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TripleDelta
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CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:45 am

As per an article in today's morning papers, the Croatian Defense Council will, over the next two to three months, decide on whether the country should dissolve its fighter wing, or prop-up the existing MiG-21 fleet until the economic situation improves and allows the purchase of new equipment.

In the case of the former, the article states that air policing would then be contracted out to the Italian and Hungarian AF. The cost of this arrangement has only been mentioned as Croatia's participation and financing of one or more NATO projects.

The latter option however - per the article the most likely scenario - offers two further possibilities. The first would involve the complete overhaul of four CroAF MiGs by Aerostar of Romania, as well as the purchase of four Romanian Lancers (there's no info on whether the four overhauled aircraft would be brought up to Lancer standards). The cost of this option is placed at around €20 million.

The second option would involve the purchase and modernization of eight MiGs from the Ukraine. The aircraft in question are Yemeni machines that had been overhauled in the Ukraine in 2008, but never taken up by the YAF, citing shoddy work done. While at €8 million by far the cheapest option, there are some problems with the jets' paperwork, which has been openly cited as "fishy". Apart from their dubious origin, the ownership of the jets is still not settled, with the YAF claiming the aircraft are still theirs, and the Ukrainian side claiming (and supporting with said fishy documents) that the jets had been delivered to the Ukraine back in 2003 by a Swiss company. The state of the aircraft themselves - as described by CroAF techs who'd inspected them - is said to be "satisfactory", though they did not get the chance to take them for a spin (the cause was said to be "bad weather").

The possibility of buying new jets - or at least used aircraft of a newer generation - is said to be next to none. The former option (which includes the F-16 Block 50, Gripen Classic and the Eurofighter) is valued at between €170 million and 1,24 billion, while the latter (which could have included the MiG-29, F-16 Block 15, Kfir and Mirage F1) at €90-270 million... both well outside the country's financial capability at this time.

So, we may still see the -21 plying European skies well into the latter half of the decade...  
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ebj1248650
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:36 am

Why not F-16As or F/A-18As? Surplus F-16s or Hornets would be a better bet, I'd think, and the tech support would be there too.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 1):
Why not F-16As or F/A-18As? Surplus F-16s or Hornets would be a better bet, I'd think, and the tech support would be there too.

The problem with both is that they'd cause more (financial) problems than they're worth. Most of the CroAF's fast jet support infrastructure is still based on the old Soviet system, dictated by the old Soviet jets it operates. Switching to these F-16s or 18s would involve costly retraining of air and ground crews, retooling, resupply, development new tactics and operational procedures and so on - all for jets that would serve for only a couple of years as a stop-gap measure (and jets that don't have enough service life left in them to be a permanent measure). Then the same thing would have to be repeated for any potential new type, increasing long-term costs beyond what it would cost to buy new jets outright.

Exactly the same issue had also killed the German Phantom deal - even though the Luftwaffe was willing to pretty much donate the jets, the sheer costs associated with them (costs nearly equivalent to introducing a modern 4th generation aircraft) drove the deal into the ground. In the end, the MoD had calculated that no used type - East or West - matches the cost effectiveness of a few old -21s... (which naturally presumes that the economic situation will improve in coming years and the acquisition of a brand new aircraft will be viable).

EDIT: the predominant feeling here now is that the MoD had pretty much made up its mind that if anything is to be bought soon, it'll be a -21. The point of contention is from whom... India, Russia, Ukraine and Romania have all been suggested so far, but we'll have to wait and see. It's not altogether impossible that the MoD suddenly decides on a completely different option  Smile.

[Edited 2012-03-08 04:21:02]
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:57 pm

Well it seems sooner or later Croatia will have to move away from Soviet system to a Western/NATO one anyhow. They are a full member of NATO after-all so things like interoperability and common system are key.
 
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 3):
Well it seems sooner or later Croatia will have to move away from Soviet system to a Western/NATO one anyhow. They are a full member of NATO after-all so things like interoperability and common system are key.

While this is very much true (and has been coming along nicely in other branches of the armed forces), such a move for the AF's fighter fleet is considered to be prohibitively expensive at this time and in this economic climate - especially if rushed as part of a stop-gap measure. Western standards and NATO interoperability will be achieved anyway if/when Croatia buys new hardware in a few years time... and given the limited contribution that the CroAF's single fighter wing can currently provide (or will be able to provide over the next 4-5 years), there's no real need to hurry the switch along if other options exist.

And when you look at it, the only NATO mission that CroAF fighters can perform given current budget and logistics constraints - air policing - can be done equally well with a MiG-21 as with a Typhoon or Gripen or F-16  .
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 4):
air policing

What is the int'l/military definition of "air policing?"
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 5):
What is the int'l/military definition of "air policing?"

The short NATO definition is using military aircraft to protect the integrity of NATO airspace. In peacetime practice this mostly translates into intercepting and identifying unresponsive and/or unknown aircraft (as well as aircraft that have diverted from their planned route without clearance), escorting said aircraft if necessary, identifying and checking diplomatic & state flights and so on - all the way up to armed patrolling of airspace during high-risk events (such as the World Economic Forum and various major sport events).

http://www.aco.nato.int/page142085426.aspx
http://www.aco.nato.int/page136314.aspx
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:06 am

Sure Croatia must have a way to fulfil its air policing task. But nowadays, for small countries which are overflown from end to end in minutes, it seems "old-fashioned" that every single country has its own assets. The easy way is to do like Slovenia and Albania - buy the service from friendly neighbors.

Several times the Royal Danish Air Force has done air policing for the three Baltic countries, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. It's done with a couple of F-16 from a base in Lithuania.

But if Croatia wants to do it in-house, then what's the point using combat planes? A feasible radar, the special communication equipment and a camera is easily installed in a biz jet.

A few well used, second hand Learjets can be had for a bargain and can be maintained forever for a small fraction of fifty years old MiG-21s. And they can be used for several other tasks such as ambulance plane, VIP transport and such.

