simplikate
Topic Author
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:28 pm

A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:38 pm

Interesting article and render of an A380 Air Force One. EADS said no in 2009, but the official RFP is not going out til 2015 so this article seems to think it still possible. I can't imagine the US not going with Boeing but it makes for interesting chatter:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ot-linked-to-air-force-one-362355/
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:40 pm

The replacement will most likely be a 748-I. I hardly can imagine the US government not going Boeing on this one. Not to mention, this topic is discussed over and over with the same results.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8120
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:41 pm

Never going to happen even if Airbus gave them away for free, might as well delete the thread.............
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
simplikate
Topic Author
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:28 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:44 pm

The render is fun to look at at least.
 
KarlB737
Posts: 2632
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:04 pm

Quoting simplikate (Thread starter):
this article seems to think it still possible.

But this article doesn't:

EADS Waves Off Bid For Air Force One Replacement

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-air-force-one-replacement-321709/
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting simplikate (Reply 3):
The render is fun to look at at least.
.
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=19940

Enjoy it then.....for it's as far as it would get.  
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
mffoda
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 5):
Enjoy it then.....for it's as far as it would get.  

Those must be Rollers mounted on those wings too!   
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:36 pm

With the current federal budget situation in mind it is pretty sure that we will be free to make any wild speculation about AF1 replacement at least until the end of the decade. Any plan, which the USAF has aired, is sure to be postponed.

And what's the problem? Those VC-25s are likely to have been well maintained, and they may have the lowest cycles and hours count of all 747s in the world.

Unfortunately, even if they may be replaced in 10 - 15 - 20 years, then it is too optimistic to assume that replacement can be a straight airliner like the DC-6 AF1 fifty years ago. Therefore, look out for future replacement of the E-4 planes, likely way out in the future.

Like today, any future AF1 and E-4 are likely to partly share the world's most advanced defence and communication systems, and therefore also pretty much crew training. Those system are of course classified and prone to rather frequent updates or replacements, so the planes will definitely be American. Those things are not simple bolt on units. Very likely E-4 and VC-25 planes will be replaced rather simultaneously, and once again with the same plane type as basis.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:53 pm

This thread continues the idea that this subject must be reviewed every 3 months... always hoping for a different response.

Ans: Never....
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1497
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:23 pm

An A380 FAL for just two A380's in Mobile would help Airbus/EADS a great deal in securing this order...     

Cheers!   
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
j.mo
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:29 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:11 pm

Even that USAF VIP paint scheme can't make the A380 look good. What an ugly airplane.

JM
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9821
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting simplikate (Thread starter):
Interesting article and render of an A380 Air Force One. EADS said no in 2009, but the official RFP is not going out til 2015 so this article seems to think it still possible. I can't imagine the US not going with Boeing but it makes for interesting chatter:

The president who orders an A380 for AF1 would be crucified. It's not as if we don't make something similar here, and this is a megabucks purchase employing thousands.

On top of all that, with our budget issues, I think AF1 should be a 737. Make it a 737-200. And in order to make it earn a little extra money, get rid of all the reporters in the back and convert the rear to mail/cargo.

Better yet, the presidential candidate in 2012 who declares that, until the budget is balanced, the VIP wing at Andrews will be mothballed, that AF1 will be a rented airliner from American Airlines or United (Like the Brits do), and all other travel including congress shall be commercial, would probably get an extra 20% of the vote right there.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13251
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:35 pm

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 4):
But this article doesn't:

EADS Waves Off Bid For Air Force One Replacement

That was nearly 3 years ago. Things may change.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
BladeLWS
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):

That was nearly 3 years ago. Things may change.

yea, and pigs may fly... OH WAIT! lol
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):

The president who orders an A380 for AF1 would be crucified. It's not as if we don't make something similar here, and this is a megabucks purchase employing thousands

The RFP is due for 2015. When Obama makes that decision, he'll be deep into his second term. I would think at that point it really won't matter what happens.

