kapnoc4389
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Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:59 pm

I just found this article(sorry only in Spanish) about Mexico looking for a new Presidential transport and the first choice would be the 787. To summarize the article:

"Mexican officials have approached Boeing to replace the current TP-01(B757). According to company sources the model that best suits the necessities of Mexican officials is the Boeing 787. Boeing representatives told the newspaper that the aircraft is available and it can be delivered immediately since it is one of the first ones to be built and used for test flights and certification."

On a personal note, I would love to see the 787 in Mexican Presidential transport colors, and even better a new more modern design to better suit the 787.


Link:
http://www.excelsior.com.mx/index.ph...555&seccion=seccion-nacional&cat=1
 
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kngkyle
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:02 pm

The 787 makes a lot of sense as a Presidential transport for most countries. Hopefully Mexico goes with it.
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting kapnoc4389 (Thread starter):
Mexico looking for a new Presidential transport and the first choice would be the 787

Price tag of about US$200M with 44% of the population living below the poverty line.. perhaps the Mexican government ought to rethink its priorities.
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thrufru
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:29 pm

I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:48 pm

Hopefully!

There is one thing I find very sad as an aviation enthusiast and it is that local media has demonized this plan of the Ministry of Defense and the President's office. The criticism basically goes along these lines: in a country where there are so many social needs that need to be addressed and resolved urgently, it is dispendious, even extravagant, to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a new airplane to haul the President around.

I suppose the media and those who are always finding something to criticize fail to see that the current Presidential planes (757s) are old and not efficient in terms of fuel consumption, and that the President needs to make a series of stops all over the world when traveling long haul. For better or worse, the reality is that heads of state need to have modern and efficient long-haul aircraft to take them on official trips abroad. Plus, in a country with a GDP of 1.16 trillion dollars and with international reserves at the central bank of 150+ billion dollars, one or two 787s do not seem extravagant or overly expensive to me. Sure, I suppose the President could get instead one or two A321NEOs or 737-9MAX aircraft with additional fuel tanks, but those would take years to be delivered and I wonder if the savings would be meaningful enough. In addition, a narrowbody plane with extra fuel tanks might not be spacious enough to haul the entourage of the President during his official trips.

Too bad the guy who will get to enjoy the new plane during the next six years is a nefarious idiot, but that is a whole different topic!
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G500
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:48 pm

I think the 787s will be the Presidential airplane of choice for several countries, mainly because of its size (not too big, not too small), and range, amongs other things
 
kapnoc4389
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:49 pm

According to the article they are looking to finance it and the petition was for 120 million. Currently the Mexican armed forces are renewing their fleets, since they are more than 25 years old.
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:53 pm


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alejandro Hndez



Mexico Air Transport 1 is not an old bird considering that its entire life has been spent as a private plane, and its total cycles must be registering comparatively low to an average commercial 757 of the same type and age.

Back in the days, the president of Mexico would charter a DC-8 from then state-controlled AeroMexico for his trips abroad when the presidential plane was insufficient for his needs.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/18778_293309404647_4372579_n.jpg

With Mexico's security situation today this would not be a practical solution in the name of saving tax payer money. The argument being used is that the aircraft--which was originally purchased for $43 million back in 1988---is costing the government a hefty sum in order to maintain now that it is almost 25-years old. The plane was purchased from Boeing with a twelve year financing plan and an APR interest rate of 12%. In 2007, the plane received $67 million worth of upgrades in order to keep it in top shape and in the coming years will require another significant investment in order to update its security and safety systems with the latest technology. With the current level of security problems in the country the government is proactively looking at this expense as a wise investment in order to ensure the president's safety and security by acquiring the latest safety systems that will not only protect him but allow him to exercise his duty as president while on the plane in case of an emergency, while at the same time also acquiring a more efficient plane.