Geography tells us that should something stray into Croatian air space, then it has already been spotted by friendly neighbors. And if it hasn't, then no Mach 2 (or even Mach 3) fighter will catch up before it is out of Croatia anyway. And I am sure I am right when assuming that Croatia has no intention to be part in any air war (for which a handful of MiG-21s would be no use anyway).

So biz jets will do the observation task as well as anything else. And they will do so for decades after the MiGs have fallen apart or are badly needing another expensive overhaul. Maybe a few neighbor countries would buy the service from Croatia instead of where they buy it today?
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:00 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 7):
Sure Croatia must have a way to fulfil its air policing task. But nowadays, for small countries which are overflown from end to end in minutes, it seems "old-fashioned" that every single country has its own assets. The easy way is to do like Slovenia and Albania - buy the service from friendly neighbors.

Several times the Royal Danish Air Force has done air policing for the three Baltic countries, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. It's done with a couple of F-16 from a base in Lithuania.

As far as I understand it, the MoD is trying to avoid this option specifically because of Slovenian experiences (though it is still on the table as a realistic option). In their case - with air policing provided by Italy and Hungary - the deal is said to be enormously expensive with very little to be gained, maybe several flights a year. Some informal estimates heard over the years even suggest that for Slovenia external air policing has come out nearly as expensive as operating a couple of jets itself... though the validity of this claim is hard to confirm.

Another point that the MoD is keen to stress is that, unlike Slovenia, Croatia already has an existing and operational (sic) fighter wing - and critically the crews and experience to go with it. While few remain actively flying, there are still significant cores of pilots within the AF with combat experience from the 90s civil war, and the MoD argues that it would be a great loss to let that experience (and the lessons learned) fade away... and even though this argument is used to fight the AF's corner, they do have a valid point.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 7):
But if Croatia wants to do it in-house, then what's the point using combat planes? A feasible radar, the special communication equipment and a camera is easily installed in a biz jet.

A few well used, second hand Learjets can be had for a bargain and can be maintained forever for a small fraction of fifty years old MiG-21s. And they can be used for several other tasks such as ambulance plane, VIP transport and such.

Geography tells us that should something stray into Croatian air space, then it has already been spotted by friendly neighbors. And if it hasn't, then no Mach 2 (or even Mach 3) fighter will catch up before it is out of Croatia anyway. And I am sure I am right when assuming that Croatia has no intention to be part in any air war (for which a handful of MiG-21s would be no use anyway).

The key problem here is that while this could work in practice, on paper it is no good at all (ironically). Had the issue been preserving the integrity of Croatian civil airspace alone, a high-performance unarmed aircraft could very well do the trick; however, the issue here is protecting and preserving the integrity of NATO airspace as well, which - as far as I understand - requires armed military aircraft able to engage intruders during wartime.

Another problem is that while the Learjet (for example) has stellar climb performance for a civil jet, it's not near enough that of a military type specifically designed for the job. It is true that in many situations this doesn't matter all that much - as you have mentioned, an unidentified aircraft would surely be spotted by some of the country's neighbors, giving ample warning and enough time to scramble a LJ that could meet the aircraft at the border and escort it through the country.

However, problems start if an airliner looses comms, deviates from its route or suffers an emergency within Croatia. The most frequented airways run the length of the country, giving stretches from 300 km (Northern Croatia to the border with Serbia) to nearly 500 km (Istria to the Montenegrin border) with typical flight times of between 20 and 40 minutes - long enough for a supersonic QRA fighter to scramble and intercept, but of questionable length for an LJ to climb 30-35,000 ft all while trying to catch up with a target that's moving at or above its own maximum speed.

Granted, this doesn't happen all that often and on its own doesn't warrant a full-blown fighter. A better solution I think could be the KAI F/A-50 - it's cheaper to buy and operate than a "classic" fighter, it has just enough performance while still being supersonic, it can serve on paper as a combat aircraft and still be used for day-to-day training. If anything - given that it's one of only two modern supersonic trainers - it can also be used for joint training with other NATO countries  .
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:50 am

Here's a curveball,

Get someone like the Thunderjet guys to base themselves in Croatia flying Lightenings, Hunters or Canberra's. They might even incorporate the Mig 21's into their squadron. Between Croatia and Slovenia they could easily afford to sponsor a private commercial firm already in existence flying legacy fighters for fun to move and fulfill the policing requirement as part of their ongoing operations. Turn a military funding pit it into a tourist attraction.

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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:35 am

Subsonic yes, but since trainers and bizjets are already mentioned, any other misgivings about Aero Vodochody's L-159 ALCA filling the role?

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Acquisition and operation costs will likely be low, not too sure about upkeep. Performance may not be up there...one gets what one pays for. Besides, the manufacturer is just next door in case there is a problem.  

However, I agree that KAI's TA-50 would be a good, albeit costlier choice. Don't know how YAK-130 could fit in the political scheme of things.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting spudh (Reply 9):
Get someone like the Thunderjet guys to base themselves in Croatia flying Lightenings, Hunters or Canberra's. They might even incorporate the Mig 21's into their squadron.

One could only hope... I bet this would be a bigger tourist attraction than the Adriatic coast .

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 10):
Subsonic yes, but since trainers and bizjets are already mentioned, any other misgivings about Aero Vodochody's L-159 ALCA filling the role?

As an "interceptor", it's problem is still speed. Even though it is faster than most smaller bizjets, it would still have a hard time climbing and catching up with a stray airliner within the confines of Croatia.

Assuming that a supersonic trainer would also replace the CroAF's PC-9s in addition to providing air policing, another potential disadvantage of the L-159 is that it cannot be used as a trainer (unless the B model goes into production), necessitating that the AF keep its PC-9 fleet active. Then you again end up with two separate types that basically each have only one purpose, which drives costs up. Admittedly not near the levels of operating a full-blown fighter, but still above those of operating a single type suitable for both duties (in the scope needed by the Croatian AF).