I do agree that AF1 should be less ostenstatious though, but more for practical reasons than political. A combination of say, 788 (for the VC25) & A321NEO (for the C32) would do great, as they would meet the needs assigned as well as fit into existing airfields world-wide better than a 380 would, and actually better than the current VC25 does. Kind of surprised no one has mentioned this yet...
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 14):
The RFP is due for 2015. When Obama makes that decision, he'll be deep into his second term. I would think at that point it really won't matter what happens.

What makes you think Obama is going to get reelected? Even if he does, he "owes" the unions in the US. He would not order any A-380VIP for AF-1 just because of that.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 14):
A combination of say, 788 (for the VC25) & A321NEO (for the C32) would do great, as they would meet the needs assigned as well as fit into existing airfields world-wide better than a 380 would, and actually better than the current VC25 does. Kind of surprised no one has mentioned this yet...

While I believe the B-748 is going to be the replacement AF-1, I doubt the A-321NEO has any chance due to the unions. So the C-32A/B replacement (AF-2 and other VIP uses) will be either a C-46 derivitive (B-767-2C), configuered as a pax/VIP airplane, a B-767-400ER, or the B-787-800. The C-40B replacement will, most likely be the B-737-8MAX, or if Boeing offers to build, a possible B-787-700/-400.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:12 pm

For those looking for a visual...

Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
wn700driver
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 10:55 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:13 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):

What makes you think Obama is going to get reelected? Even if he does, he "owes" the unions in the US. He would not order any A-380VIP for AF-1 just because of that

The current crop of GOP contenders. And as far as owing unions anything, he really wouldn't. It's his second term at that point, not much for him to worry over... Anyway, to say any more than that would be off topic, so I'll leave it that...

I don't see a 380 VIP happening either, but for more than political reasons. If the VC25 is replaced with a 787-8 (mililtary VIP derrivitive no doubt...) and something in the 320 to 321 NEO size range for the C-32, we'll have a Capital transport fleet with the capabilities they need and the ability to use most airports and runways in the world. A 380 would be hideously cumbersome by comparison, & I doubt the 748i is much better there.

A C-46 to replace the C-32 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much airplane for that. I think the C-32 is already too big as it is. It would almost be better just to buy a few more C-40s (those are the military spec 73Gs, right?), if that is the only other option.

But, the process for procurement being what it is, yes it may very well be a 748i that ends up replacing both VC-25s. Even though a 788 would be better.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:38 pm

The C-32's still have a long life ahead of them.. however when replaced they will probably bypass the C-40 for a 737-900 or 737MAX-9 and create a new C- number for it. Heck the 737 replacement may be available by then not just the upgraded MAX.

For those who think there is lots of room on a C-32, there isn't, things are packed in with little free room.. and it's sure a lot cheaper than having the Sec. of State taking a VC-25 to meetings.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 18):
The C-32's still have a long life ahead of them..

I think they will be the last 757's in the air to retire, whenever it is that they do retire of course. A stretched C-40B might offer comparable room as a 757-200, but it will never match the thrust of the 757 platform.

The USAF wants options and the last thing they want to do has hand Boeing a sole-source contract for the VC-25 replacement, and pay through the nose for it. The aircraft may be a new Boeing or Airbus aircraft, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the prime contractor, especially when we are only talking 2 or 3 airframes.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ot-linked-to-air-force-one-362355/
 
mffoda
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:03 am

I don't even know why this thread is still going...

If we were talking about a commercial venture (airline)... Why would anyone want a smaller sub fleet (2-3 A/C) to add to the already small fleet you already have (8-9 A/C)? There tons of 747-A380 threads debating this very fact all the time! In this case its make ZERO sense??
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:18 am

I tried the suggested the thread deletion button, however the moderators seem to want this to go on.. They're hoping that if enough threads suggesting the A380 are initiated, the Air Force will bend to A.Nets's will and beg Airbus..   

That said

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
The USAF wants options and the last thing they want to do has hand Boeing a sole-source contract for the VC-25 replacement, and pay through the nose for it. The aircraft may be a new Boeing or Airbus aircraft, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the prime contractor, especially when we are only talking 2 or 3 airframes.

First we know your opinion of Boeing from previous threads and your statement "USAF wants options and the last thing they want to do has hand Boeing a sole-source" is blatently incorrect.

