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TK787
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Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:29 pm

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mis...pageID=238&nID=23802&NewsCatID=341
Probably a F4.
Hopefully Syria agrees to a S&R and they find the pilot/s. It has been 5 hours already.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:21 pm

It is still early but...
"Syria apoligizes taking down Turkish warplane"... What?
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/syr...pageID=238&nID=23802&NewsCatID=341
At least the pilots are safe.
 
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RJAF
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:27 pm

If it is indeed shot down by Syrian forces, then this is quite an escellation. Some sources are saying it's an F-4..glad the pilots are OK.

I'm sure Syrian forces are tense especially since the incident of yesterday where a MiG-21 defected to an airbase in Mafraq, Jordan. The MiG was intercepted by RJAF F-16s which were on QRA from airbase in Al-Azraq.
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:58 pm

Latest news;
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-...pageID=238&nID=23802&NewsCatID=341
Back to where it started; no news about the pilots, no idea how the plane went down.
Hope they rescue the pilots, it is going to get dark soon.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:17 pm

Now breaking news on BBC.com and also Turkish Hurriyet website says, the plane was shot down.
Wow, this is not good!
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:04 pm

Interesting to note that the departure airport for the flight at Erhac is a forward base to Turkish AF RF-4 reconnaissance wing.

So if they were running intelligence flights over Syrian airspace, I can certainly see why they might act to protect their sovereignty.
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
So if they were running intelligence flights over Syrian airspace,

It might be the case, but from what I read this is supposed to be a routine flight over the Mediterranean toward Northern Cyprus.

Is this pretty common to fly these missions with only one plane, instead of pairs?
Wouldn't there be a rescue helicopter standing by and locatted closer than Erhac?
What is more likely, air to air or ground to air by Syrians to shoot it down?

Thanks.
 
Spacepope
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 6):
Is this pretty common to fly these missions with only one plane, instead of pairs?

All reports as of now should be taken with a grain of salt, but it has been reported that they were indeed flying in pairs, both aircraft hit but the second Phantom returned to base with damage.
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LimaNiner
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:17 am

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out yet that Turkey is a NATO member, and an attack on one NATO member is considered an attack on all NATO members...

Good luck with that, Bashar.
 
Spacepope
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:23 am

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 8):
I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out yet that Turkey is a NATO member, and an attack on one NATO member is considered an attack on all NATO members...

I fail to see how a Turkish warplane being shot down over Syria constitutes an attack on Turkey. Good luck applying Article 5 here.
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LimaNiner
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 9):
shot down over Syria

Sorry, I missed the confirmation from both sides that the F-4 was, indeed, flying over Syrian territory/water... Can you quote a source?
 
Spacepope
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 10):

Sorry, I missed the confirmation from both sides that the F-4 was, indeed, flying over Syrian territory/water... Can you quote a source?

Only from the Syrian military. They claim to have shot it down after violating their airspace.

http://www.acus.org/natosource/offic...ium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

Sure it's not exactly an unbiased source, but if you have evidence that it indeed wasn't over Syria/Syrian territorial waters, I'd love to see your sources.
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GDB
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:10 am

What brought the F-4 down? A SAM?
Syria does have long range SAM's, it could be that they fired on the aircraft that was on the fringes of, or maybe flying in and out of, Syrian airspace.

Remember Syria is a paranoid military regime run by a minority tribe, who are of course, facing a prolonged uprising which, unlike in the past, their extreme brutality has not put down.

Turkey has been the one nation suggesting ways to protect Syrians from their own government by setting up safe havens to be guarded, on the ground and in the air, by NATO - predominately Turkish, forces.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 11):
Sure it's not exactly an unbiased source, but if you have evidence that it indeed wasn't over Syria/Syrian territorial waters, I'd love to see your sources.

Turkish President suggests this also;
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/23/world/...y-syria-plane/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Quoting GDB (Reply 12):
What brought the F-4 down?

Sounds like Anti aircraft guns.

Still no news about the pilots.
 
tu204
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:13 pm

IF the aircraft was inside Syrian airspace by as much as one meter, all I have to say is congrats to the Syrian AA defences in proving that they can protect their sovereignty from foreign aggression. If that is the situation, I hope that it is a wakeup call to any involved parties that Syria is not Libya and although it would still fall to an overwhelming foreign invasion, it would be very costly. Russia needs to stop screwing around and provide the Syrian forces with some modern S-400 systems as this would be a great deterrent. ( want to try making Syria into a Libya? Ok, be prepared to lose half of the aircraft you send in!)
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sweair
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:47 pm

Is it not common to warn before you shoot? Anyway the territorial borders might be contested as well. Too little information is known to be sure of what happened.

