hannahpa
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Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:12 am

After looking at pics of the current Air Force One, a heavily modified 747-200B, it is starting to look quite old. I am aware that the government, according to Wikipedia, is planning on replacing AF1 in 2017. I am pretty sure that it will be a new 748.

Does any one have any new information when the US government will replace AF1??? I know that the govn't is trying to cut back spending, but I think it is time to replace the bird. After all, AF1 is circa 1990.......
 
N62NA
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:18 am

Ugh.... How about a much less expensive (and more fuel efficient) 787 instead?
 
airtran737
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting hannahpa (Thread starter):

Those airplanes are most likely the cleanest and best maintained aircraft in the world. While they have been in service for awhile, they have extremely low cycles and hours on the airframe. They have a lot of life left in them.
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airportugal310
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting hannahpa (Thread starter):
Does any one have any new information when the US government will replace AF1??? I know that the govn't is trying to cut back spending, but I think it is time to replace the bird. After all, AF1 is circa 1990.......

You're right. At some point they have to be replaced, but with all the talk as you mention of fiscal responsibility yada yada from the POTUS and presidential candidates, don't expect it until the scheduled 2017 date you mention

It would cause quite the uproar I suspect.

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 2):
Those airplanes are most likely the cleanest and best maintained aircraft in the world. While they have been in service for awhile, they have extremely low cycles and hours on the airframe. They have a lot of life left in them.

Agreed. Those aircraft are maintained immaculately; old in age doesn't equate to useless, so to speak.
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hannahpa
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):

Maybe the 787-9. I think the -8 is too small. You do raise a good point, though, about fuel efficiency and pollution. I wonder, does the government NEED such a big plane such as the 747? Other than the complex security systems in the upper deck of the 742 AF1, do they need all that room(s)

Maybe even the 787-10????
 
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ADent
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:33 am

4 engines have a lot of advantages - but the fact there are 2 AF1s negate many of them.

I think the next AF1 will be a 747-8i, but the one after that will be a twin engine plane in 2047.

The prez shouldn't get a new AF1 until all the KC135s and B-52s from the 60s are replaced.
 
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting hannahpa (Reply 4):
Other than the complex security systems in the upper deck of the 742 AF1, do they need all that room(s)

Maybe even the 787-10????



Doesn't AF 1 have special fortification to act as the airborne White House? In the event of a nuclear attack or other catastrophe isn't this aircraft equipped to remain airborne for up to four days?
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RWA380
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:39 am

I would hope it's a 748i, The safety advantage of 4 engines alone make my point, but also AF1 is a heavy plane with tons of extras, missile avoidance systems etc... I am not sure how old, how many cycles, miles the 707's had when they were retired. I'm sure the 742's now used are pristine, but there are some definite differences between the two planes used. The leader of the free world should be flying in a 4 holer with Boeing on the name tag.
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:14 am

I hope it is nothing in the next decade. Any president that approves replacing AF1 is going to get skewered. After all the bad press about corporate jets, I can't imagine spending almost $1 Billion on a pair of new 747s (A380s or anything else) is a good idea. There's no reason why the current planes can't continue flying as the maintenance program is top notch.
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ssteve
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:10 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
Any president that approves replacing AF1 is going to get skewered.

Reagan did it in his second term, right? No biggie if you're not up for re-election. However, I do agree there's no rush.
 
gigneil
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:15 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 5):
4 engines have a lot of advantages - but the fact there are 2 AF1s negate many of them.

A second AF1 will not help you if you are falling out of the sky.

It will be a 747-8. There are no other options that would be accepted.

NS
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:37 am

EADS-USA will win the order with an A380. Then Boeing will blow a fit and buy call girls for half of Congress and all of the Air Force and there will be a "re-evaluation" and the 748i will win.

 
Quoting airtran737 (Reply 2):

Those airplanes are most likely the cleanest and best maintained aircraft in the world.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Piotr Zdunek


Indeed they are.

I will point out that there is generally no advantage to 4 engines over 2 (4 engines = 2x risk of uncontained failure). However, if you lose one engine in a twin, you have to land. When you are flying the President in the middle of a national disaster, this is not the sort of problem you want to have. Four is better for this specific application.
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stasisLAX
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
EADS-USA will win the order with an A380. Then Boeing will blow a fit and buy call girls for half of Congress and all of the Air Force and there will be a "re-evaluation" and the 748i will win.