Fuurther there is so much unique stuff on board, converting a BBJ or used commercial would be even more expensive. For instance all the wiring would have to be removed and replaced with higher EMF shielded wires. This is easily done during assembly but a b***ch afterwards (we know we had to do it on the first VC-25). The Secret Service would have a fit over using a used commercial plane.
 
oldeuropean
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 5:19 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:37 am

Quoting j.mo (Reply 10):
Even that USAF VIP paint scheme can't make the A380 look good. What an ugly airplane.

Well, we all have waited for such a comment, haven't we?
Without any further point, the last argument Airbus haters have, is: "It's an ugly plane!"  
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2154
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:39 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
The USAF wants options and the last thing they want to do has hand Boeing a sole-source contract for the VC-25 replacement, and pay through the nose for it.

I doubt the Air Force would want a fixed price contract for this one. There is too much risk involved. As for a cost +, doesn't matter who you chose, you will pay through the nose.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
The aircraft may be a new Boeing or Airbus aircraft, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the prime contractor, especially when we are only talking 2 or 3 airframes.

  

But the airframe OEM would be in the best position to understand all the intricacy of modifying the airframe. Having them as a sub contractor add a layer of bureaucracy that sometimes makes this more complicated. Specially if the sub and the prime are using different CAD systems and databases software.

bikerthai
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:04 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 21):

First we know your opinion of Boeing from previous threads and your statement "USAF wants options and the last thing they want to do has hand Boeing a sole-source" is blatently incorrect.

How is that "blatantly" incorrect? Besides defying common sense (who wants to pay more for less?), where have you ever read, heard, or seen the USAF say they want to buy whatever Boeing has to offer, for whatever price they have to offer? I'm sure the KC-46 will meet the USAF requirements, but let's not forget until the Boeing politicians changed the criteria for award in the final RFP, the USAF choose the KC-30 over the Boeing product. The USAF does not like being tethered to Boeing because it not only hurts the pricing that they can get, but also the level of product that they receive. Just like the GE F110 engine did for the F-16, and what the RR/GE alternative JSF engine are trying to achieve on that program, having two entities compete not only ensures best price, it also increases the product that that money buys.

I'm not sure where you get the impression that I am anti-Boeing? I may not agree on everything they do, but for the most part I am an ardent advocate of most things Boeing.  
Quoting kanban (Reply 21):
Fuurther there is so much unique stuff on board, converting a BBJ or used commercial would be even more expensive. For instance all the wiring would have to be removed and replaced with higher EMF shielded wires. This is easily done during assembly but a b***ch afterwards (we know we had to do it on the first VC-25). The Secret Service would have a fit over using a used commercial plane.

The current VC-25's began as green 743's with -400 upper decks, the last two off the line. From there, they were engineered to meet the needs of the customer, but before that point there was nothing different. When you tear down any aircraft far enough, you might be surprised to find that underneath even the most extensive modifications, there is still just an airplane underneath it all.

I've seen an old Navy R4D that was heavily converted for maritime surveillance during WWII, a program so classified at the time they still can't find any info on it, but it's still flying today as an otherwise normal looking DC-3 save for some of original internal modifications done nearly 60 years ago, with the flight cables for example having four 90 degree bends near the rear to accommodate some piece of hardware that the aircraft used to carry. The mod wasn't done by Douglass.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
But the airframe OEM would be in the best position to understand all the intricacy of modifying the airframe. Having them as a sub contractor add a layer of bureaucracy that sometimes makes this more complicated. Specially if the sub and the prime are using different CAD systems and databases software.

Well skip the bureaucracy and don't even include the OEM as a sub - their effort was completed when the original aircraft was assembled. It's not even really an issue, just a very surmountable obstacle at most. There are numerous examples of a variety of aircraft both civil and military, that were modified for a specific use and were not done by the aircraft's original manufacturer.

Remember what killed the VH-71? The WHMO kept wanting to add the kitchen sink and more so onto the aircraft until it just couldn't even get off the ground. The premise of the Air Force being interested in the A-380 and all that they could get in there is indeed, very exciting for they. The Air Force could theoretically buy a green A-380 from Airbus in Toulousse and then have Boeing do the conversion in PAE over to make it the next Air Force One. When you're only looking at two or three aircraft total, ANY thing is possible.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:27 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 24):
The current VC-25's began as green 743's with -400 upper decks, the last two off the line.