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 10):
However, I agree that KAI's TA-50 would be a good, albeit costlier choice. Don't know how YAK-130 could fit in the political scheme of things.

Hm, forgot about the Yak  . However, if the cancelled fighter tender is anything to go by, the 130 would have quite a mountain to climb. The MiG-35, despite its very enticing offset package and being preferred by CroAF crews, had lost out pretty early in the competition because of various political and operational issues. Key points that were brought up had included the political ramifications of a NATO member state buying Russian hardware (especially when there are Western alternatives available), the lack of interoperability with other NATO types and the limited choice of armament, which was exclusively of Russian origin.

A more suitable - but again more expensive - alternative is the M-346. Almost the same aircraft, but developed and equipped to NATO standards... and given the industrial and economic ties between Italy and Croatia, Aermacchi would probably be content to shift a few examples this way  .

What is the price difference between the Yak-130 and the M-346?
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:11 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 2):
Exactly the same issue had also killed the German Phantom deal - even though the Luftwaffe was willing to pretty much donate the jets, the sheer costs associated with them (costs nearly equivalent to introducing a modern 4th generation aircraft)

Wow did not know that Germany has offered Phantoms, would have been nice to see them fly for another few years instead of scrapping them now.....
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting columba (Reply 12):
Wow did not know that Germany has offered Phantoms, would have been nice to see them fly for another few years instead of scrapping them now.....

The idea was first mentioned publicly about a year ago  . The topic was known to resurface briefly since then, but nothing had been heard of it for last couple of months...

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...hantoms-to-replace-mig-21s-354585/
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
The possibility of buying new jets - or at least used aircraft of a newer generation - is said to be next to none.

That rules out the TA-50, and also German Phantoms even if they come for free - it's just too much machine to maintain. (And in a couple of years time you will have to buy spares in Iran).

On such a strapped budget the market is very slim, beyond keep "painting" the old MiGs.

One possibility might be the old Swiss F-5s? The Austrians rented some while awaiting their Gripens. Where are those F-5s today? I have heard that they were as good as new - very well kept by the Swiss Air Force (but then I think that I heard that from a Swiss source).

Otherwise, you mentioned yourself old F-16 Block 15. The Americans may still have such old birds in storage in good condition, and they might offer them on a tight budget. Just don't think that those planes are comparable to new - or old and updated F-16s when talking combat. They can't carry the modern weapons. And maintenance will be very expensive for a small fleet when done in-house. But maybe Greece will be happy to help with that.

Pilot training is a very important issue when choosing. Again, in-house isn't realistic on this small scale. With F-5 or F-16, leave a plane or two behind on a US training base, and tell the USAF to train your pilots all way when they know what is up and down in a C152.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 14):
That rules out the TA-50, and also German Phantoms even if they come for free - it's just too much machine to maintain. (And in a couple of years time you will have to buy spares in Iran).

Indeed, I'd suggested the FA-50 as a mid-to-long term solution - but not an immediate one. Cheaper than a conventional fighter (with the added bonus of replacing the PC-9 fleet), the funds for it could be made available much sooner, so it could enter service earlier and reduce the time that the old (and future) MiGs would need to be patched up.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 14):

One possibility might be the old Swiss F-5s? The Austrians rented some while awaiting their Gripens. Where are those F-5s today? I have heard that they were as good as new - very well kept by the Swiss Air Force (but then I think that I heard that from a Swiss source).

Otherwise, you mentioned yourself old F-16 Block 15. The Americans may still have such old birds in storage in good condition, and they might offer them on a tight budget. Just don't think that those planes are comparable to new - or old and updated F-16s when talking combat. They can't carry the modern weapons. And maintenance will be very expensive for a small fleet when done in-house. But maybe Greece will be happy to help with that.

The problem with both solutions is that the costs of retraining the crews and retooling the support system are considered too high for a simple interim solution - before we even get to maintenance. As I'd mentioned before, the AF would have to switch hurriedly from the old Soviet to the Western system, retool and restock on spares, retrain and reorganize - and then do the same thing all over again in a few years time if/when new jets arrive.

While this is all perfectly possible - as Italian F-16s have shown - a solution like this requires funds which the CroAF is believed to be unwilling to spend... or even have (especially when they're haggling over 30 year old jets that cost the same as a well-equipped bizprop   ). Another problem is that if such a deal were negotiated, it would set the CroAF pretty far back financially, delaying the purchase of new jets and leaving the short-term interim solution to become a medium-term measure. If the interim jets were of a generation and capability higher than the MiG-21, that would be okay, since they could then be expected to last longer in service... but for period jets, the economics are questionable...

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 14):
Pilot training is a very important issue when choosing. Again, in-house isn't realistic on this small scale. With F-5 or F-16, leave a plane or two behind on a US training base, and tell the USAF to train your pilots all way when they know what is up and down in a C152.

Training shouldn't be a problem. The CroAF already has a core of both experienced and younger MiG-21 pilots, so training for any short-to-medium term aircraft would likely boil down to just a type conversion and tactics rethink.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 11):
A more suitable - but again more expensive - alternative is the M-346. Almost the same aircraft, but developed and equipped to NATO standards... and given the industrial and economic ties between Italy and Croatia, Aermacchi would probably be content to shift a few examples this way

I intentionally left out the Master which, with wins in Israel and Singapore, will have its advocates. And yes, Italy is next door, the Czechs are two doors up...my bad.  .

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 11):
What is the price difference between the Yak-130 and the M-346?

Unconfirmed figures put it at $15M for the Yak-130 and about $20M for the M-346.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 14):
One possibility might be the old Swiss F-5s? The Austrians rented some while awaiting their Gripens. Where are those F-5s today?

Reports say the US is buying back most of those.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 16):
Unconfirmed figures put it at $15M for the Yak-130 and about $20M for the M-346.

Hm, you're going to feel the difference between them with a dozen airframes...
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:32 am

Mig 21 replacement and the construction of a new terminal at Zagreb Pleso seem to be a never ending Croatian story.