Given the relationship that the current Administration has with the dysfunctional U.S. Congress, I foresee a used (Cubana?) IL-96 being requistioned as the new Air Force One. Score one more for the "Marxists"   
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Newark727
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:12 am

What would a 747-8i be able to do that the current aircraft cannot? As long as there's enough room for the big red nuke button we should be cool, right? (sarcasm post)
 
warden145
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:35 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 10):
It will be a 747-8. There are no other options that would be accepted.

I think that statement's correct. I'm proudly and passionately on the "four" side of the four vs two engine argument, but even putting that aside, the military loves redundancies, and I'm pretty sure the call's going to end up being theirs. Besides, DocLightning's comments make good sense. In addition, they have to consider if Air Force One actually gets attacked...very slim chance, but having four engines helps in terms of having more redundancies in case an engine gets damaged in that unlikely situation.

I've actually had the sneaking suspicion for quite a while that the 747-8i program was started in large part with the next Air Force One in mind. With that said, especially when you look at how long the 707/VC-137 Air Force One's were used, I don't think replacing the current VC-25's high on the list of priorities...

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 12):
Given the relationship that the current Administration has with the dysfunctional U.S. Congress, I foresee a used (Cubana?) IL-96 being requistioned as the new Air Force One. Score one more for the "Marxists"

I would say that that was hilarious, except that with how poisonous partisan politics are in the U.S. right now, I wouldn't be surprised if someone actually tried that. I could go on, but don't want to go off-topic...
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ZKOJH
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:50 am

I can see something like 2 x 748i's to replace the current 747 and backup plane , and when the time comes 787-9's to replace the 757's - the new fleet will look fantastic with such modern aircraft. Would interior work be down at Boeing or Andrews AFB?
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747classic
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:18 am

During the recent visit of POTUS at the Everett 787 line, air-force one was already looking for here grandchild and possible successor.

KPAE, February 17, VC25 (28000) and 747-830 (D-ABYA), the first 747-8I, scheduled to become active end March.

Original uploaded by moonm, for other sizes see : http://www.flickr.com/photos/moonm/6897387271/in/photostream/
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gigneil
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 15):
I can see something like 2 x 748i's to replace the current 747 and backup plane , and when the time comes 787-9's to replace the 757's - the new fleet will look fantastic with such modern aircraft. Would interior work be down at Boeing or Andrews AFB?

I'm pretty uncertain that they would want to replace a 70ish seat 757 with a 200ish seat 787. They could replace those with a few options - BBJs based on the 737MAX being the most obvious.

NS
 
Max Q
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:07 am

The current B747 that serves as AF1 is such a unique Aircraft it will be hard to replace.


It is a highly customised Military Aircraft differing greatly from the standard civil version, to name just one it is completely hardened against EMP.


In this respect, older technology is much better, the more electronic / and / or software driven systems are installed in an Aircraft the more vulnerable it is to any kind of electronic interference, let alone EMP. The older systems are relatively immune to this problem, because of their mechanical simplicity.


In terms of redundancy, Four engines and four of everything else is priceless, staying on redundancy, having a Flight Engineer is also extremely valuable, allowing a professional to take care of technical issues downloading the Pilots to take care of flying the jet as their only priority.


With the benefit of the enormous extra power of the -400 engines married to the Classic -200 Airframe it is a very high performing machine.



These are just a few advantages of this 'old' Aircraft. It will be a tough act to follow, even with the 748.
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Oroka
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:24 pm

The VC-25 is in perfect shape, the best maintained 747 flying. Low cycles, good maintenance... the only reason to replace it would be fuel costs and image.

Yes, technically it is a 742, but that is the airframe, the rest of it is 744 and better. Replacing the VC-25 would be sending a perfectly good jet to the boneyard. Replacing it would be fiscally irresponsible, there is no need to tack on another half billion to the national debt for image.
 