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:23:09]

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:24:03]
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AirframeAS
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:57 pm

I say go for it. Make the cheatlines in the Dreamliner wavy design like what UA is doing with it's upcoming 787's. I think that wavy cheatline should come standard in the paintshop.
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roseflyer
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:13 pm

Boeing is retiring the first three 787s. The next 3 are certifiable, but overweight and not ideal for airline operations. No airline wants line numbers 4-6. I assume Boeing would give the Mexican government an extremely good deal on these airplanes, and a deal probably can be made to get maintenance support tied to AeroMexico’s 787s. The early build 787s likely are of no use to anyone other than as BBJ/VIP airplanes. They will come with a less than ideal configuration and maintenance program because of all the rework. However for an operator that only has one airplane, it isn't as much of a concern.

This sounds like a smart decision for the Mexican government.

[Edited 2012-07-24 12:14:22]
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G500
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:52 pm

One question about presidential airplanes,

Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ can take all over the world for a third of the money
 
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viaggiare
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ

because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.
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LAXintl
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:09 am

How about a 767-300ER ?

Some commonality including with cockpit crews to the 757, and surely cheaper than a 787.

Also the 767 is well know in Mexico with parts availability, and mechanics when needed.
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LatinPlane
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):

How about a 767-300ER ?

Some commonality including with cockpit crews to the 757, and surely cheaper than a 787.


From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price. If Boeing sells this 787 at a loss it would be a great sales win for Boeing. While perhaps it may seem a bit too much of an aircraft, if we go back and look at the facts, we can see that back in the early 1990s the decision to keep a brand new 757 during the tequila financial crisis was also highly criticized, but today we can see that this aircraft has more than paid for itself twice in the 25 years of service it has provided the country.

If we look at what this airplane has also helped the country achieve since 1990, when the aircraft arrived, Mexico changed drastically from being an extremely closed protectionist country to one that today has arranged free trade agreements with 44 countries. Mexico's exports to all countries increased 475% from 1994 to 2011 to the tune of $61 billion to $350 billion, and its imports during the same period increased 342%. Mexican tourism and aviation industries has greatly benefited from the president's promotional trips abroad. Mexican airlines have been secured valuable landing rights to foreign airports thanks to the president's diplomatic negotiations. For example, AM secured up to four landing rights per week to congested Narita even before Emirates was ever allowed to land there. So, again while a 787 may pump up the president of Mexico with self importance as Viaggiare suggest, if it is used wisely to promote trade, business, investments, and political goodwill for Mexico in the next 25 years then it will probably be good a return on its investment for the country.

Lastly, while the 757 was obtained with a 12% APR terms, at a time when Mexico's credit rating was in the trash, I'm sure the financing package available today will be a much sweeter rate thanks to Mexico's financial strength and its very healthy credit rating.

My own personal opinion.

[Edited 2012-07-24 19:36:06]

[Edited 2012-07-24 19:40:41]
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bennett123
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:18 am

Whilst I am aware of the uses of "Bizjets" which this essentially is, I always find it hard to stomach these same people, who are supposed to be public servants buying these things for their use, (often including private use) with my money.

They are also frequently calling for "belt tightening" from the man in the street at the same time.
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 13):
From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price.

The frame may be bargain basement. The interiors and the engines would probably not be discounted.

Still it would be a good buy. I was hoping that Paul Allen would one of those early frame to fly our local American Football team.   

bt
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bigjku
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 11):
Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ

because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.

There is actually more to it than that.

Depending on the nation there are vastly different needs for air transport.

For example Air Force One makes a lot of sense for the US as it has certain communication and security requirements that necessitate the large frame. This is not necessary for most nations that don't have nuclear deterrence to consider so you generally see smaller airplanes used.

But a 787 is not an outsized aircraft for a nation like Mexico. You have to consider that some level of office/communications must be present for a head of state. Additionally you generally are going to have to transport support staff and reporters (a big issue for democratic countries) around on your government aircraft for official trips. There probably is some ego in getting bigger national transport planes but there is practical purposes as well. They are also a pretty small expense for almost all nations in the grand scheme of things.
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 16):
and reporters (a big issue for democratic countries)

In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.
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bigjku
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 17):
In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.