They were unique even before final assembly, doors, floor beams, retracting stairs, internal stairs to the lower lobe, provisions for refueling, relocated equipmemt. Yes, we screwed up on the wiring.. don't remember who took the fall, but it wasn't manufacturing. When you live on the manufacturing floor during these two birds assembly, you know when a airplane's structure is different.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 24):
I'm not sure where you get the impression that I am anti-Boeing?

Some now deleted comments on an earlier tanker thread.

Now when this replacement RFP comes up, it will go to only one company.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:52 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 25):
They were unique even before final assembly, doors, floor beams, retracting stairs, internal stairs to the lower lobe, provisions for refueling, relocated equipmemt. Yes, we screwed up on the wiring.. don't remember who took the fall, but it wasn't manufacturing. When you live on the manufacturing floor during these two birds assembly, you know when a airplane's structure is different.

Nothing that cannot be modified long after any aircraft has rolled out of the Boeing assembly line. It may not be easy, but it certainly can be done.

Quoting kanban (Reply 25):
Now when this replacement RFP comes up, it will go to only one company.

That may very well end up the case, but Boeing will not be the USAF's only option.
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 660
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:14 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
That was nearly 3 years ago. Things may change.

YOu are hoping against reality. EADS won't bid, and Boeing is a lock for this deal. Unlike the tanker contract (where EADS has a better shot at winning the KC-Y) there is no way the USAF will purchase an A380 for Presidential transport. So Airbus fans should put petitions together to get the KC-Y win.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 14):
788 (for the VC25) & A321NEO (for the C32) would do great, as they would meet the needs assigned as well as fit into existing airfields world-wide better than a 380 would, and actually better than the current VC25 does. Kind of surprised no one has mentioned this yet...

I think the reason is that
1. A321NEO would NEVER be bought. "Plane" and simple. USG would not even consider the purchase of Airbus especially for all the fits that the USG and Boeing have made to the WTO over subsidies and so on. For the USAF, it is a different matter....to fly politicians....ain't gonna happen. A Boeing product would be bought to replace what they have.

2. The 788 would be about perfect. I even think AF-1 will be replaced with a 777 variant. 747-8 seems to be the shoe-in, but the 777 would be a great Presidential aircraft.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2637
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:32 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 24):
How is that "blatantly" incorrect? Besides defying common sense (who wants to pay more for less?), where have you ever read, heard, or seen the USAF say they want to buy whatever Boeing has to offer, for whatever price they have to offer? I'm sure the KC-46 will meet the USAF requirements, but let's not forget until the Boeing politicians changed the criteria for award in the final RFP, the USAF choose the KC-30 over the Boeing product.

I wouldn't bring up the KC-45/KC-46 if I were you. I wouldn't want to associate my statements with EADS NA's blatent corruption of the selection process with pay for play "donations" to a US senator. Also hiring the head of the selection right after he retires... Which was forced due to multiple serious problems with the selection award... upto and including awarding the contract to a bidder inelegable to win said selection. Made inelegible by thier own intentional failure to meet a manditory requirement of the RFP.

More over, I somewhat doubt EADS could aquire the clearences and access to technologies that will be required for the next "AF1" bid. They had to scramble to meet these requirements for the tanker bid. Its clear that program will have a FRACTION of the requirements that AF1 will have. So much so I wouldn't be suprised if Boeing receives a commercial bid for 2-3 748, then the real bidding will be between the major miltiary aircraft providers for the modification and integration of the non-commercial equipment. So your second bidder is far more likely to be LM than Airbus.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13251
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:23 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 27):
YOu are hoping against reality.

I'm not hoping for anything.   

Just saying that things change - what was then might be different to next time.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2154
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:53 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 24):
Well skip the bureaucracy and don't even include the OEM as a sub - their effort was completed when the original aircraft was assembled. It's not even really an issue, just a very surmountable obstacle at most. There are numerous examples of a variety of aircraft both civil and military, that were modified for a specific use and were not done by the aircraft's original manufacturer.