Russia would be vary to get involved as Turkey could block their access through the passage way. Turkey is no Georgia..
 
tu204
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 15):
Russia would be vary to get involved as Turkey could block their access through the passage way. Turkey is no Georgia..

Not in Turkey's interest to do that. There is a clear treaty in place that gives the right to use the strait. Besides we also have a Northern fleet. Oh, and we can always show the illegal immigrants from turkey the door.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:55 pm

So there you go, its been confirmed that it was a RF-4E reconnaissance aircraft.

So go figure why it happened to "stray" into Syrian air space.
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:14 pm

Map from Wall Street Journal showing purported path of the F-4 circling over Syria. Starts near Northern Cyprus, and plane shot down approx six miles west of the Syrian village of Umm al-Tuyour.

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
sweair
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:43 pm

Will Turkey play this down? What could they do really? Its not like they have a B2 stealth bomber..
 
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:21 pm

Here's a link to an article in this afternoon's Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...6/22/gJQAt8SXxV_story.html?hpid=z1

Sounds like the sabre's are rattling louder!
And, yes, other NATO countries could become involved.
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sweair
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:11 pm

I don't think the will respond with direct force, they just have to arm the resistance and help them in any way. Hands off the dirty work..
 
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par13del
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:46 am

So lets see if I have this right, Turkey violates Syria's airspace and their a/c is shot down.
Syria apologizes for protecting their territory and Turkey vows to respond with determination / force?

What exactly am I missing?
 
Powerslide
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:08 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
So lets see if I have this right, Turkey violates Syria's airspace and their a/c is shot down.
Syria apologizes for protecting their territory and Turkey vows to respond with determination / force?

Are these normal SOPs? If a Venezuelan AF jet violated US airspace, would the US shoot it down or intercept it first?
 
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par13del
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting powerslide (Reply 23):
Are these normal SOPs?

Which one, violating someones airspace or telling them how they are supposed to respond?

Syria's territory was violated, they are the aggrieved party, did Turkey advise them that they were coming to spy on them, or that their training flight would stray off course?

Syria should be protesting the violation, why exactly are they allowing Turkey to act as the damaged party?
If the a/c were shot down by AAA it had to be well within Syrian airspace and if the rumours are correct that they were fast and low when exactly were they supposed to scramble fighters to identify the intruder, on the way out?

I'm willing to bet that if the a/c was at altitude it would have been on radar and radio calls made and if no response then fighters would be scrambled, but that's their choice, missiles could still have been fired, after all, it is SOP for civilian a/c to have transponders on and in communication with ATC.
 
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 24):
If the a/c were shot down by AAA it had to be well within Syrian airspace and if the rumours are correct that they were fast and low when exactly were they supposed to scramble fighters to identify the intruder, on the way out?

After the defection of the MiG-21, the Syrian Air Force has been grounded, so an interception was out of question anyway.
 
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting powerslide (Reply 23):
Are these normal SOPs? If a Venezuelan AF jet violated US airspace, would the US shoot it down or intercept it first?

A certain Iran Air Flight 655 A300 might show just how easily that could happen, similarly the Korean 747 shot down by USSR. Not much effort spent on interception in either of those cases.
 
sweair
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:24 am

Any news on the pilots? No matter who was wrong, two pilots are missing.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 27):
Any news on the pilots? No matter who was wrong, two pilots are missing.

No news on the pilots but RT says they found the fighter Jet wreckage.

RT News line, June 24
14:35 permalink
Turkish jet wreckage reportedly found

­Rescuers have located the wreckage of the Turkish jet that was downed by Syrian air defense forces after entering Syrian airspace on Friday, Turkish TV reports.

http://www.rt.com/news/line/2012-06-24/#id33156

       
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par13del
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 25):
the Syrian Air Force has been grounded,

By Syria, not a third party, and possibly to prevent any further defections and or a pilot having a mental breakdown while in flight and dropping ordinance on the presidential palace or other government institutions.
If a US Navy Carrier gets close to the coast and launches F-18's to "view" the situation does anyone here expect the Syrian Air Force to stay grounded while the US Navy conducts its first hand inspection of the current situation in Syria?

It appears as if Turkey was wrong pure and simple, whatever we feel about Syria and what is taking place, if this shoot down is to be used as legal grounds at the Nato meeting to state that a member state has been attacked it has a hole in it large enough to drive a continent through. Let see the legal defenders rise up at the UN on this one



Quoting spudh (Reply 26):
A certain Iran Air Flight 655 A300 might show just how easily that could happen, similarly the Korean 747 shot down by USSR. Not much effort spent on interception in either of those cases.