For me, second hand Mig 21s seems to be the only option for Croatia at this time and also a reasonable one. I think it would be a total shame to either spend 1 billion (ish) on a new fighter type in this current climate or totally scrap the fighter component of the CroAF.

But I believe it is important for Croatia to maintain a capability to move one day towards a modern air force and eventually to one which can field 2 to 3 squadrons of multi roll fighters. Despite being a member of Nato Croatia has to ask herself, if the shit really hits the fan again, will a third nation truly come to the aid of Croatia and put their own personnel at risk. History shows us that the answer is not likely unless the third country has their interest (financially or in terms of security) at risk. And, with nations all over the world limiting and reducing their military capabilities, especially the ones in Europe, will a third country have the available capability to defend Croatia in the time of a wider war or if there capability is already stretched due to other employments? In this scenario I do not think Croatia would be a priority to Nato and the wider western world so the requirement for a capable fighter force for Croatia should not be underestimated.

One thing I would like to see if Croatia does purchase more Mig 21s is an improvement on the offensive capability of the type. How effective can the R-60 still be in today’s counter measure environment?
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:34 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 18):
Mig 21 replacement and the construction of a new terminal at Zagreb Pleso seem to be a never ending Croatian story.

Politics and money - always an unhealthy mix. However, the ZAG terminal issue seems to be dominated more by behind-the-scenes maneuvering, while the -21 replacement by a genuine lack of funds.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 18):
Despite being a member of Nato Croatia has to ask herself, if the shit really hits the fan again, will a third nation truly come to the aid of Croatia and put their own personnel at risk.

We're quite a long way from shooting at each other again down here.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 18):
One thing I would like to see if Croatia does purchase more Mig 21s is an improvement on the offensive capability of the type. How effective can the R-60 still be in today’s counter measure environment?

Why would the MiGs need improved offensive firepower - and conceivably who would they use it against?
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 19):
We're quite a long way from shooting at each other again down here.

Of course peace and stability will be enhanced with countries in the region joining major European trade orgainsations and military alliances which Croatia has or is about to complete and Serbia (Croatian most obvious possible 'shooting' opponent) to do so in the next decade but there is a cinder box in the region called Bosnia and Herzegovina. I am all for a unified BiH but Republica Srbska obviously has an ambition to break away and join main land Serbia and with the nationalist party still the most popular one in Serbia they have political and popular support for this. Former Croatian President Stipe Mesic said before he left office that an attempt like this would lead to Croatian military intervention.

The issue with Kosovo still has the potential to lead to conflict. Again a change of government in Serbia to a more nationalistic one could force a set a circumstances which lead to open conflict in that region. We have already seen a number of people killed in the past few months in clashes between opposing groups in Kosovo.

Events such as this usually set off a type of domino effect which with instability in the region could directly or indirectly affect Croatia and her economy. This is why in my opinion a moderate but well equipped military, including a modern fighter force is actually a good investment for Croatia.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 19):
Why would the MiGs need improved offensive firepower - and conceivably who would they use it against?

I understand that the region is nowhere near conflict and the above paragraphs I wrote are an extreme scenario but Croatia cannot be naive and ignore that Serbia has R-73 equipped Mig-29s. Even if just 2 are airworthy, Croatian R-60 equipped Mig-21s will have absolutely no chance and would surrender control of the skies quite easily. The scenario which worries me the most is the one which involves BiH.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:22 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 20):
Of course peace and stability will be enhanced with countries in the region joining major European trade orgainsations and military alliances which Croatia has or is about to complete and Serbia (Croatian most obvious possible 'shooting' opponent) to do so in the next decade but there is a cinder box in the region called Bosnia and Herzegovina. I am all for a unified BiH but Republica Srbska obviously has an ambition to break away and join main land Serbia and with the nationalist party still the most popular one in Serbia they have political and popular support for this. Former Croatian President Stipe Mesic said before he left office that an attempt like this would lead to Croatian military intervention.

The issue with Kosovo still has the potential to lead to conflict. Again a change of government in Serbia to a more nationalistic one could force a set a circumstances which lead to open conflict in that region. We have already seen a number of people killed in the past few months in clashes between opposing groups in Kosovo.

Please take no offense, but your views of Serbia - apparently formed under the influence of nationalist Croatian media that regularly spews out nonsense like this - bear very little resemblance to the Serbia that actually is. While it is undeniable that Kosovo and Republika Srpska are hotspots for political problems in the Balkans - and that nationalism is on the rise across the peninsula - they are nowhere near serious enough to cause any sort of military action that would spill outside their borders... the days of Milošević, Izetbegović and Tuđman are long gone.

And do you honestly think that Serbia, surrounded by (and up to its neck in) NATO members, burdened with an aggressor image from previous Balkan wars, struggling with a shoddy economy, and on its way to join the EU and fully normalize relations with its ex-Yu neighbors, would attack a NATO and EU member state and risk 1999 all over again over an internal political squabble and some minor sabre rattling? This is Serbia, not North Korea.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 20):
I understand that the region is nowhere near conflict and the above paragraphs I wrote are an extreme scenario but Croatia cannot be naive and ignore that Serbia has R-73 equipped Mig-29s. Even if just 2 are airworthy, Croatian R-60 equipped Mig-21s will have absolutely no chance and would surrender control of the skies quite easily. The scenario which worries me the most is the one which involves BiH.

I do not want to sound rude, but please read back what you have written. You are proposing that Croatia - at great expense - modernizes 40 year old aircraft to carry expensive high tech weaponry that it will never use against an imaginary attack from an under-equipped air force that (like the CroAF) will fall out of the sky on its own well before getting into firing range?

This is a bit much even for the usual diaspora fear mongering.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 21):
I do not want to sound rude, but please read back what you have written. You are proposing that Croatia - at great expense - modernizes 40 year old aircraft to carry expensive high tech weaponry that it will never use against an imaginary attack from an under-equipped air force that (like the CroAF) will fall out of the sky on its own well before getting into firing range?