That, my friend is much harder to do now-a-day than you think. In order to mod an aircraft efficiciently today, you will need the OEM data with respect to the original frame. The OEM are very reluctant to release that data without significant compensation or a good piece of the pie.

Try to mod the frame without that data and your cost has just increased. For minor mod, this may not be an issue. But for an airplane where you will be touching from nose to tail, it is just better to have the complete digital data when you start the mod. This is specially true if you have tons of wiring you have to run for all the special communication equipment you have on the airplane.

bikerthai
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:41 pm

I have not posted in the last few threads on this subject, but each and every time my point is consistent.
The POTUS is an office not an individual, the office and its current holder represent the USA. The US Airforce a/c that the president flies in gets the name Air Force One and is to a large degree a status symbol of the country, not the individual who inhabits the office at that time. I do not think the USA started the practise but they have been the most visible, most know about Air Force One the world over. I still don't get how they allowed the Marine One a/c to be a European product, but I digress.

If the USA has an aviation industry and the government decides to purchase an Airbus a/c to fly the president around, what exactly does that say about the nation, if the head cannot ride in a product produced by the workers of his nation how exactly is purchasing a foreign product going to improve the quality of the nations production?
The a/c is a status symbol, and if the best that the US can do is to have its leader fly around in a non-US product it says something.

Another point, why the US Airforce or any other government body would want to put the a/c out to bid and allow non-US bids is the real question, they afraid that the WTO is going to say that the presidentiala ride must be open to all nations?
 
HaveBlue
Posts: 2104
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:01 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 31):
The US Airforce a/c that the president flies in gets the name Air Force One and is to a large degree a status symbol of the country, not the individual who inhabits the office at that time. I do not think the USA started the practise but they have been the most visible, most know about Air Force One the world over

  

I agree 100%! The worlds leading military power, the most visible symbol of power and prestige in an airframe, it should be an in-house airframe. And I do like Airbus, I like just about anything that flies, but your sentiments on this subject are spot on imo.

Quoting par13del (Reply 31):
I still don't get how they allowed the Marine One a/c to be a European product, but I digress.

  

Ditto!
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:43 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 21):
I tried the suggested the thread deletion button, however the moderators seem to want this to go on.. They're hoping that if enough threads suggesting the A380 are initiated, the Air Force will bend to A.Nets's will and beg Airbus..  

I'm happy to see the moderators allowing the discussion to take place. Ignorance is best handled by education. Suppression makes it worse. Also find suggestions of moderators being partial because they do not suppress topics not like by some to be rather disturbing. Big thanks to the moderators for making the right decision.

As to the next AF1's model. I'm hoping they set good example by switching to something significantly smaller and reduce the amount of people included on each trip to show efficiency is valued at all levels. It probably is too much to hope for the UK version of using commercial flights and delegation to avoid billion dollar capital investments.

As to the possibilities of using something other than a domestic product. They did approve EADS helicopters, asked Airbus for information about using A380 and considering Boeing has no problems with flying managers on non Boeing business jets I find it unlikely but not impossible for a non US produced AF1.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:53 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
Boeing has no problems with flying managers on non Boeing business jets I find it unlikely but not impossible for a non US produced AF1.

Comparing a private company - Boeing - to the government of the USA is a bit of a stretch, they may both represent the country but everyone expects Boeing to run after the money, indeed the population did not kick them out when they decided to outsource jobs to other nations, the government however would have to sell out its citizens to run after the money, big difference. Imagine the USA government outsourcing it decisions to foreign countries, some citizens are upset because they believe it is done to private USA companies.

The a/c for Air Force One is not a straight up commercial product, comparing it to any airline doing due diligence and selecting the best products that fits its route structure makes no sense, what are the routes that the a/c will fly, how many hours per day, week, month, what is the RASM, CASM, XXSM to be considered, what about yields, fares etc. etc. etc.
Also remember that the a/c is supposed to be the place where POTUS rides out a nuclear exchange, that alone makes the a/c so heaviliy modified that it only bears an external resembalance to the commercial frame it is built on, it probably would be no cheaper it the Secret Service designed it themselves and asked Boeing and a few select suppliers to build it. A strecth I admit.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7427
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:52 am

There are few slam dunk certainties in this world.