That is a fairly uninformed rant. The media pays to fly on Air Force One. I have no idea what other nations do. They are transported there because it is important for the people to see what the President is doing. But they pay their way on the aircraft.
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 18):
But they pay their way on the aircraft.

And they are more than willing to pay fare value to be close to any leader. I bet, that even if they have to pay premium prices to fly with a presidential plane vs saving money flying tourist class, major media outlet will pay the extra money just to be that much closer to their story.

bt
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 18):

That is a fairly uninformed rant. The media pays to fly on Air Force One. I

Okay. I still find it a surprising arrangement.
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Devilfish
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting thrufru (Reply 3):
I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.
Quoting kapnoc4389 (Reply 6):
According to the article they are looking to finance it and the petition was for 120 million.
Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 13):
From the article provided, Boeing is offering one of those early-model 787s to the government of Mexico at a bargain liquidation price. If Boeing sells this 787 at a loss it would be a great sales win for Boeing.

Quite a good deal for both Boeing and the Mexican government. Boeing gets an $11B order from AM and the FAM gets a state-of-the-art transport with the range for almost all conceivable presidential missions, at a bonus price. Win-win!   

[Edited 2012-07-26 08:48:35]
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spink
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:45 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 17):
In a mediacracies maybe... in a sane world the media might pay for their own transport.

It the real world it is often not viable for the media to fly commercial given the itineraries that are generally flow by heads of state, esp in the modern world where airport security can require pre-checkin times longer than the actual stop duration. The only real alternative would be either a fleet of private planes or the media pooling together and chartering a larger plane, both of which present logistic issues. You also have to consider that not all head of state itineraries are pre-published. And there are also cases where there are no viable commercial means of going where the head of state is going in a timely fashion (think natural disasters/national emergencies). Therefore, it makes sense to provide at least limited seating for media on head of state flights. Remember that the media provides a proxy for the openness and information which in theory is needed for a republic or a democracy to function.

If Mexico can get a 787 at a good discount, it seems perfectly reasonable to do so. It is a new plane that will be in commercial service for the next 30+ years. 757s only have so much life left in them, and operating a type after the vast majority of operators have stopped can be very costly, esp with a 30+ year old plane.
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting thrufru (Reply 3):
I would like to think that the government of Mexico is not paying list price, particularly if one is not talking about a new, purpose built airframe.

Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc...so they will still pay well for this bird, whatever they get if it's "new".
135Mech
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 7):
In 2007, the plane received $67 million worth of upgrades in order to keep it in top shape and in the coming years will require another significant investment in order to update its security and safety systems with the latest technology. With the current level of security problems in the country the government is proactively looking at this expense as a wise investment in order to ensure the president's safety and security by acquiring the latest safety systems that will not only protect him but allow him to exercise his duty as president while on the plane in case of an emergency, while at the same time also acquiring a more efficient plane.

Well said.

I think a good world presence for the leader of an important nation is well worth the price.

Quoting viaggiare (Reply 11):
because 1) it's on the people's dime for the enjoyment of the political elite, and 2) aircraft size/cost must be in accordance to the country's world standing, whether real or, as in this case, self–perceived.
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 21):
Quite a good deal for both Boeing and the Mexican government. Boeing gets an $11B order from AM and the FAM gets a state-of-the-art transport with the range for almost all conceivable presidential missions, at a bonus price.

Thanks for the view from cynic's corner!

Quite often I am there myself, but for whatever reason, I will not join you today.

Quoting spink (Reply 22):
It the real world it is often not viable for the media to fly commercial given the itineraries that are generally flow by heads of state, esp in the modern world where airport security can require pre-checkin times longer than the actual stop duration.

And given that they quite often fly to private or military airfields....

Quoting 135mech (Reply 23):
Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc..

IIRC we paid to put 747-400 engines onto the 747-200 frame, no?
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135mech
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 23):
Yes, however like Air Force One's VC-25's... we paid a LOT more for them due to the airframes being heavily modified for security etc..

IIRC we paid to put 747-400 engines onto the 747-200 frame, no?

I just contacted my friends over there, and they confirmed that they are -200 series engines.
135Mech
 
Max Q
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:42 am

The VC25 has the same engines as the 747-400.


Incidentally that Mexican Government 757 must be an ex Eastern Airlines model if it's a -225.


Don't think it was delivered new.
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rfields5421
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ can take all over the world for a third of the money

First - a plane like that won't cost 'a third of the money'. As mentioned above Boeing is heavily discounting 787 frames 4-6 - which would likely put the prices much closer.

Secondly - A G-550 or Global XRS is good for a company who needs to regularly transport no more than six people. Regularly. I don't really know anything about the government of Mexico - but I suspect his communication needs and the support staff needed for his talks with various leaders, and business leaders requires a bigger staff than that. Also, the times I've seen him on TV from visits to the US, he does have a security staff. Nothing as massive as the US President Secret Service detail - but some would need to travel with the President of Mexico.

A BBJ could do about 10-12 people regularly, unless the end customer wants to spend several million extra to redesign the interior. Some nations do have customized higher passenger load BBJs in use.

Some of those same countries charter a B777 or A330 if their president/ prime minister needs to make official long distance trips.

One of the problems with a bizjet aircraft is luggage space for a large party. At least a BBJ does have the luggage space.

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 20):
Okay. I still find it a surprising arrangement.

The US news media went on an 'ethics' bender in the late 70s / early 80s - about not accepting anything free from the people they cover. They don't accept rides on business jets of companies either.

It became a huge pain and accounting nightmare for the US military. While we could figure the cost of a cruise ship ticket from San Francisco to Honolulu for the media I organized for the last voyage of the USS Missouri, and we could figure the cost of trans-atlantic air fare when I organized a P-3 media ride across the pond - how do you figure the cost of a COD to the USS Lexington? or the cost of two days on a carrier.

And of course the money the media pays goes into the general fund. It doesn't go back to the unit providing the 'service'. It doesn't even go back to add to DODs budget.
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:29 pm

Brazil is looking for something bigger than the A319CJ currently operated. While I thinks this is completely unnecessary, if it is going to happen, why not look into second hand A340s??

Cheap, modern, four engines, long range. . .
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sweair
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:02 am

Even if the first frames are 5-6t overweight the range will be enough as a VIP plane never travels filled to its gills, the terrible teens should have a range of about 6700nm with 240 seats filled?!

I would be a waste to scrap these too, the first 3 will be scrapped or museum exhibits.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:33 pm

One thing about flying the 787 vs the 757 will be the global availability of parts through Boeing spares network for the next 20+ years. When you have to fly somewhere, you don't want to wait for a week for parts when you can get it the next day.

bt
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):
why not look into second hand A340s??

Why would you put tons of money into customizing something that is at the end of its production life?

Spares, etc are only going to get costlier and harder to find from here on out.
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135mech
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 25):
IIRC we paid to put 747-400 engines onto the 747-200 frame, no?

I just contacted my friends over there, and they confirmed that they are -200 series engines.
Quoting 135mech (Reply 25):
The VC25 has the same engines as the 747-400.

I just recieved an e-mail from another one of my engine friends, and they are equipped with the CF6-80's as the 400's are.

Apologies on the Friday bad-info. That source wasn't an engine troop.
135Mech
 
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747classic
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 33):
The VC25 has the same engines as the 747-400.I just received an e-mail from another one of my engine friends, and they are equipped with the CF6-80's as the 400's are.

Some hairsplitting :

The VC25's are powered by digital supervised, mechanical controlled( Non Fadec) CF6-80C2B1 engines . This type of engine cannot be converted into the CF-6-80C2B1F engine variant as installed on the 747-400 series.
This is caused by the lack of provisions for measuring points (probes) needed for the FADEC at the engine casing of the Non Fadec engines. A lot of (internal ) engine part are however interchangeable.
The CF6-80C2B1 variant is certified on later produced 747-200 and 300 series and are installed at a total of nine 747 classic aircraft. The 747-2/3 - CF6-80C2B1 combination is not exclusively certified for the VC25.
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Marcus
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:37 pm

The price the local media is quoting is of $140-160 million, that is just for the plane itself...I'm sure there will be a sort of maintenance/service/upgrade contract also.