In your original post you mentioned the possibility that the replacement Mig-21s may come from Romania and could be of the Lancer type. If I remember correctly the Lancer is R-73 missile capable so why would it be so expensive to include this type of offensive fire power to the deal especially since you’re of the opinion that 'air policing' by Italy or Hungary might be an even more expensive option for Croatia?

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 21):
Please take no offense, but your views of Serbia - apparently formed under the influence of nationalist Croatian media that regularly spews out nonsense like this

Here I have to take offense because you are making assumptions about me personally which are not correct and when I clearly only have a different view on if and why Croatia needs to have a capable air force. I mention Serbia because for others on this forum it is the most obvious way to illustrate my point. I was trying to be as clear as possible that I do not believe a war in the region is likely especially in the short term but I will admit that I may have painted a bleak picture of Serbia which is not reflective of the current political climate.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 21):
This is a bit much even for the usual diaspora fear mongering.

This is a bit harsh; remember the Diaspora did a lot for Croatia during the war years.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 22):
In your original post you mentioned the possibility that the replacement Mig-21s may come from Romania and could be of the Lancer type. If I remember correctly the Lancer is R-73 missile capable so why would it be so expensive to include this type of offensive fire power to the deal especially since you’re of the opinion that 'air policing' by Italy or Hungary might be an even more expensive option for Croatia?

The same question still stands - why would the CroAF throw away good money (of which there is very little at the best of times) on weapons it has no one to fire at? Especially since the "new" MiGs, whatever their source, would be an interim measure and would be replaced - if all goes well - in 5-7 years time by Western aircraft... aircraft that couldn't use the proposed missiles anyway.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 22):
Here I have to take offense because you are making assumptions about me personally which are not correct and when I clearly only have a different view on if and why Croatia needs to have a capable air force. I mention Serbia because for others on this forum it is the most obvious way to illustrate my point.

By using an irrelevant, inaccurate, nonsensical - and frankly quite offensive - stereotype?

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 22):
I was trying to be as clear as possible that I do not believe a war in the region is likely especially in the short term but I will admit that I may have painted a bleak picture of Serbia which is not reflective of the current political climate.

Bleak it definitely was (with my emphasis added):

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 20):
I understand that the region is nowhere near conflict and the above paragraphs I wrote are an extreme scenario but Croatia cannot be naive and ignore that Serbia has R-73 equipped Mig-29s

Other than as a factual statement about the Serbian AF's order of battle, I fail to see how this is relevant to the re-equipment of the Croatian Air Force - unless you hold a firm belief that a new cross-border war is going to erupt soon.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 22):
This is a bit harsh; remember the Diaspora did a lot for Croatia during the war years.

Granted. But the war is over, and the tainted views of some of the diaspora on how the country should be run are now doing more bother than good.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:34 pm

How are talks going with Slovenia to make a joined effort in air policing and QRA?
I believe they have a basic pilot training program with their PC-9s and I guess sharing the cost of a single squadron that could cover both countries would make a lot of sense. Why not team up with Hungary as well? I believe they are leasing their Gripen's which could be more economical than buying. I also understood the offset package with Sweden's industry including interesting options for the Navy and Army was the most promising one.

I hope it will be India, if they choose to buy "new" MiG-21s. The Bison is a very nimble and capable machine (and exotic!).

Nevertheless, I think everyone agrees that the last thing Croatia needs now is brand new fighters.
Are the canadair fire-fighter aircraft replaced already?

I've been in one of the new Mi-171s which looked very nice BTW.

[Edited 2012-03-14 13:37:30]
 
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 24):
How are talks going with Slovenia to make a joined effort in air policing and QRA? I believe they have a basic pilot training program with their PC-9s and I guess sharing the cost of a single squadron that could cover both countries would make a lot of sense.

All quiet so far. Nothing was heard of the issue for almost a year now... but it seems that the MoD is going through its options, so it's probably not discounted yet  .

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 24):
I also understood the offset package with Sweden's industry including interesting options for the Navy and Army was the most promising one.

The contents of the package had changed from time to time, but I believe it had included a sizable shipment of brand new RBS-15 missiles, in use by both the Navy and Army.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 24):
I hope it will be India, if they choose to buy "new" MiG-21s. The Bison is a very nimble and capable machine (and exotic!).

So far, four MiG-21 options have been mentioned (though not at the same time):
  • 1. Bisons
  • 2. newer bis models from Russia which would be modernized
  • 3. the Yemeni examples currently in Ukraine, also to be modernized (the aircraft themselves are the same vintage as CroAF examples)
  • 4. Lancers (no info on which version)
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 24):
Are the canadair fire-fighter aircraft replaced already?

They were never meant to be replaced - only complemented by the AT-802s. There are six aircraft in the fleet, with the last delivered in 2010 I believe (coded 811).

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 24):
I've been in one of the new Mi-171s which looked very nice BTW.

I like the cockpit... it's such a fantastic merge of East and West . You have your maslo and toplivo gauges right next to a Garmin GPS unit and Bendix King radios .
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:08 pm

TripleDelta,

It's always nice to read your informed posts. This was a very good read. Thanks.

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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:50 am

Damn, I was just trying to get my view across. Do you react to everyone this way who does not agree with your point of view?

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 23):
By using an irrelevant, inaccurate, nonsensical - and frankly quite offensive - stereotype?

I find this statement offensive. I do not want to dwell too much into politics but Serbia has to at first admit to the mistakes it made in the 90s (4 wars for example) and apologies. Instead they are doing the complete opposite and are trying to not only portray themselves as completely innocent of any wrong doing in the 90s but also as victims including victims of 'Croatian aggression'

Peace and stability in the region....., do we want this? Yes of course but any nation with the slightest lick of dignitary will not allow history to be re-written and affirmed by YOUR above paragraph by saying my comments were offensive and of a serotype nature like as if the 90s never happened and when all I said that if a conflict was to involve Croatia again in the region the most plausible opponent would be Serbia. I mean give me a break! Can we not mention things like this anymore? I bet I could find on this forum people taking about the possibility of war between Iran and Israel, are we going to stop this discussion too because someone might find it offensive? I could go on but out of respect of this forum I will not.

