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Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:13 pm

Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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alberchico
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:21 pm

Wouldn't the F-35 be a better purchase instead if more f-15s or would the US not sell them any ?
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bikerthai
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:51 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):

Wouldn't the F-35 be a better purchase instead if more f-15s or would the US not sell them any ?

I would venture to guess they did not teach you 20th century middle east history in school  

Israel and it's supporter in congress would not allow Saudi to buy the F-35. I would not be suprised if they would stop any F-15SE sale to Saudi as well.

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LAXintl
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:43 pm

Yes this sale was announced 1-year ago.

Largest US Arms Sale Ever, To Saudi Kingdom (by STT757 Sep 13 2010 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
Wouldn't the F-35 be a better purchase instead

Actually, it'd be a better purchase for the US too....
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:34 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):

Hmmm, the way it was written, it looked like it was a new transaction.

My bad. Mods, delete if necessary.
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alberchico
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 2):
Israel and it's supporter in congress would not allow Saudi to buy the F-35. I would not be suprised if they would stop any F-15SE sale to Saudi as well.

Wonder if that might push the Saudis to buy the Sukhoi PAK-FA ?
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bikerthai
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:03 pm

The Saudi have money and expect first class service and support along with their equipment. This is not a strong point for either Russian or Chinese hardware. If anything, they would go back to Europe.

Besides, they don't need stealth and they are not expecting to face an enemy with stealth capabilities (excluding Israel of course).

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Spacepope
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:23 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 7):

The Saudi have money and expect first class service and support along with their equipment. This is not a strong point for either Russian or Chinese hardware. If anything, they would go back to Europe.

Indeed, this is part of a package order. Here's what they got:

Quote:
WASHINGTON, October 20, 2010 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Saudi Arabia of:

84 F-15SA Aircraft
170 APG-63(v)3 Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar (AESA) radar sets
193 F-110-GE-129 Improved Performance Engines
100 M61 Vulcan Cannons
100 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System/Low Volume Terminal (MIDS/LVT) and spares
193 LANTIRN Navigation Pods (3rd Generation-Tiger Eye)
338 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
462 AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVGS)
300 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles
25 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM-9X)
25 Special Air Training Missiles (NATM-9X)
500 AIM-120C/7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
25 AIM-120 CATMs
1,000 Dual Mode Laser/Global Positioning System (GPS) Guided Munitions (500 lb)
1,000 Dual Mode Laser/GPS Guided Munitions (2000 lb)
1,100 GBU-24 PAVEWAY III Laser Guided Bombs (2000 lb)
1,000 GBU-31B V3 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) (2000 lb)
1,300 CBU-105D/B Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW)/Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)
50 CBU-105 Inert
1,000 MK-82 500lb General Purpose Bombs
6,000 MK-82 500lb Inert Training Bombs
2,000 MK-84 2000lb General Purpose Bombs
2,000 MK-84 2000lb Inert Training Bombs
200,000 20mm Cartridges
400,000 20mm Target Practice Cartridges
400 AGM-84 Block II HARPOON Missiles
600 AGM-88B HARM Missiles
169 Digital Electronic Warfare Systems (DEWS)
158 AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Targeting Systems
169 AN/AAS-42 Infrared Search and Track (IRST) Systems
10 DB-110 Reconnaissance Pods
462 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System Helmets
40 Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receivers (ROVER)
80 Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Pods

Also included are the upgrade of the existing Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) fleet of seventy (70) F-15S multi-role fighters to the F-15SA configuration, the provision for CONUS-based fighter training operations for a twelve (12) F-15SA contingent, construction, refurbishments, and infrastructure improvements of several support facilities for the F-15SA in-Kingdom and/or CONUS operations, RR-188 Chaff, MJU-7/10 Flares, training munitions, Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices, communication security, site surveys, trainers, simulators, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistical support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost is $29.432 billion
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Devilfish
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:20 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 2):

Israel and it's supporter in congress would not allow Saudi to buy the F-35.

Reminds me of the old saying about not wishing something against even your worst enemies.   They might just let the Saudis have it for the latter to suffer the headaches of working the bugs out of early production frames.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 7):
Besides, they don't need stealth and they are not expecting to face an enemy with stealth capabilities (excluding Israel of course).

Apart from that, it was mentioned that there would be built-in technologies which could render its capabilities ineffective against similar U.S. systems.
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kanban
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:37 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 5):
Hmmm, the way it was written, it looked like it was a new transaction.

Actually the contract was just signed... so in a way your news flash is correct. There are often years between when a sale is proposed for Congress to approve and the actual approval and contract signing.
 
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 2):
Israel and it's supporter in congress would not allow Saudi to buy the F-35. I would not be suprised if they would stop any F-15SE sale to Saudi as well.