However, the replacement of all of the types, (VVIP and E4) will be boeing.

The VC25/E4 will be replaced by B747-8's. IMO, the B777 and B787 will not provide enough room. Besides, there will be VVIP A380's, and are already VVIP B747-400's. There is no way that the POTUS will have something smaller.

IMO, the replacement for the B757 will probably be the B787. It is Boeing's new wonderplane, (tongue in check). There is no way that the US Govt is going to reject it.

The only real issue is the price tag.
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:59 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 30):
That, my friend is much harder to do now-a-day than you think. In order to mod an aircraft efficiciently today, you will need the OEM data with respect to the original frame. The OEM are very reluctant to release that data without significant compensation or a good piece of the pie.

But it's still done all the time, by plenty of different folks all around the world, not named Boeing.

The USAF will still seek an A380 bid on up until the date they actually issue an RFP and EADS formally declines because it offers them more space than anything Boeing has to offer (sounds like a good case for sole-sourcing.) Of course it would go through another US defense contractor most likely not named Boeing, but that is not a problem. Boeing may like everybody in Congress to believe the contrary, but the USAF knows.

Boeing may very well still end up with supplying the airframe, but that does not mean they will be any more than that; their hardly the only contractor on the VC-25 at that. As for the jingoism, if the USAF went with a 787 with RR engines, less than 50% of that aircraft would be made in the USA anyways. The USAF had to put out an RFP when they wanted to buy new tankers just because of the sheer size and number of aircraft being purchased, but that is not the same for a project that is only going to buy two or maybe three airframes at the most.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 35):
However, the replacement of all of the types, (VVIP and E4) will be boeing.

Why do you assume that it will be Boeing, Lockheed Martin could also build the a/c, based on the last inquiry the number of frames are now up to 3, the mandate that the a/c have been in commercial service for a set number of years is "changeable" to say the least, certainely no one is the US wants a repeat of the tanker fiasco where the US contractor was simply a middle man looking to profit and contribute essentially zilch to the process. Indeed EADS did get themselves in a position to bid on the next contract as an independent entity, that in an of itself may offer some proof on the "folly" of the initial joint venture.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2154
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:31 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
and considering Boeing has no problems with flying managers on non Boeing business jets I find it unlikely but not impossible for a non US produced AF1.

Please provide source. I didn't know that Boeing own any private business jet. AFAIK the only jets they "own" are those used in testing. From what I understand Boeing personnel travel via commercial carriers to "support their customer". Don't know about the Executives though.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 36):
But it's still done all the time, by plenty of different folks all around the world, not named Boeing.

Don't disagree. The Dream Lifter was mod by someone other than "Boeing". NG also does a lot of Mod. But believe me when I say, with the support of the OEM, modifying the airplane will be much easier.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 36):
As for the jingoism, if the USAF went with a 787 with RR engines, less than 50% of that aircraft would be made in the USA anyways.

You can make more headway if you assemble the airplane in the US (that how Marine One and the KC-45 was sold). You will not be assembling an A380 in the US. So there you go.

bikerthai
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7427
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:45 pm

The starting point for AF1 will be an existing type, surely you do not think that LM will offer a clear sheet proposal for 3 airframes.

The only company "made in America" is Boeing.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:12 pm

I also agree with others that the 748i is a shoe in for the job. Another point is that the aircraft will have a few years of experience under the belt. Something that was a factor in why the 747-400 was not chossen as it was "too new".

I also believe that the "attic space" will be utilized on the 748i for some top secret goodies. At least that's what I'd do.  
Quoting par13del (Reply 31):
I still don't get how they allowed the Marine One a/c to be a European product, but I digress.

Guess I missed something - wasn't the program cancelled outright?
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:16 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 34):
Comparing a private company - Boeing - to the government of the USA is a bit of a stretch

If anything the company should be more reluctant using a competitors product when they are in the same (broad) segment. How to explain to customers their product is right when they don't use it themselves.

Government, as business, should be about being smart. Smart is using the best tool. You're absolutely correct in that a purchase like this can't be compared to an airline and the criteria you listed. But the selection process is (should) be very similar. Make your list of requirements. Define which are absolutes and which are good to have. Get quotations and then select the one that has the best mix.