Just so you know I am now in Australia as a result of the war.





Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 24):
I believe they have a basic pilot training program with their PC-9s and I guess sharing the cost of a single squadron that could cover both countries would make a lot of sense. Why not team up with Hungary as well?

I believe we will start to see models such as this form within Europe and makes complete fiscal sense for all the countries you mentioned. At the very least if Slovenia wants to go the way of a fighter force in the future, a joint venture with Croatia is really a no brainer.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 24):
I also understood the offset package with Sweden's industry including interesting options for the Navy and Army was the most promising one.

An offset package which If Croatia decides to go it alone would be of great benefit to a country like Croatia by helping to boost the industrial sector. This if negotiated well could attribute to increasing Croatian GDP something which Croatia needs to look at doing. Also, some of the offset packages have been offered up 100% of the initial value of the order, in other words virtually waving away the initial fee for the aircraft. (The operating costs are still there though).
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:14 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 27):
Damn, I was just trying to get my view across. Do you react to everyone this way who does not agree with your point of view?

Your opinion I have nothing against - it's the delivery I find appalling. The war had ended 17 years ago. Many people in Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia have accepted the conflict as a tragic historic event and moved on, repairing and consolidating relations between all the countries of ex-Yu - indeed, in some cases you could not even tell that two decades ago we were lobbing shells at each other. I dare say even that there's a spark of that old spirit of camaraderie that was common back in former Yugoslavia...

And I, as a person who'd been here for the entire war, who'd lost family and friends and spent the better part of his childhood living to the rhythm of air raid sirens (and I was "cosy" some distance from the front), find it offensive to see someone - who wasn't here to see the atrocities that were committed by all sides, someone who still doesn't live here and interact daily with people from ex-Yu republics - throw a spanner into our efforts with barely-concealed references to Serbia as the "Evil Empire", ready and willing to attack Croatia yet again. It's this "victim mentality" and dwelling on the past that keeps the wounds of the war open instead of healing them and moving the issue onwards.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 27):
I find this statement offensive. I do not want to dwell too much into politics but Serbia has to at first admit to the mistakes it made in the 90s (4 wars for example) and apologies. Instead they are doing the complete opposite and are trying to not only portray themselves as completely innocent of any wrong doing in the 90s but also as victims including victims of 'Croatian aggression'

And pouring fuel on the fire is the way to go? Responding to a clear verbal provocation - intended to do nothing more than irk - by going up in arms? With an attitude like that, why do you consider Croatia to hold a higher moral ground than Serbia if it replies to school ground bullying as if it were a life or death situation?

The other issue I have with the quoted paragraph is that it's not even completely true, and blights an entire population (and government) with select ideas of vocal Serbian radicals. While it still does have some way to go on the issue, Serbia has started making amends for the war; and a significant number of people on the ground and in the ruling echelons accept the denial of the war and its atrocities the same way that Germans accept the denial of the Holocaust. I was quite shocked to be honest to come across Serbs on my travels who openly - and with an obvious feeling of shame - apologized for the war... people who, like me, were in primary school when the conflict started, and had no part in its cause.

Plus, a bonus question - is a set of apologies really worth the delaying of the normalization of relations between our countries? I say not - and am not alone on this issue in Croatia.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 27):
Peace and stability in the region....., do we want this? Yes of course but any nation with the slightest lick of dignitary will not allow history to be re-written and affirmed by YOUR above paragraph by saying my comments were offensive and of a serotype nature like as if the 90s never happened and when all I said that if a conflict was to involve Croatia again in the region the most plausible opponent would be Serbia.

Nobody said the 90s never happened - I said that the 90s were in the 90s... that is, in the past, and we are in the 2010s. Yet your veiled stabs at the "most plausible opponent" certainly bring back the spirit of the 90s - contradicting your claim that "any nation with the slightest lick of dignitary will not allow history to be re-written".

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 27):
I bet I could find on this forum people taking about the possibility of war between Iran and Israel, are we going to stop this discussion too because someone might find it offensive?

That conflict is plausible - if experts are to be believed, it's only a matter of time, therefore it bears discussion since it influences us all. Croatia and Serbia going to war again - especially in a 90s mentality - is not plausible by a long shot, and only unnecessarily opens old wounds.


Mods, my apologies for going wildly off topic  .

EDIT: typos

[Edited 2012-03-15 01:32:22]
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:55 am

To bring the discussion by to topic, I've found an expanded version of the article I'd mentioned in the opening post: http://www.jutarnji.hr/kupit-cemo-po...am-je-sve-drugo-preskupo/1012242/. It is in Croatian, but I've translated some of the more interesting bits:

Quote:
The Ukrainian side had delivered documents to the Croatian MoD which should prove that the aircraft are in its ownership. As we've learned however, the documents are highly suspect. They state that the aircraft had been imported into the Ukraine on 29 January 2003 by the Swiss company "Scimitar Systems SA". But, according to available information, this company had been founded in Luzerne seven months after it had allegedly imported the aircraft. From the documents sent, it is not possible to discern the origin of the aircraft.

Furthermore, it is unclear why would a country import these aircraft, wait five years to have them overhauled, paint them in the colors of another country and then wait a few more years to sell them. According to available information, the Ukraine is selling them for about a million euros per aircraft. Our sources claim that the price is ridiculously low, which points to the conclusion that there's something wrong with the aircraft. The Ukrainians are also offering a large collection of spare parts to go along with the aircraft, parts which were allegedly produced back in the USSR. Should it buy these aircraft, Croatia would have to install the necessary communication equipment to make them compatible with its own MiGs. Despite this information, the CroAF is, as we've learned, seriously considering this option.
Quote:
The possibility of contracting the surveillance of Croatian airspace to NATO was mentioned several months ago. At the time, the Office of the President has stated that in any dilemma which would involve military jets and the payout of pensions, the president would be in favor of the latter options. In practice this would mean that the airspace would be patrolled by Italian and Hungarian military aircraft.