True, and not much pounding the WWIII mantra when investigations showed how these mistakes happened, one when a military confrontation was taking place and the other when no confrontation was taking place.

Turkey is in the news a lot lately, lets hope they show the necessary consistency in their positions, provoking a fight with Syria is technically the same to their ship running the Israeli blockade, unless the pilots are found alive, in both cases persons have lost lives.
 
zanl188
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:48 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 26):
A certain Iran Air Flight 655 A300 might show just how easily that could happen, similarly the Korean 747 shot down by USSR. Not much effort spent on interception in either of those cases.

Except the Korean 747 WAS intercepted & downed by an air to air missile from a fighter.

Shooting down your neighbors aircraft is an act of last resort... Both sides have some explaining to do.
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AirRyan
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:21 pm

Could be the excuse NATO and/or the West was looking for to enforce a no-fly zone over Syria, so their cowardly air force stops bombing their own population. Of course, in order to enforce a no-fly zone one has to first eliminate their air defense system.

 
GDB
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 14):
F the aircraft was inside Syrian airspace by as much as one meter, all I have to say is congrats to the Syrian AA defences in proving that they can protect their sovereignty from foreign aggression. If that is the situation, I hope that it is a wakeup call to any involved parties that Syria is not Libya and although it would still fall to an overwhelming foreign invasion, it would be very costly. Russia needs to stop screwing around and provide the Syrian forces with some modern S-400 systems as this would be a great deterrent. ( want to try making Syria into a Libya? Ok, be prepared to lose half of the aircraft you send in!)

Turkey, which however it may annoy Russians, is a democratic nation rather than a favourite blood soaked despot, is claiming that the aircraft was brought down by a SAM in international airspace. Who is right? I don't know and neither do you.

As for boasting about the greatness of Russian AD systems, a few despots have relied on them, Saddam Hussein in 1991, Slobbo the Butcher Of Belgrade in 1999, probably in his mind at least, Gaddafi last year.
How did that work out for them?
Indeed, 30 years ago Daddy Butcher Assad did the same with Soviet AD systems over the Beka Valley.
As well as Soviet aircraft, what was the score there, 80-0 to Israel I think.

Considering that an attempt to sneak attack choppers to Putin's buddy Assad recently foundered on a routine check by UK customs civil servants, I would not put much hope in SAM's getting there either.
A huge lake of Syrian blood to pay for long lost prestige and a naval base the Russians might use very occasionally these days.
 
bennett123
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:21 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18562210

I found this statement somewhat curious.

"It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over [national] borders... when you consider their speed over the sea," he added

Surely this is why aircraft have navigational instruments. Besides apparently he was in Syrian airspace long enough to be shot down.

It does not suggest exceptional technical competance, after all the route is supposed to be planned before take off, not worked out enroute.

Besides, he seems to regard his aircraft wandering into Syrian airspace as essentially a non issue, and would doubtless regard a Syrian aircraft flying into Turkey in the same casual manner.

IMO, unless it can be proved that the aircraft was attacked in international airspace, then any attempt to introduce a wider NATO role seems likely to fail.
 
9VSIO
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:51 am

Could the SAM have been launched when the pilot was in Syrian airspace, only for it to hit after he had bugged out? What would be the legal position if this was the case?

I sincerely hope that the lesson being taught to the pilot that day wasn't navigation....
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TheCol
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:26 am

Turkey has called for a meeting at NATO to discuss an appropriate response.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18568207

IMHO, probably will result in NATO beefing up their task force in the Mediterranean Sea. It's also likely NATO will step up pressure on the Security Council for a resolution. China will probably back off further. Hopefully Russia does the same, or they'll risk escalating the conflict.
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spudh
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 30):
Except the Korean 747 WAS intercepted & downed by an air to air missile from a fighter.

Sorry, I knew it was shot down by a fighter but I thought it was a long range shot. I didn't realise that the fighters had done a full intercept before firing missiles at it.

Tragic event either way.
 
LMP737
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 32):
As for boasting about the greatness of Russian AD systems, a few despots have relied on them, Saddam Hussein in 1991, Slobbo the Butcher Of Belgrade in 1999, probably in his mind at least, Gaddafi last year.
How did that work out for them?

I remember the anxiety back in 1990-1991 over Saddam's air defenses. As we all now know it was much to do about nothing.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 35):
IMHO, probably will result in NATO beefing up their task force in the Mediterranean Sea. It's also likely NATO will step up pressure on the Security Council for a resolution.