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:16 pm

I don´t know what engines the USAF jumbos have (CF-6-50 or CF-6-80), but if you use an older CF-6-50 without FADEC, it is intrinsically EMP proof. Since all engine controls are mechanic, there are no computer circuits which can be damaged by an electromagnetic pulse.

Jan
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bikerthai
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):
Ugh.... How about a much less expensive (and more fuel efficient) 787 instead?

The base price of the airplane would not be as significant after considering all the modification that will be invoked to add all the bells and whistle. And unlike the tanker, these mod will not be incorporated in line to reduce cost.

It is much easier to modify a metal airplane than a composite airplane. There is little experience in cutting holes in a perfectly good composite airplane (other than what is done in a production environment) and add the extra stuff that an AF1 would require. Once the 787 flies around for a while and lessons are learned on how best to do it, then you can take this concern of the list.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):

In this respect, older technology is much better, the more electronic / and / or software driven systems are installed in an Aircraft the more vulnerable it is to any kind of electronic interference, let alone EMP. The older systems are relatively immune to this problem, because of their mechanical simplicity.

EMP and military EMI protection require additional (complicated) design details which are well understood on a metal airplane and is much more difficult on a composite airplane, (B-2 F-22 notwithstanding).

If a smaller airplane is warranted (for what ever reason), then a better plane would be the 777, which is all metal and would be a good candidate for the KC-10 replacement. Commonality of platform and design will go a long way to reduce costs.

bt
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Venus6971
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:55 pm

Its a 742 with a -300 wing, it would not suprise me that they keep the airframes and install either raked or winglets on the wing tips or reengine it to the -800 standard. Since Boeing Witchita is closing I wonder who will do the heavy D check, I wonder if will go back to Raytheon E systems like it was before in the old 707 days. I remember when I got my hands on 26000 after it was released from presidential service, it was 1990 and the 1962 model jet had alot of life in her and got flown hard doing alot of pilot profiency sorties.
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bikerthai
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 22):
Since Boeing Witchita is closing I wonder who will do the heavy D check, I wonder if will go back to Raytheon E systems like it was before in the old 707 days.

Mods and upgrades are profitable business. If Boeing is chosen for the work, they would probably do it in Oklahoma. That is where they shifted the Wichita mod operations to.

bt
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kc135topboom
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 5):
The prez shouldn't get a new AF1 until all the KC135s and B-52s from the 60s are replaced.

What's wrong with the 1950s and 1960s KC-135s or 1960s B-52s and C-130s?

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 6):
Doesn't AF 1 have special fortification to act as the airborne White House? In the event of a nuclear attack or other catastrophe isn't this aircraft equipped to remain airborne for up to four days?

Correct, the VC-25As, C-32A/Bs, C-37As, and C-40Bs are all EMP hardened.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 7):
I am not sure how old, how many cycles, miles the 707's had when they were retired.

VC-137C # 62-6000 began service in October 1962 and retired in March 1998, almost 36 years of service. When she went to the USAF Museum, she had less than 15,000 hours on her.

VC-137C # 72-7000 began service in July 1972 and retired in August 2002, over 30 years of service. When she went to the President Ronald Reagan Presidential Library, she had just over 10,000 hours on her.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
EADS-USA will win the order with an A380.

Actually EADS/Airbus was asked to participate in a VC-X program, but they declined. BTW, the currrent two VC-25As are planned to be replaced by three VC-Xs.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 19):
The VC-25 is in perfect shape, the best maintained 747 flying. Low cycles, good maintenance... the only reason to replace it would be fuel costs and image.

Actually they burn no more fuel than the B-747-400. The VC-25As have the B-747-300 wing profile, and the B-747-400 landing gear and engines on a B-747-200 airframe. They do differ from just about every other B-747 in the world as they have a Navigator crew position, air refueling receiver capable, and duel APUs, along with 'other stuff'. The E-4Bs have some of these things, too. The VC-25As are unique in one respect, both # 92-8000 and # 92-9000 are as identical as two airplanes can be.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20):
I don´t know what engines the USAF jumbos have (CF-6-50 or CF-6-80), but if you use an older CF-6-50 without FADEC, it is intrinsically EMP proof. Since all engine controls are mechanic, there are no computer circuits which can be damaged by an electromagnetic pulse.