Croatia has also been offered other options for used aircraft of a newer generation. For example, Russia is offering 12 used MiG-29s for 90 million [euros]. Israeli military officials have, during the president's recent visit to Israel, shown their Kfir C-10 Block 60 (a development of the Mirage) to General Drago Lovric, commander of the Croatian military HQ.

The general offer for 12 aircraft is 235 million euros. Dassault of France is offering 12 of its Mirage F1CTs for 270 million euros. However, all of these are unattainable options for Croatia - as are those involving the acquisition of new aircraft. In this category, the cheapest offer is by Sweden's SAAB, who is offering the lease of 12 aircraft for 750 million euros. The USA, for the same number of F-16, is asking for 1,03 billion euros, while the same from Eurofighter would cost 1,26 billion.
Quote:
Political leaders have to come to a decision by the end of this year, since next year all 10 MiG-21s owned by the CroAF must be grounded.

It's worth noting that of those ten, only a handful are fully operational at any one time.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 27):
I find this statement offensive. I do not want to dwell too much into politics but Serbia has to at first admit to the mistakes it made in the 90s (4 wars for example) and apologies. Instead they are doing the complete opposite and are trying to not only portray themselves as completely innocent of any wrong doing in the 90s but also as victims including victims of 'Croatian aggression'

mig21umd,

I'm not sure what's the source of your information, but this simply is not true and your views are extremely biased. Here's one source that contradicts what you wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11689153 There are many more re: Bosnia for example. Serbia has its share of blame for the 90s, but let's not pretend to be naive and say that Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia do not.

You should also check your facts and figure out how come hundreds of thousands of Serbs who lived in Croatia prior to 1995 live in Serbia, Germany, and the USA today. They did not move willingly or for economic reasons. There are too many sources to corroborate this.

The reason why we still have no flights between ZAG and BEG and why there is so much hatred is the mentality that you demonstrate here, and to make things even worse you demonstrate it from 10+K miles away from the region.

Maybe you should concentrate on this topic since you know more about MiG21 than politics.

BEG2IAH

[Edited 2012-03-15 09:19:12]
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:30 am

Found a bit of additional news in the papers this morning: in an effort to reduce expenses, the armed forces have announced reductions, layoffs and equipment changes in all its branches, including the Air Force. As per the article, the CroAF is planning the sale of 2-4 PC-9s and both of its An-32s - which I must admit had surprised me, given that they're always out and about, clocking up a decent amount of flight hours, and were the only AF assets that could be flown to Afghanistan to support the Croatian contingent (and the only fixed-wing transports in the country). The modernization of the fighter fleet has made it through the cuts though....
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:26 am

Just to sidetrack the MiG-21 issue a bit further, it looks like the MoD will indeed buy some new equipment next year - the PC-12M Spectre(s), intended to partially replace the two An-32s set for sale (Link in Croatian)  .

The aircraft - whose hourly costs are stated as an agreeable USD 530/hour - would be used for short-range troop transport (supplementing the Mi-171 fleet), as well as special forces parachute jumps, previously done from the An-32.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:22 am

Looks like the MiGs really are here to stay. According to this article (in Croatian), the President - acting as Supreme Commander - and his cabinet have sided with the proposal of keeping the existing fleet flying until a proper replacement can be bought. The Minister of Defense is also known to support this idea.

In view of the recommendations of MiG technicians who had inspected the entire fleet (both grounded and airworthy), half the aircraft will be scrapped and half overhauled, most likely by Aerostar of Romania (who had already overhauled part of the fleet in 2003). It is said that this deal also opens the door to quick acquisition of several Lancers - eight single seaters and four twin-stick models - that would cost up to €20 million.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:31 pm

Buy some Gripens, make a deal with Hungary to place a squadron at their base. Shared support facilities, training, logistics... even mixed squadrons, with dual markings (like the Navy/Marine hornets), patrolling all of Hungary and Croatia. Croatia can wind down support for soviet aircraft without having to develop new systems, simply pay for operation. Maybe have a 'forward' base in Croatia just to have jets stationed there.

While yes, the Gripens are more expensive, the savings on service and support will help offset that.
 
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 34):
Buy some Gripens, make a deal with Hungary to place a squadron at their base. Shared support facilities, training, logistics... even mixed squadrons, with dual markings (like the Navy/Marine hornets), patrolling all of Hungary and Croatia. Croatia can wind down support for soviet aircraft without having to develop new systems, simply pay for operation. Maybe have a 'forward' base in Croatia just to have jets stationed there.

Given that little of this system would physically be in Croatia - and that the CroAF would have reduced control over patrolling its airspace - I gather it would be simpler to outsource everything to Hungary (and/or other NATO allies) like Slovenia did and disband the fighter wing. While an arrangement like you proposed would keep Croatia's hand in with its own jets, and give pilots the chance to stay fast jet rated, the economics might be an issue - you are paying quite a lot more than you would if air policing were outsourced, but you have little to show for it in country...
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:06 am

It could be a joint effort, the patrol needs of Croatia and Hungary would be the same mission, it would cover both countries, not just fly down the border between the countries.

There could always be a forward deployed flight in Croatia, just the main base would be in Hungary. Perhaps an offset could be arranged where cargo operations are out of Croatia and combine those assets too.


Having something to show for it is a big element in my opinion for a nation paying taxes. Seeing Croatian jets over Croatia is a morale booster, and public opinion is what gets funding increases.
 
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:51 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 33):
Looks like the MiGs really are here to stay.

or not.....