The savings from using the right tool will have much higher effect when used smartly instead of satisfying artificially made up goal to satisfy pride.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:20 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 38):
Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
and considering Boeing has no problems with flying managers on non Boeing business jets I find it unlikely but not impossible for a non US produced AF1.

Please provide source. I didn't know that Boeing own any private business jet. AFAIK the only jets they "own" are those used in testing. From what I understand Boeing personnel travel via commercial carriers to "support their customer". Don't know about the Executives though.

Doesn't Boeing use some small (smaller than a 737) aircraft to move flight test and maintenance crews around? The initial statement leaves much room for interpretation.. Managers going anywhere on commercial flights take what ever plane gets them there. Engineers try to take the competition to see what they are up to.

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
I'm happy to see the moderators allowing the discussion to take place. Ignorance is best handled by education.

As I noted a thread on this subject comes up every three months or so... and the only thing new this time around is someone believing it makes economic sense to build a green a/p/, fly it to another site and totally gut it down to the skin and stringers, and install structure that could have been easily installed in the original production process.. This is known as rework and if done, the finished a/p with all the change documentation could easily cost twice that one modified during basic production by the OEM..

I disagree that every thread proposed needs life especially if we have others on the same subject on the books and nothing has changed.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:32 pm

Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:36 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 42):
I disagree that every thread proposed needs life especially if we have others on the same subject on the books and nothing has changed.

If some people have an interest in discussing something why shouldn't they be allowed to? They don't force you to partake.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 39):
The starting point for AF1 will be an existing type, surely you do not think that LM will offer a clear sheet proposal for 3 airframes.

Why not, the parameters are different, why exactly do you think it takes years to bring a commercial frame to market, its not because they don't have computers and wind tunnel or the latest technologies to ensure that all involved PROFIT first and foremost.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 40):
Guess I missed something - wasn't the program cancelled outright?

Does not change the fact that a foreign product was selected to serve as the helicopter office for POTUS, my comment was that it was actually bid externally and selected.

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
Government, as business, should be about being smart. Smart is using the best tool. You're absolutely correct in that a purchase like this can't be compared to an airline and the criteria you listed. But the selection process is (should) be very similar. Make your list of requirements. Define which are absolutes and which are good to have. Get quotations and then select the one that has the best mix.

I gues we differ on the requirements, if the product is for the leader of the country, is used to project the strength and power of the nation, and an industry exist in country, my first requirement would be that the product be local, all else is secondary. Hence the reason why political products are so vastly different to commercial.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 45):
my first requirement would be that the product be local, all else is secondary

I'll always put functionality first.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2154
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:37 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 38):
Please provide source. I didn't know that Boeing own any private business jet.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ral_aviation/print.main?id=3365362

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...tives-airports-boeing-business-jet

http://www.garychicagoairport.com/PressRelease_detail.asp?ID=8

Good references. I am enlightened.

A more recent reference:

"Those aircraft include a Boeing 737 airliner outfitted as a flying office suite and a number of Bombardier jets."

Read more: http://www.nwitimes.com/business/tra...86-d30aec11a62e.html#ixzz1Zq5z7q1V

So Bombardier would be the "foreign" jet (may be they should have bought Leer). Although, didn't Boeing had a stake in Bombardier once-upon-a-time?

bikerthai
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:39 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 45):
Guess I missed something - wasn't the program cancelled outright?

Does not change the fact that a foreign product was selected to serve as the helicopter office for POTUS, my comment was that it was actually bid externally and selected.

That still doesn't answer my question.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: A380 To Replace Air Force One In 2017?

Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 46):
I'll always put functionality first.

Like I said, we differ, no problem with that.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 48):
That still doesn't answer my question.

Program was cancelled for cost, at least that is what President Obama stated publicy.

My thought process was on the fact that the RFP did allow a foreign bid which actually won. Now are you saying that the billions spent procuring a few frames was just a sham and they actually had no intention of putting the a/c into service? If that is the case you may actually have a point, after all, the entire project was to purchase a/c for the Marines search and rescue and outfit several frames for the POTUS, when the presidentail frames were cancelled due to cost the entire project was as well, so its possible.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests