krisyyz
Topic Author
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Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:15 pm

Apparently the Canadian Government is looking into replacing the aging fleet of 25 CT-114 Tutor aircraft. Obviously given the current state of the global economy some are questioning this move. I for one see the Snowbirds as an important player in Canada's global image and a source of national pride. There is talk of moving some CF-18s to the snowbirds, I would imagine this would only happen once the CF-35 start arriving. The BAE Hawk could be another option. The Tutor's need to be replaced by 2020.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08...ing-755m-to-replace-snowbird-jets/

KrisYYZ
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Thread starter):
Apparently the Canadian Government is looking into replacing the aging fleet of 25 CT-114 Tutor aircraft. Obviously given the current state of the global economy some are questioning this move. I for one see the Snowbirds as an important player in Canada's global image and a source of national pride. There is talk of moving some CF-18s to the snowbirds, I would imagine this would only happen once the CF-35 start arriving. The BAE Hawk could be another option. The Tutor's need to be replaced by 2020.

This is consistent with the current government's view that appearances are more important than reality.

Given the track record of the military issuing RFP's versus the reality of EIS for whatever is chosen, whatever is selected probably won't be in service until almost 2030. Unless Rona Ambrose works some sort of miracle.

The CF-18s will be out of time in 2020 and only heavy maintenance will extend their lives, perhaps to 2025. The Hawk is a fine mount, but will be too expensive for the CF given the current and continuing budget cuts, so...

Think Tucano. That's if it is decided that a demonstration squadron is important. I love watching the Snowbirds, but I'll live if they are stood down.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:49 pm

From the National Post article: “The Snowbirds, while entertaining, are a luxury at a time when people are losing their jobs, the economy is hurting and the government is in debt,” said Mr. Staples, who argues that too much is being spent on the military. “It’s a huge cost for air show entertainment.”

Obviously he doesn't understand the recruiting value of the Snowbirds nor does he realize the very positive impact the team has on the public at large. Canada needs the Snowbirds as surely as the US needs the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels and the Royal Air Force needs the Red Arrows. People in high places in the military will tell you the team's benefits far outweigh the expenses.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
Powerslide
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 2):
Mr. Staples, who argues that too much is being spent on the military.

Perhaps he should actually spend a day with the military and the fighter force in particular, then he will change his tune. The guy is nothing more than loud, annoying yapping dog that needs to be put down.

I think the snowbirds serve their purpose but the Tutor is obviously too old to continue any further. To suggest that the CF-18 should replace it is insane. Once the F35, or whatever ends up replacing the Hornet, enters service with Canada the F-18's need to be placed on sticks across the country. Having them fly around at airshows at their airframe hours would be dangerous and extremely expensive.
 
TheCol
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
This is consistent with the current government's view that appearances are more important than reality.

The reality is that the Tutor's should have been replaced in the 90's, but the government you cherished so much figured that the RCAF's most important recruiting tool wasn't a priority.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
Think Tucano. That's if it is decided that a demonstration squadron is important. I love watching the Snowbirds, but I'll live if they are stood down.

Think not. If the Harper government is smart, they'll get a deal from BAE for new trainers and replacement aircraft for the Snowbirds.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 4):
The reality is that the Tutor's should have been replaced in the 90's, but the government you cherished so much figured that the RCAF's most important recruiting tool wasn't a priority.

That's a short-sighted take. Yes, the Tutors should have been replaced a long time ago. However, thanks to Mulroney and his gang of thie....cabinet ministers, there were simply no crumbs in the cupboard. So everyone had to take a turn and bend over the chair. The military, of course, but also medicare, education, and a raft of government services that you had taken for granted were now for fee.

By around 1998 we had stopped foreign borrowing, and shortly started producing surpluses. And started paying down our enormous mountain of debt. Under the Liberals, those free-spending near socialists. Who would have thunk it ? And then Harpo et al came along and decided that surpluses were a bad idea - even though we still had debt to discharge - and promptly (and unwisely) reduced the GST and voila! We're back into deficit. The stimulus package was largely not needed in Canada.

But from your profile perhaps you don't remember.

Hawk might be a good choice, however. Seems to be popular worldwide.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
MrChips
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 4):
Think not. If the Harper government is smart, they'll get a deal from BAE for new trainers and replacement aircraft for the Snowbirds.

Supposedly, we need to replace our existing Hawk fleet, as they're unsuitable to lead into the F-35 (this fiasco has yet to really gain much traction in the media; the need for new trainers after buying a bunch a decade or so ago). So, take the existing Hawks and give them to the Snowbirds.
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 6):
Supposedly, we need to replace our existing Hawk fleet, as they're unsuitable to lead into the F-35 (this fiasco has yet to really gain much traction in the media; the need for new trainers after buying a bunch a decade or so ago). So, take the existing Hawks and give them to the Snowbirds.

Good point in general. However, the existing Hawks are not ours to give, as they are owned by BBD. CF merely buys time.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
boeingfixer
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting MrChips (Reply 6):
Supposedly, we need to replace our existing Hawk fleet, as they're unsuitable to lead into the F-35 (this fiasco has yet to really gain much traction in the media; the need for new trainers after buying a bunch a decade or so ago). So, take the existing Hawks and give them to the Snowbirds.

Supposedly is the key word. If the USN, USMC, RAF, RN, RAAF are all going to be using Hawks as lead-in trainers for their F-35's, why are ours unsuitable?

As for the Snowbirds, there really is nothing wrong with the Tutor other than the image of its age. When I worked on them in the 90's they were a very simple, inexpensive aircraft and they are still living up to that. The only thing is that they are 46 to 50 year old aircraft.

If the move to change aircraft type is due to cost you won't see either the CF-18 or the Hawk as their mount.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
Think Tucano. That's if it is decided that a demonstration squadron is important.

It won't be the Tucano as that's an entirely new type to the RCAF. My gut feeling is that the Snowbirds will either be disbanded due to ignorance or go the cheap route of flying the uninspiring Harvard II. If they went to the Harvard II I would rather they be disbanded on a high note then to see them relegated to an inappropriate and unexciting mount.

Cheers,

John
Cheers, John YYC
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 8):
It won't be the Tucano as that's an entirely new type to the RCAF. My gut feeling is that the Snowbirds will either be disbanded due to ignorance or go the cheap route of flying the uninspiring Harvard II. If they went to the Harvard II I would rather they be disbanded on a high note then to see them relegated to an inappropriate and unexciting mount.

Acchh ! Major brain cramp. Not Tucano, but PC-9. It's what happens when you pass the 60 threshold ....
Maybe I should start taking HGH or something like that.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Allee
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:50 pm

I love the Snowbirds and hope they pick the Hawk. I wonder what the $755 million will get them. Based on a price of about $30 million apiece, $755m will buy about 25 planes. I doubt the Snowbirds will need more than 12 jets (11 for show team plus one spare).
 
Oroka
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RE: Canada's Snowbirds To Get New Aircraft

Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:47 am

I NEVER thought I would see the day! I thought I would see the Snowbirds disbanded first.

Smartest thing the RCAF can do is make the Snowbirds new jet to be the same as the new trainers on the way. Old hawks would be decent too.

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