Quoting Oroka (Reply 34):
Buy some Gripens

According to a Swedish newspaper,Croatia is closer to a 8-12 Gripen buy....
Link only in Swedish.
http://www.di.se/#!/artiklar/2012/10/8/kroatien-narmar-sig-jas-kop/

Bing translate

The country's defense minister Ante Kotromanovic, told the newspaper Jutarjni List the final quote from Sweden will be on Wednesday this week.According to the newspaper, the Croatian Defense Minister interested in purchasing eight or twelve Jas Gripen. In addition, Defence export agency have promised counter-trade of 15 billion kronor.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:16 am

If it was possible maybe Serbia+Croatia+Slovenia could pool some fighters, say a few gripens. With Turkey growing in power and influence, these 3 nations should take note for the future. I don't know what to really think about the modern Turkey.
 
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:27 am

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 37):
The country's defense minister Ante Kotromanovic, told the newspaper Jutarjni List the final quote from Sweden will be on Wednesday this week.According to the newspaper, the Croatian Defense Minister interested in purchasing eight or twelve Jas Gripen. In addition, Defence export agency have promised counter-trade of 15 billion kronor.

What the Swedish article failed to mention is that in Jutarnji list Kotromanovic was also quoted saying "The MoD does not have the funds for buying new aircraft". The MoD budget is under strain from paying the EUR 100 million Patria AMV buy, and the whole of the armed forces are preparing for massive layoffs; the Croatian article article mentions that considering the above, it is hard to believe that the MoD would dish out a billion Euros for new jets.

Quoting sweair (Reply 38):
If it was possible maybe Serbia+Croatia+Slovenia could pool some fighters, say a few gripens. With Turkey growing in power and influence, these 3 nations should take note for the future. I don't know what to really think about the modern Turkey.

Just like with Serbia and Croatia, the conflicts between the Balkan Slavs and Turks are a thing of the past (several centuries past to be exact). If anything, virtually all the countries in the region (at least those from ex-Yugoslavia) have very good relations with Turkey, both politically and economically.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:13 am

Another issue that could throw the financial spanner into the Gripen works is the MoD's intention to modernize the country's old Mi-8 fleet. Still flying alongside newer Mi-171s, these helicopters are starting to show their age and haven't been substantially modernized or upgraded since they were acquired in the early to mid 90s. While no decision has yet been reached, the solution - as announced by the MoD - will either be a thorough overhaul, or withdrawal from service and replacement by additional Mi-171s... both of which will require significant funds.
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 39):
it is hard to believe that the MoD would dish out a billion Euros for new jets.

Lets wait and see what SAAB propose on wednesday...perhaps SAAB offer Croatia to use the Gripen at zero cost,the first two years....  
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 41):
Lets wait and see what SAAB propose on wednesday...perhaps SAAB offer Croatia to use the Gripen at zero cost,the first two years....

Actually, that was mentioned at some point in the negotiations (I believe recently as well) - the first two years Croatia would be able to use the jets free (excluding fuel naturally), under the condition that it buys them in full at the end of that period  .
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:34 pm

I've been waiting for someone to take on the M-346 Master sponsor role, but since nobody's stepping forward I'll take the bait:

* 5 new examples would fit in a 100 M€ budget (a lot less than as many Gripens), and a 2-year free lease agreement would have better chances of working out ok
* born as a trainer, so no need of a separate training a/c
* climb rate in excess of 6000 m/min (20000 ft/min), thrust/weight ratio > 1: enough for intercept missions in a small footprint
* air-to-air weapons are already integrated (2 AIM-9 on wingtip rails): sufficient for a credible air policing role
* completely integrated with NATO equipment, would be an ideal transition aircraft towards NATO standards and interoperability
* can be retained long-term as a trainer if/when better economics allow for more capable aircrafts
* built for low operating and maintenance costs
* manufacturer is based practically next door

The Master would make a fair amount of sense for the requirement.

[Edited 2012-10-09 07:44:13]
 
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SAS A340
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:02 pm

Today it came.....

http://fxm.se/blog/gripen-erbjudande-till-kroatien

Bing translate:

Today, leaving the Defence export agency, FXM, an offer to Croatia for the purchase of eight JAS 39 Gripen aircraft.The Swedish State, FXM, a deal involving the sale of eight Planes of version c/d. the proposal also includes a support and educational contracts for the pilots and flight engineers, as well as a financial solution."We are pleased to submit this offer, drawn up in close cooperation with Croatia. The Gripen has an excellent ability to maintain national sovereignty and to contribute to international efforts. The system is NATO-interoperable. It is one of the best fighter in the world at the same time, systems are effective and robust with low life cycle costs, says Peter Göthe, Deputy Director General of FXM.-To the Croatian air force should be operational without interruption when their current MiG-21s: or taken out of service, offered a solution where C/D-plan very quickly, within a year, may be operational, "says Jerry Lindbergh, who is project manager for Croatia on FXM.
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TripleDelta
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 44):
Today it came.....

Now we wait  .

Though I myself am not really hopeful on a positive outcome - no matter how hard SAAB pitches its case. The country's BDP is in the red and expected to drop by another 1.5% next year... and, aviation-wise, there's an ongoing situation with OU that may require some significant funds to patch up, funds that may very well be sapped from the "fighter fund" (if there is one)...
No plane, no gain.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 45):
Now we wait

Yes,should be interesting to see the outcome  . Do we have a date for final decision?
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 46):
Do we have a date for final decision?

Nothing reported so far.
No plane, no gain.
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:05 pm

A new (albeit short) article that has been published recently suggests that the deal - IF it goes through - would be signed by the beginning of January, since that's the limit specified in the contract. In that case, the jets would be delivered in January 2014.
No plane, no gain.
 
mig21umd
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RE: CroAF May Buy Used MiG-21s

Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:39 am

So if the contract is signed in January 2013, then the question is will Croatia be in a position to start paying for the aircraft from January 2015?

Also reported somewhere......, can't remember where and could not find the link but it was recent, a study showed that the Grippen is by far the most affordable of the newer combat aircraft type at about $4500 per flight hour, compared to around 15,000 for the Rafael and almost $20,000 for the Eurofighter. Any idea how much the Mig 21s are per flight hour?
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