They have both. The KC-10A have CF-6-50C2/F-103-GE-200, E-4B are equipped with CF-6-50E2/F-103-GE-100, the VC-25A has CF-6-80C2B1/F-138-GE-200, and C-5M have the CF-6-80C2/F-138-GE-100 engines. The engine FADEC on the VC-25s is EMP hardened.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 22):
Since Boeing Witchita is closing I wonder who will do the heavy D check,

The current "D" checks (called Phase-4 inspection in the USAF) on the VC-25s is, and has always been performed at Boeing Everett.

When (If?) the new AF-1s enter service later this decade, the VC-25As will not be retired. They will be downgraded in their mission to C-25s, probibly with a different series letter (B?). They will have some equipment removed, but will continue on as trainers and VIP aircraft for lower ranking government and military officials (below the rank of POTUS and VPOTUS).
 
bennett123
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:37 pm

Strictly, we are talking about the VC25, (AF1 simply means the President is aboard).

When it does come to be replaced, it will not, IMO be a twin.

For one thing, if the Arabs and Japanese have VVIP B747, then the US will not have a "mere" twin, PERIOD.

There are only 2 options, (the B747-8, and the A380).

After the KC46 episode, it is safe to say that the A380 is a non starter.

The only real issue, is will it be based on the B747-8i or B747-8F.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 25):
The only real issue, is will it be based on the B747-8i or B747-8F.

It will be based on the B-747-8I because of its extended upper deck. The current VC-25As have the communications suite in the upper deck, but there is a need for additional equipment room and possibly a crew rest area.

There would be no need for the nose and aft cargo doors of the B-747-8F.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:55 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 26):
The current VC-25As have the communications suite in the upper deck,

Wonder with the extended upper deck if it would be possible to move the Presidential Suite up there? Or is the area too narrow?

bt
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kc135topboom
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 27):
Or is the area too narrow?

I believe it is considered to small/narrow. The President's private suit is on the main deck forward of the L1/R1 doors.
 
bennett123
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:31 pm

Besides, if you were the President would you want the pilots coming through your bedroom on the way to the toilet?.  
 
Max Q
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:54 am

So the VC25 has the -400 landing gear ?


What is the reason for this, a higher landing and / or maximum take off weight than the standard 833,000 pounds of the latest Classics ?
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747classic
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:21 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 18):
In this respect, older technology is much better, the more electronic / and / or software driven systems are installed in an Aircraft the more vulnerable it is to any kind of electronic interference, let alone EMP. The older systems are relatively immune to this problem, because of their mechanical simplicity.

In terms of redundancy, Four engines and four of everything else is priceless, staying on redundancy, having a Flight Engineer is also extremely valuable, allowing a professional to take care of technical issues downloading the Pilots to take care of flying the jet as their only priority.

With the benefit of the enormous extra power of the -400 engines married to the Classic -200 Airframe it is a very high performing machine

   These 2 unique aircraft are optimal suited for the job. To replace them with two or even more heavily modified 747-8I aircraft only satisfies the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude and will be the next unnecessary drain of the USAF budget, especially seen the huge remaining flight hour/ cycle count of these aircraft. IMO, a constant upgrade of the mission equipment will save a lot of money and will do the job perfectly.
The only issue will be the future spare part position of unique 747-200 parts. However, this issue can be solved easy at the moment by obtaining one of the not already scrapped 743/80C2B1 aircraft (scrap value extremely low). Most important is the availability of sufficient unique spare parts for the CF6-80C2B1 engine (fuel control and PMC spare parts will become rare in the near future). Most other -80C2 engine spare parts will be available for a long time and are still produced for the new built 767 aircraft and C-5M re-engine program.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20):
I don´t know what engines the USAF jumbos have (CF-6-50 or CF-6-80), but if you use an older CF-6-50 without FADEC, it is intrinsically EMP proof. Since all engine controls are mechanic, there are no computer circuits which can be damaged by an electromagnetic pulse

Both VC25A's are powered with CF6-80C2B1 engines. This is one of the first certified (non FADEC) variants of the -80C2 engine family.
The engine is controlled by a Woodward mechanical fuel control, with a supervisory digital control, called Power Management Control (PMC).
Engine control is still possible with PMC deactivated, but less accurate.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
Actually they burn no more fuel than the B-747-400. The VC-25As have the B-747-300 wing profile, and the B-747-400 landing gear and engines on a B-747-200 airframe.