Do'nt be suprised if "surplus" Turkish Army weaponry shows up in the FSA. Gear like the Kornet-E which both Syria and Turkey has in it's inventory. I would guess that at least some of the FSA memebers have a bit of familiarity with it.
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GDB
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 36):
Sorry, I knew it was shot down by a fighter but I thought it was a long range shot. I didn't realise that the fighters had done a full intercept before firing missiles at it.

Tragic event either way.

It's gets worse, the SU-15's had cannon pods as well as AAM's. Warning shots were fired but it was night and no tracer rounds were in the pods.
Then they made the pilot they had ordered to use his AAM on the 747, fake up a cockpit recording to justify the lies they told.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:32 pm

Are there any disputed borders in the area, e.g. like Libya´s Great Syrte bay, which acc. to Ghaddaifi was Libyan airspace, but acc. to the UN (and US) international?

Also there has been news from Turkey that Syria shot at a Turkish SAR aircraft looking for the pilots of the downed F-4.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...hooting-second-turkish-plane-claim

BTW, a few months ago Syrian troops have fired into Turkey at a refugee camp just across the border. IIRC there were casualties both among the refugees as among Turkish troops.

On the other hand Syria, Russia, China and Iran have declared to start a joint military training exercise in Syria with about 90.000 troops.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
chuchoteur
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
Also there has been news from Turkey that Syria shot at a Turkish SAR aircraft looking for the pilots of the downed F-4.

Reports suggest that the SAR aircraft was "lit up" by the syrians, but no shots fired... provocative, but maybe not the big incident it could have been.
 
sweair
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:23 am

They could have lit up the first aircraft instead of shooting it, just saying. Then this would have blown over in a second.

There is talk of turning off the electricity for Syria..I don't think Turkey or NATO wants an armed conflict, they can do a lot of damage in other ways, like arming the resistance, providing them with intel, help more officers deflects etc.

This will be a proxy war most likely. Assad will be handled by his own people, it seems like many in his command don't believe in killing civilians.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:27 am

Perhaps such incursions are routine among neighbouring states and the Syrian forces were on high alert due to the current unrest, this leading to the shoot down.

I agree that if Turkey try to use this to invoke NATO defense support it will be seem an intentional provocations of self defense..... regardless of the actions of the Syrian regime.
 
smittyone
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 14):
Russia needs to stop screwing around and provide the Syrian forces with some modern S-400 systems as this would be a great deterrent.

Unless they're implemented as part of a comprehensive Air Defense network and crewed by Russian operators they'd be better targets than anything else.
 
LMP737
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
On the other hand Syria, Russia, China and Iran have declared to start a joint military training exercise in Syria with about 90.000 troops.



I've heard that same story and wondered what could possibly be gained by Russia and China to take part in such an exercise. Turns out that the story first appeared in FARS, the government of Iran's official mouthpiece. Syria and Russia have gone on record to deny such an exercise was going to take place.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ia-exercises-idUSBRE85I0YG20120619
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par13del
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 44):
I've heard that same story and wondered what could possibly be gained by Russia and China to take part in such an exercise.

Same thing that the US attempts to gain when they park a carrier off the coast of countries getting ready to do battle, cool and calm down the situation.

Turkey sent an a/c over Syrian territory - anyone believe it was an accident - and got a response, now they are ringing the bells of war. Imagine Turkey doing a cross border raid in an area where Russina and Chinese troops are stationed.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 45):
Turkey sent an a/c over Syrian territory - anyone believe it was an accident - and got a response, now they are ringing the bells of war. Imagine Turkey doing a cross border raid in an area where Russina and Chinese troops are stationed.

As I mentioned, about two months ago Syrian troops opened fire into a refugee camp close to the border between Turkey and Syria, but on Turkish soil. IIRC some Turkish soldiers and refugees got killed. Turkey has shown remarkable restraint back then.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:00 pm

Latest Turkish news site says; besides their boots, pilots helmet is found:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/20853540.asp
It has been almost 5 days since the incident, what do you make of this latest news?
Thanks.
 
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par13del
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
As I mentioned, about two months ago Syrian troops opened fire into a refugee camp close to the border between Turkey and Syria, but on Turkish soil.

Yes, and Syria stated that they received fire from the Turkish side and they responded, the incident was world news, was an independent investigation conducted?
Events have spiralled since then so I may be out of touch.
 
sweair
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RE: Turkish Warplane Missing In Syrian Waters

Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:39 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 47):
Latest Turkish news site says; besides their boots, pilots helmet is found:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/20853540.asp
It has been almost 5 days since the incident, what do you make of this latest news?
Thanks.

It looks like both of them are lost, maybe they had no time to escape?

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