Current...



Proposed...

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rfields5421
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:57 pm

I like how they are comparing the capacity.

A 66 seat 'all first' or executive layout 757 aircraft to a 290 seat high density Y config 787-9.

The B757 has an 11 ft wide cabin area that is about 118 ft long.

The B787 has a maximum 18 ft wide cabin that is about 140 ft long.
 
FF22DXB
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 36):
I like how they are comparing the capacity.

The best is the description about the engines!!

  
 
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Aesma
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 10):
One question about presidential airplanes,

Why can't a corporate jet do the job? a G-550, Global XRS or BBJ can take all over the world for a third of the money

They can. Until recently the French president used either a Falcon (several models) or an A319ACJ. Now the main plane is an A330 but for short trips a Falcon 7X is usually used. That bird can also transport a minister, including around the globe to overseas territories like Tahiti or New Caledonia.
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Fyano773
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:30 pm

Back on topic, I started a thread in the general aviation forum about this same subject, but it was deleted, albeit there is a very interesting disussion here. I previously posted an image of the plane (shared in fsmex.com forum), wearing the FAM colors:



To those who suggested a 763, here is one:



Certainly, the president will have a more capable aircraft to attend meetings and summits with his counterparts, rapidly and safely.

This plane will be a big improvement over the current one whose range leads to 1 or 2 stops when flying from Mexico to Europe or Asia. Today, a journalist could potentially arrive (and return) before the president to cover a state visit.

[Edited 2012-07-30 16:32:32]

[Edited 2012-07-31 12:26:55 by srbmod]
 
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:50 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 20):
Okay. I still find it a surprising arrangement.

Why? The intent is to prove that there is no favoritism applied to the current politician by the press getting a 'free ride'. It is to maintain impartiality. Of course, it fails, today's press is far from impartial, but that was the intent.

As one who worked with technical journalists world wide, I found the arrangements in Europe fascinating. If we were hosting the journalists on some event - they expected 1st class accommodations for free. We flew them business/first class. They paid for nothing. They got grouchy if you considered they had to pay.

In the US, they would never consider accepting such a trip for free. They would, at most, go to a dinner on the company, but not the rest.

Again - they wanted to be able to claim - we are not biased toward this company because of any gifts, etc.

As an employee - I was not allowed to accept any gift but the smallest token from press, customers or business partners for the same reason.
rcair1
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
Why would you put tons of money into customizing something that is at the end of its production life?

If the frame price is cheap enough... A345's for example should make quite good VIP frames as they have no resale value on the used market, but have commonality with the much better A346 frame so it should give you quite a bit longer window of active support of the frame.

In this case, they are likely getting a 787 for quite cheap, and can look forward to 30 years of active support as they are just starting thier service life. So its the best of both worlds. Boeing punts a unique frame that would be costly for an airline to support along side its production standard planes for as much as the market demands to a customer who can buy lots of other things that cost big money.... Mexico gets a brand new plane for used prices.
 
bennett123
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:21 am

So what will they do with the B757, (FedEx?).
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 40):

Which leads to this nugget. With a composite frame, fatigue life is no longer a major issue. You can fly the frame for as long you can support it with replacement parts . . . can't say the same for the aluminum counterpart.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Max Q
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 42):

Which leads to this nugget. With a composite frame, fatigue life is no longer a major issue. You can fly the frame for as long you can support it with replacement parts . . . can't say the same for the aluminum counterpart.

Why would a composite airframe not be affected by fatigue ?



That makes no sense.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):

Why would a composite airframe not be affected by fatigue ?

That makes no sense.

"Fatigue" as in crack growth. There are other types of degradation with respect to composite, but crack prorogation is not an issue with composite as it is on aluminum skin.

Now, there may be aluminum fittings used that may have to be replaced over the life time of the craft, but those are easier to replace than a skin panel.