- The VC-25A burns approx. 3-4% more fuel than the 744. (2-3% increased wingspan plus winglet and 1% because of non FADEC engine), but 9% less than the older E4B (CF6-50E2 powered).
- A 747-300 wing profile ? All 742 and 743 aircraft have the same wing profile. All 742 and 743 are capable of a MTOW of 833.000 lbs, if a wing 6 (increased strength) or higher is installed (most aircraft produced after L/N 271)
- AFAIK no 744 landing gear is installed, the stronger wheel assy and carbon brakes are only certified on the 744 and not available at the 742 (no STC available).

Quoting Max Q (Reply 30):
So the VC25 has the -400 landing gear ?
What is the reason for this, a higher landing and / or maximum take off weight than the standard 833,000 pounds of the latest Classics ?

No. The classic wing platform/fuselage combination is only certified up to a MTOW of 833.000 lbs. This maximum is also valid for the 744, if operated in the Domestic mode (-D) with the wingtip modified to "classic standard, despite the fact that the wing and landing gear is structural capable of higher weights.

[Edited 2012-02-23 01:32:05]
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Max Q
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:38 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 31):

No. The classic wing platform/fuselage combination is only certified up to a MTOW of 833.000 lbs. This maximum is also valid for the 744, if operated in the Domestic mode (-D) with the wingtip modified to "classic standard, despite the fact that the wing and landing gear is structural capable of higher weights.

Thanks 747Classic


Are you sure the VC25 has the -400 landing gear TBoom ?
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bennett123
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:54 pm

Would it need to be a B747-300 or would a B747-200 or B747-200SUD suffice.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/pf/pf_classic_back.html

Given that Boeing only built 81, and many of those are no longer flyable, or even in decent condition.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...104%&cat=%1&sorteer=datekey&page=1

Aviation Safety records 4 crashed, and at least 1 was broken up at Kemble. If I had access to all my records, then I am sure I would find many more scrapped or have sat in the desert for years.

If the USAF are looking for useable B747-300, then they had best get a move on.
 
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747classic
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 33):
Would it need to be a B747-300 or would a B747-200 or B747-200SUD suffice.

Preferably one of the remaining 743 aircraft with GE CF6-80C2B1 engines (only 7 built and some scrapped already), to obtain as much as possible engine related spare parts.

AFAIK Serial Numbers 24106, 24107 and 24108 are stored and are still available. I am not sure about the status of 24159, the rest (23721, 23722 and 24160) seems to be scrapped already.

[Edited 2012-02-23 13:25:15]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
bennett123
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:29 pm

http://airlinersindia.s4.bizhat.com/airlinersindia-post-107240.html

24159 VT-EPW, was scrapped at Bombay in 2011.

So that is out.

I had not realised that the 2 TG aircraft 23721/23722 had been scrapped.

The other 3, 24106/24107/24108 look more promising, although Cactuswings suggests that 24106, (which Airfleets shows at Roswll from 2008) had gone by 23/03/2010.
 
Thrust
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:43 pm

I can't believe it's a 742! It doesn't have the right General Electric engines. I always thought it was a 744 freighter converted to passenger use.
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kanban
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:49 am

When the time comes, it will be a 747-8I... but as discussed in so many threads (one every 6 months or so in one form or another) it will not be a used commercial airliner, a A380, or anything else. When? With economics the way they are and the robustness of the current planes, there is no hurry so look out in the 2018 - 2024 time frame.

It will be unique.. aerial refueling, missile and radar deterrents, self contained air stairs, special EMP wiring.. much of this is easier if done in the build stage.. yes we had to rewire the current birds after factory completion (but before outfitting) because someone didn't think EMP was important.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:03 pm

I can't see an AF1 replacement being a refurbed aircraft. I honestly don't see how it could be anything but a 747-8i.

The extended upper deck is intriguing to me though. Seems to me the comm center on the VC-25 could easily fit on the 748i forward the door. I visualize aft of the door could / would contain technology you'd find on the E4-B. War room, situation room, etc. Then there is the potential use of the "attic space" along with the extra floor space on the main deck.   

