as739x
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Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:24 pm

Just seems a little off that they only order 4. I don't follow military as most of you on here, so I have to ask, is this testing the waters with ordering only 4?

The Japan Ministry of Defense has announced its selection of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II as the Japan Air Self Defense Force's next generation fighter aircraft, following the F-X competitive bid process. The United States government offered the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing variant under the F-X competition. The initial contract will be for four jets in Japan’s fiscal year 2012, which begins April 1. (www.examiner.com)
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747400sp
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:28 pm

This is great news! I think F35s are great replacements for Japan's F-4 fleet.
 
Oroka
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:51 pm

Flightglobal is saying Japan ordered 42 to replace its F-4 fleet. Too bad they cant get F-22s to replace their F-15s.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:56 am

This order could prompt a South Korean order for F-35's as well. They have a fleet of F-4's that also needs replacement, and the F-35 has been mentioned multiple times as a candidate for the third stage of their F-X program.
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting as739x (Thread starter):
Just seems a little off that they only order 4. I don't follow military as most of you on here, so I have to ask, is this testing the waters with ordering only 4?

No, there will be many F-13's delivered to Japan, but apparently for Fiscal year 2012 they budgeted for 4 aircraft, with more to follow after that.

Quoting as739x (Thread starter):
The initial contract will be for four jets in Japan’s fiscal year 2012, which begins April 1. (www.examiner.com)

 
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:51 am

its really the only true 5th generation aircrfat availible to both countrie sto offset the new russian and chinese aircraft so it doesnt superise me.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Wed May 02, 2012 6:10 am

The DSCA notice has been posted:

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2012/Japan_12-15.pdf

Quote:
WASHINGTON, May 1, 2012 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress April 30 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Japan for a possible sale of an initial four F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft with an option to purchase an additional 38 F-35 CTOL aircraft. The estimated cost is $10 billion.

All aircraft will be configured with the Pratt and Whitney F-135 engines, and 5 spare Pratt and Whitney F-135 engines. Other Aircraft Equipment includes: Electronic Warfare Systems, Command, Control, Communication, Computers and Intelligence/Communication, Navigational and Identifications (C4I/CNI), Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS), Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), Flight Mission Trainer, Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities, F-35 unique infrared flares, reprogramming center, and F-35 Performance Based Logistics. Also included: software development/integration, flight test instrumentation, aircraft ferry and tanker support, spare and repair parts, support equipment, tools and test equipment, technical data and publications, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $10 billion.

Looks like this sale is getting very close to being a confirmed order.
 
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Wed May 02, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 6):
The estimated cost is $10 billion.

$10B / 42 = $238M

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mffoda
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Wed May 02, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
$10B / 42 = $238M

Just sayin'....

From Flightglobal:

"At $10 billion, the deal values each aircraft at roughly $238 million, although this number includes a lifetime of support."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...se-f-35-deal-at-10-billion-371362/

I believe I've read somewhere that when considering "lifetime of support" for a fighter jet, the support ratio is somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 times the unit fly away cost?? Anyone else ever seen these ratio's used?

[Edited 2012-05-02 10:05:49]
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kc135topboom
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Wed May 02, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 8):
I believe I've read somewhere that when considering "lifetime of support" for a fighter jet, the support ratio is somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 times the unit fly away cost?? Anyone else ever seen these ratio's used?

Yes, about 3.5 X the unit flyaway costs, over 30 years is normal for a fighter. But the F-35 is not a normal fighter in the sense it is a stealth aircraft, and maintaning that is very expensive.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Thu May 03, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 8):
From Flightglobal:

"At $10 billion, the deal values each aircraft at roughly $238 million, although this number includes a lifetime of support."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...se-f-35-deal-at-10-billion-371362/

I believe I've read somewhere that when considering "lifetime of support" for a fighter jet, the support ratio is somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 times the unit fly away cost?? Anyone else ever seen these ratio's used?

[Edited 2012-05-02 10:05:49]

Yep, support costs can easily be 2-3 times the unit fly away costs. Don't forget that given the nature of the JSF partnership, per unit pricing differs for partners and non-partners. Simplified, partners contributing to the MOU do not pay for R&D costs on the airframes they purchase; non-partners do pay those costs.
 
Legs
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Thu May 03, 2012 8:35 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
about 3.5 X the unit flyaway costs

For comparisons sake, the Australian Super Hornet ended up being about 3.7 times the flyaway cost.

Are these F-35 deals as comprehensive as that contract though? Are they including fuel and weapons and the whole shebang as well?
 
mffoda
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Thu May 03, 2012 2:58 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
Yes, about 3.5 X the unit flyaway costs, over 30 years is normal for a fighter. But the F-35 is not a normal fighter in the sense it is a stealth aircraft, and maintaning that is very expensive.
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 10):
Yep, support costs can easily be 2-3 times the unit fly away costs. Don't forget that given the nature of the JSF partnership, per unit pricing differs for partners and non-partners. Simplified, partners contributing to the MOU do not pay for R&D costs on the airframes they purchase; non-partners do pay those costs.
Quoting legs (Reply 11):
For comparisons sake, the Australian Super Hornet ended up being about 3.7 times the flyaway cost.

Thanks guys,

So, this $10 Billion dollar number for 42 A/C seems to be in-line with what LM has been saying all along (regarding unit flyaway cost). When you take away the questionable news reporting on the costs of this project... It seems to be tracking according to plan (reasonably).

$10 Billion / 42 = $238 million per A/C (Life time support included)

$238m / 3.5 = $68m per A/C (unit flyaway cost)
$238m / 2.5 = $95.2m per A/C (unit flyaway cost)

I suspect the real number will be somewhere in between....
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Oroka
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Fri May 04, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 12):
$238m / 3.5 = $68m per A/C (unit flyaway cost)
$238m / 2.5 = $95.2m per A/C (unit flyaway cost)

I suspect the real number will be somewhere in between....

Even if it is the $92m price, it is well below what all the anti-F-35 sources are quoting.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Japan Orders (4) F-35's

Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:04 am

Update: Mitsubishi is working with Lockheed Martin on a FACO (Final Assembly and Check Out) facility, with the first Japanese F-35 rolling off the line in 2017:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...th-mitsubishi-on-f-35-line-377480/

This will be important, not only for Japan, but for the US as it means F-35's from the USAF and USN can be maintained in Japan rather than having to be flown back to the US.

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