Then Israel and it's supporters need to reach their pockets and match such a deal with a similar order in terms of $$$ rather than living of our tax money.

From the linked article:

Quote:
The White House says the fighter jets will be manufactured by Boeing, and will support more than 50,000 U.S. jobs.

This is the bottom line we all should look at.
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:05 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
Quote:
The White House says the fighter jets will be manufactured by Boeing, and will support more than 50,000 U.S. jobs.

This is the bottom line we all should look at.

This doesn't make any sence at all. This is building 84 new F-15s, yet the KC-46 build of 179 new tankers will also support 50,000 jobs?
 
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:02 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
This doesn't make any sence at all. This is building 84 new F-15s, yet the KC-46 build of 179 new tankers will also support 50,000 jobs?

It makes sense when you look at the time both projects will take. The tankers will be built over a much longer period.
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bikerthai
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:20 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
Then Israel and it's supporters need to reach their pockets and match such a deal with a similar order in terms of $$$ rather than living of our tax money.

Don't worry, Israel will get their F-35. It's just that US tax payer's pocket will be the one that they will reach in to. 
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
This doesn't make any sence at all. This is building 84 new F-15s, yet the KC-46 build of 179 new tankers will also support 50,000 jobs?

Just to show how much more efficient a commercial line is versus a military line.  

Kidding aside, the quote is for 50,000 jobs, not Boeing Jobs. With all the hardware quoted by Spacescope as being purchased along with the air frames, it is plausible that 50,000 us job can be supported by this contract.

Don't forget that the contract is also to upgrade all their old F-15's, which is almost like re-building a whole new aircraft considering how much all the electronic hardware upgrade will cost. Heck, the cost of all the upgrade may even be more than the price of the original airframe (inflation not taken into account of course)   . I wonder if new engines will come with the upgrade. If yes, then might as well consider it approximately 160 frames as opposed to just 84.

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bennett123
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:15 pm

I recall large amounts of US kit being sold to Iran pre 1979 as well.

I hope that given the way things are evolving in that region that history does not repeat itself.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:11 pm

I understand the reasoning behind the deal but I do not like it.

BTW, have the 72 typhoons Saudi Arabia ordered been delivered or has this order been cancelled?

Germany recently also sold 270 (!) Leopard 2 A7 tanks to them. Smart move.
 
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:18 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 15):
I recall large amounts of US kit being sold to Iran pre 1979 as well.

I hope that given the way things are evolving in that region that history does not repeat itself.

The Saudi's are dependent on foreign support on their military hardware. Lots of foreign technical specialists in Saudi Arabia maintaining their military hardware, and if they all left, well, the Saudi's will have a very difficult time keeping their birds even airworthy.
 
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:47 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 16):
BTW, have the 72 typhoons Saudi Arabia ordered been delivered or has this order been cancelled?

Some have been delivered, there are 'kits' ready at BAE Warton which may be assembled in Saudi Arabia.
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 17):
The Saudi's are dependent on foreign support on their military hardware. Lots of foreign technical specialists in Saudi Arabia maintaining their military hardware, and if they all left, well, the Saudi's will have a very difficult time keeping their birds even airworthy.

And if they turn off the oil spigots, the world economy would collapse.

Isn't it interesting how interlinked all these things are?
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cmb56
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:46 pm

Going by the entries so far the Saudis will have at the end of this 226 top of the line fighter / strike aircraft along with some number of tanker aircraft to support them and a pretty good supply of non-defensive ordanance to drop from them. Playing the devil's advocate here why wouldn't Iran consider this to be pretty threatening and the only way to counter this force is with nukes? If Iran suddenly change position and scrapped their nuclear program or made it very open and commercial only would the west allow weapons sales to bring them to parity with the Saudis?
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Another Big F-15 Order To Saudi Arabia

Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting cmb56 (Reply 20):
Playing the devil's advocate here why wouldn't Iran consider this to be pretty threatening and the only way to counter this force is with nukes? If Iran suddenly change position and scrapped their nuclear program or made it very open and commercial only would the west allow weapons sales to bring them to parity with the Saudis?

Only way the West will play nice with Iran, with it's current leaders, is if we get nowhere with Pakistan, and if Iran stop supporting Hamas and Hesbola. There is more to the Iranian than just nukes.

As for the hardware, maybe it may seem impressive and can support a short tit-for-tat, I don't know if it can sustain a prolong conflict. Ofcourse, any prolong conflict would bring in the U.S., and a larger arsenal would not be nessesary.

Only thing the Saudi needs now would be an upgrade to their maritime patrol. P-8's anyone?
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