Regardless, I think the timing of this works in the 748i's advantage as well. It'll be in service for a few years for any teething problems to be addressed. The 747-400 didn't have that opportunity or we could have very well seen an AF! on the 747-400 platform.   
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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747classic
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:58 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 38):
I can't see an AF1 replacement being a refurbed aircraft

The secondhand 743/-80C2B1 aircraft, mentioned in replies 31 and on, is only to be used as a spare part provider to keep the two VC25 aircraft serviceable the next 10-20 years with minimal costs.
When purchased at short notice, it provides the opportunity to create a large pool of spare parts at a fraction of the costs to obtain the same , but then very rare and expensive, spare parts in a few years time.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 39):

Ah, gatcha. Thanks for that explanation.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:11 am

They should order 6 delivered for next year, with the size of the contingent that needs to fly to Hawaii, one can carry the family and reporters on the first plane, then Air Force 1 and the Decoy that carries the 4 limo's. Then a backup trio is needed.

After all, we almost ordered nearly 30 Marine 1 helo's as they often fly in packs of 6.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 30):
So the VC25 has the -400 landing gear ?


What is the reason for this, a higher landing and / or maximum take off weight than the standard 833,000 pounds of the latest Classics ?
Quoting Max Q (Reply 32):
Are you sure the VC25 has the -400 landing gear TBoom ?

Yes, and the VC-25s were upgraded during the late '90s to a MTOW of 875,000 lbs
 
Max Q
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 42):

Yes, and the VC-25s were upgraded during the late '90s to a MTOW of 875,000 lbs

Very interesting, that is a very heavy Classic, with the benefit of the stronger gear they must be able to land at the -400's
higher landing weight as well which must be useful as, according to the documentary I saw they always land with lots of fuel.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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747classic
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 42):
Yes, and the VC-25s were upgraded during the late '90s to a MTOW of 875,000 lbs

Can you prove this ?

IMO, It is very unlikely that the "classic wing platform (with no wingtip extension and winglets) is certified from 833.000 lbs to 875.000 lbs MTOW for only 2 aircraft.

Important to know is that both aircraft are officially civil certified by the FAA (747-2G4B) , incl. all STC's (not specified in detail for safety reasons).

The wing has to be strengthened heavily to increase the MTOW, no Boeing master-change for this modification is available AFAIK. The classic wing structure was already stretched to the limit at 833.000 lbs . Between 820.000 and 833.000 lbs the wing could even be limited by the specific gravity of the fuel in the wing tanks.

Even a real 744 converted to " domestic " configuration, with the outer part of the wing plus winglet removed (classic wing configuration) is limited to 833.000 lbs MTOW by the wing platform.

The landing weight can be increased, but this is also possible on most later built 747-200/300 aircraft. (mostly accomplished on freighters).

[Edited 2012-02-27 11:28:10]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:26 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
4 engines = 2x risk of uncontained failure

Sorry to nitpick but chance of uncontained failure is 1-((1-"Chance of failure in twin")^2) (very nearly twice though    )

Fred
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flightsimer
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 39):


I'm trying to remember back to the special made two or three years ago on the VC-25's/AF1 by either History or Discovery Channel. But in short, i remember them saying that if anything was thought to not be in a condition like it was brand new, they replaced it. So i don't see these 743's even being able to support the VC-25's.
Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
 
bennett123
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Sun May 06, 2012 4:06 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bobby Allison



It looks as if TF-ATJ is too far gone to be a useful source of spares for AF1.
 
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747classic
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Tue May 08, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 47):
It looks as if TF-ATJ is too far gone to be a useful source of spares for AF1.

AFAIK, the high value parts (engines, engine nose cowls, landing gears, some actuators, APU, etc) and unique GE CF6-80C2B1 related parts (MEC, PMC, engine dials, FFRATS etc ) are removed to serve as general spare parts, also the 744 style pylons are still visible at the picture.
The hull, incl. the complete cabin furnishing has only scrap (metal) value.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
bennett123
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RE: Replacing Air Force One-748?

Wed May 09, 2012 11:56 pm

Not sure I follow you.

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