Where titanium fittings are used, crack growth is not expected to be an issue either.

bt

[Edited 2012-08-01 14:55:54]
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:10 pm

Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:54 pm

And there it is... according to this report seems like the budget has been approved and will be left to the next president to sign and move forward. If so, the aircraft will arrive in 2015 and the new security and safety infrastructure will be in place by then.

http://www.redpolitica.mx/nacion/nue...vinculado-seguridad-nacional-poire

[Edited 2012-08-01 17:45:36]
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 46):

Wow that was fast. How long ago did they start work on this? It would have taken years if not decades for something like this go go through procurement here in the US.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 47):
Wow that was fast. How long ago did they start work on this? It would have taken years if not decades for something like this go go through procurement here in the US.

The project has been in evaluation for some time. The issue here was not acquiring a flamboyant plane for prestige, but rather upgrading the entire department of the air force in charge of transporting the head of state with the most sophisticated safety and intelligence infrastructure both on the ground and in the air. Take into account that Mexico is a country at war with vicious drug cartels that try and sometimes manage to infiltrate government institutions to make a point.

Government officials working on the project took the opportunity to check out the 787 when it arrived at AeroMexico's base earlier this year on its Latin American demonstration tour. It was there that Boeing started engaging in serious talks with the federal government of Mexico. Based on their study and with the good terms offered by Boeing, they later concluded that such an aircraft would be the best choice for an investment that would produce benefits over the next 30- plus years.

One of the problems with the current 757 TP-01 is that this is for the most part simply a VIP aircraft and lacks the modern security and communication systems to guarantee the safety and confidentially of the president. One can assume that EL AL's 757s standing alone are probably safer than Mexico's presidential 757. Boeing is offering a good deal, but this is just one part of the entire cost, for you can expect this aircraft to be fitted with anti-missile defense systems as well as very complex security and communication infrastructure both on the ground and in the air and this simply does come cheap.

While the federal government of Mexico has approved the project with a budget of $780 million USD to overhaul the entire department, the project is still far from squared away. This year a new government will take over and it is up to the new president to analyze and give the okay. He will have to decide whether the 30-year-up-front investment is worthwhile the harsh criticism he will receive from his national opponents. Yes, Mexico has many social issues it needs to tackle and there will be a combination of justified and unintelligent uproar about the cost associated with such a project. However, it is up the new president to do things wisely for the long term benefit of the country. Nevertheless, as history in Mexico has demonstrated, he might make stupid mistakes like the one with the Fox administration in which the president's wife went crazy redecorating the presidential palace and ordered bath towels costing $500 each and bed sheets costing $1,500 a piece, just among other extravagant expenditures.

Last night, I looked at the magnificent program that the National Geographic produced four years ago about Air Force One, and it made me understand a little more of the complexity involved with having a presidential aircraft and understood the seriousness of Mexico's plan with its own presidential air transport going forward: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ2Fjqld2_A&feature=related

And, I contrasted it with the lack of seriousness with other presidential planes in the region. So for those of you that think that the Mexico should just go with a 737 business jet, because that is what you think a country like Mexico needs, well maybe he just get himself a BAE-146 like Evo Morales of Bolivia and do things that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZtOl...D939062079580&feature=results_main

[Edited 2012-08-02 14:26:12]
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bigjku
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RE: Mexico Looking For New Presidential Transport

Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 48):
And, I contrasted it with the lack of seriousness with other presidential planes in the region. So for those of you that think that the Mexico should just go with a 737 business jet, because that is what you think a country like Mexico needs, well maybe he just get himself a BAE-146 like Evo Morales of Bolivia and do things that way

One does have to remember that AF1 levels of tech and security are derived from the Presidents unique role as national command authority for a nation that is both the target and deliverer of nuclear weapons on ballistic launchers. You can add to this his role commanding the worlds most powerful conventional armed forces and being the main leader of coalitions that span the globe.

The president of Bolivia is hardly going to have to respond to a nuclear strike while airborne so you can dispense with a huge amount of what goes into AF1 right there. Honestly most of his duties can likely be handled with an air phone.

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