyond LEO.

  

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gigneil
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 11):
SpaceX is using NASA money to develop Dragon/F9

Practically none, considering what they blew out their asses on Ares.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):

How does SpaceX finance themselves? Do they get money from the US government for their research and development to carry American astronauts to the ISS (or other destinations) in the future or if not, who are their principal investors?

Privately. They're privately owned and their CEO is the largest investor.

They get peanuts from the government.

NS
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:36 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 26):
Practically none, considering what they blew out their asses on Ares.

You mean the intentionally underfunded Ares?

It still does not change where the money for Dragon/F9 came from.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 26):
Privately. They're privately owned and their CEO is the largest investor.

They get peanuts from the government.

DARPA funding and COTS funding is hardly "peanuts".

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JoeCanuck
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:51 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 11):
I'm sick of hearing "the private sector is now involved in spaceflight" when it has been involved from the very beginning.

Why get your shorts in a knot about semantics? The difference is SpaceX started, specifically, as a rocket business without government contracts or NASA money and most of their financing is private.

The history of American spaceflight has been government led and financed from Mercury to the Space Shuttle...including the Atlas and Titan rockets.
What the...?
 
gigneil
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 27):
DARPA funding and COTS funding is hardly "peanuts".

Its been a couple hundred million dollars total vs billions and billions on the way over budget Ares.

Its a drop in the bucket vs what SpaceX has invested themselves.

NS
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:04 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 29):
Its been a couple hundred million dollars total vs billions and billions on the way over budget Ares.

Its a drop in the bucket vs what SpaceX has invested themselves.

Your assertion wasn't that the government has spent more on Ares than on SpaceX, your assertion was that SpaceX is all privately funded and what money they get from the government is peanuts.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 28):
Why get your shorts in a knot about semantics? The difference is SpaceX started, specifically, as a rocket business without government contracts or NASA money and most of their financing is private.

Because the semantics are little more than political spin. Most of their competitors started off as private ventures early in the 20th century.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 28):
The history of American spaceflight has been government led and financed from Mercury to the Space Shuttle...including the Atlas and Titan rockets.

Considering the government is the only real customer for orbital spaceflight, I'd say spaceflight is still mostly government financed.

Look, I don't want to derail the thread anymore. SpaceX isn't anymore privately financed than some of their competitors. Whoop-dee-doo.

It's still a worthy investment.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  
 
gigneil
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 30):
Your assertion wasn't that the government has spent more on Ares than on SpaceX, your assertion was that SpaceX is all privately funded and what money they get from the government is peanuts.

And I reiterate that claim. It IS all privately funded, and the money that they get from the government (to develop and purchase a product, I might add) IS peanuts.

The government owns no stake in it whatsoever. Its like saying Lockheed isn't publicly funded because they're a defense contractor.

NS
 
cosmofly
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:10 pm

Now that the Russian rocket has failed to send supplies yesterday, could Space X sent some fresh food as experimental load?  
 
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Tugger
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 30):
Considering the government is the only real customer for orbital spaceflight, I'd say spaceflight is still mostly government financed.

That is a very wrong statement.

Government spending (US and other nations) on space accounted for less than a third of the total spending. The commercial communication industry is huge is spending on space right now and it is growing while most government spending is stagnant.

http://www.thespacereport.org/files/...ce_Report_2011_exec_summary.pdf]

The report is a good summary of things.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
kalvado
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:29 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 33):

That is a very wrong statement.

Government spending (US and other nations) on space accounted for less than a third of the total spending. The commercial communication industry is huge is spending on space right now and it is growing while most government spending is stagnant.

There is a distinction between generic orbital delivery and human spaceflight.
Human spaceflight is 99+% government-funded (a few space tourists on government flights account for last percent)
Commertial satellites account for a very good part of launch market.
Original statement was about

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 30):
for orbital spaceflight,

which can be read both ways, but I would think big statement was about human flight..
 
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Tugger
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting kalvado (Reply 34):
which can be read both ways, but I would think big statement was about human flight..

Fair dinkum, point taken. I obviously was reading it as not exclusively referring to human spaceflight.

But is not much of the current crop of human-flight orbital systems being converted to human-use after development in the commercial market?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
zanl188
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:55 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
Wait and see.

I think Roscosmos and Soyuz are the best. Think reliability, efficiency and all these years of experience and success.

Go Roscosmos!

So much for reliability....

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe...russia.rocket/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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Boeing4ever
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:15 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 31):
And I reiterate that claim. It IS all privately funded, and the money that they get from the government (to develop and purchase a product, I might add) IS peanuts.

The government owns no stake in it whatsoever. Its like saying Lockheed isn't publicly funded because they're a defense contractor.

This is getting old. By that claim, it is no more private than Boeing, Lockheed, etc. The government owns no stakes in those companies either. So going back to my point about SpaceX not being the "first private spaceflight" company is again reiterated.

They are a contractor to the government. And the money from COTS/DARPA is NOT peanuts on their balance sheet.

Quoting tugger (Reply 33):
That is a very wrong statement.

Not quite. Another user already clarified. I had human spaceflight in mind when I typed that statement. My apologies for not being more specific.  
Quoting cosmofly (Reply 32):
Now that the Russian rocket has failed to send supplies yesterday, could Space X sent some fresh food as experimental load?

Why not? They've already successfully sent a cheesewheel into orbit.  http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/tech...010/12/spacexs-secret-payload.html

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JoeCanuck
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RE: SpaceX Capsule To Rendezvous With ISS

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:57 pm

Regardless of who is funding what, that isn't the big story. Having another vehicle humans can use to travel to space is the important thing.

I'm one of those that thinks human exploration of space is important and applaud any effort to keep it going. Frankly, I don't give a rats' butt about the semantics of who was private first or last.

I'm happy SpaceX will be supporting the ISS operations. The relative privateness of any of the participants is irrelevant.
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