hirsch777
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Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:16 am

Hello,

Being that both VC-25's, 2800 and 2900 are Nearly 23 Years Old, and what is currently offered by A & B, Is it imminent that the USAF will procure replacement Presidential Aircraft within the Near Future?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_VC-25

According to Wikipedia:
"Future
These aircraft are expected to be replaced as they have become less cost-effective to operate. The USAF Air Mobility Command is looking into possible replacements and press coverage suggested that the USAF would consider the Boeing 747-8 and the Airbus A380 from the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS).[11] On January 7, 2009, the USAF Materiel Command issued a new Sources Sought notice for a replacement aircraft to enter service by 2017 with an additional two aircraft to follow in 2019 and 2021.[12] As of January 2009, Boeing is the only aircraft manufacturer interested in supplying the replacement aircraft,[13] and is reported to be exploring a 787 option also.[14] On January 28, 2009, EADS North America confirmed the company will not respond to the US Air Force notice, as assembling only three planes in the US would not make financial sense.[15]"

787 Seems rather Small for what is Needed. The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

It was left off from 2009. Any News as of then?

Regards,

HIRSCH777
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:25 am

read on one of the sites the other day, the the replacement will begin in 2017 and that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,
Vietnam time..
 
hirsch777
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:40 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 1):
that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,

- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.
 
PHX787
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:43 am

Belongs in military forum.

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 1):
read on one of the sites the other day, the the replacement will begin in 2017 and that 3 x 748's were being considered to replace the current aircraft,

Three? That's shocking! But I guess good news for Boeing.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Three? That's shocking! But I guess good news for Boeing.

There are two of the current version, maybe they figure they can get a longer life out of them if they have three.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
BMI727
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:55 am

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter):
787 Seems rather Small for what is Needed. The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

They'll need 747 size or bigger. Sure electronics have gotten smaller, but there is also need for more of them. I imagine the Air Force will also want more capacity for security staff, aides, and press.

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

You're talking about a fleet that must maintain 100% readiness and reliability.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
PHX787
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:58 am

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 4):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Three? That's shocking! But I guess good news for Boeing.

There are two of the current version, maybe they figure they can get a longer life out of them if they have three.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

You're talking about a fleet that must maintain 100% readiness and reliability.

You guys got a point. I wonder what the window configs will look like
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AF185
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:00 am

The B748 would look stunning in the Air Force One livery... though I'd be interested to know why 3 are needed?  Confused

[Edited 2012-09-07 00:06:10]
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:03 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
You guys got a point. I wonder what the window configs will look like

we planned that  

And on the windows, probably what they look like on the average 748i. The ones on the current VC-25 looks a lot like the 742 does.. Except for the upper deck, which my guess with look similar to what it looks like on the VC-25, no windows due to electronics.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
Superfly
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:09 am

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter):
The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

  
Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.
Bring back the Concorde
 
hirsch777
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:10 am

Quoting AF185 (Reply 7):
Air Force One livery on an A380? I think one can dream

Airbus Already stated it will not be Financially Viable for them.

Also with the Tanker Issue back in 2008
"Northrop Grumman and EADS then won in 2008, only to have government auditors block the award after Boeing protested that the evaluation had been too subjective."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/business/25tanker.html


HIRSCH777
 
hirsch777
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:17 am

The current VC-25's have 747-400 Engines on there. Much More Powerful than the standard -200 Engines. I Guess its needed to lift all those extra Mods on Board. It Also Cost More than a 747-8, in 1990 Dollars!

So Imagine How Much New 747-8 Air Force One will Cost, times 3.

Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:17 am

Quoting AF185 (Reply 7):
though I'd be interested to know why 3 are needed?

Well the current ones are barely 20 years old, if you have three then you can use each one less, let it have more maintenance time and possibly get a longer life span out of it.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
rfields5421
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

Currently an E-4B is available as a standby for overseas trips and if one of the two VC-25 have to go in for heavy maintenance.

Since the four E-4B are not going to be replaced with similar B747 frame aircraft and are expected to be retired in 2015, the Presidential fleet will require three aircraft, not two, to maintain the current capability.

Six aircraft are planned to be replaced with three new builds.

This current thread has some useful information on the AF1 replacement process
Air Force One & Marine One (by JayinKitsap Aug 10 2012 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

[Edited 2012-09-07 03:33:05]
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting AF185 (Reply 7):
The B748 would look stunning in the Air Force One livery

Indeed.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
Flighty
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 8):
The ones on the current VC-25 looks a lot like the 742 does.. Except for the upper deck, which my guess with look similar to what it looks like on the VC-25, no windows due to electronics.

The 748 has around double the floor area of the 742 on the upper deck. I'll bet if utilized carefully, that extra space upstairs can provide much better communications... it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
The 748 has around double the floor area of the 742 on the upper deck. I'll bet if utilized carefully, that extra space upstairs can provide much better communications... it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing.

As you said, with todays equipment reduced in size, they could probably incorporate a war room even extended into the "attic space" if they wanted. The 748i could be a very formidable White House / military platform if done right.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:44 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.

If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.

Except that EADS has opted out of bidding on the contract. You can't buy an A-380 if the manufacturer doesn't want to sell you one and won't give you a place in the production line.

Frankly I wouldn't blame any company for choosing to not bid on such a contract. The oversight, the requirements for US military security clearances for people working on the plane, the constant change orders - all make dealing with the most difficult airline customer in the world much easier.

I guess the USAF could wait until used A-380s come on the market.
 
mrcazzy
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 4):

One of the other advantages to having 3 is cuz the one that the president is on will never fly alone. So they would need 2 of them to be 100% ready at a time.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Quoting HIRSCH777 (Thread starter):The 747-8I Seems like the Best Fit.

Agreed.
Air Force One is a flying Oval Office and that is the aircraft with the space that is able to handle those operations.

You do understand that the current two VC-25As (B-747) replaced two VC-137Cs (B-707)? The VC-25 provided something like 3 X the floor space the VC-137 had.

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 11):
Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.

If that is all, then it is a bargan (at $700M each). Remember, had the fleet of VH-72s been bought they would have cost some $500M each.... for a helio!
 
j.mo
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.

Except for they still want it to look good.  

JM
 
bigjku
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting j.mo (Reply 21):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you need the space then the A380 has a lot more, surely if this is to be a flying White House and lots of space is required they might as well opt for the airliner with the most space.

Except for they still want it to look good.

JM

Agreed. The A380 is technically wonderful but it lacks the elegance of a 747 in any configuration. The 747 just has some classic lines to it.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
If that is all, then it is a bargan (at $700M each). Remember, had the fleet of VH-72s been bought they would have cost some $500M each.... for a helio!

The truth on that program still needs to come out. A), a handful of people ought to go to jail, and B) a lawsuit on behalf of the US taxpayer needs to be levied against somebody what ultimately became an egregious financial gift to Canada courtesy of the taxpayer. I don't know about you, but I'd like to have bought one or two of those helicopters at those prices.

Even in their present, final form these 9 helicopters were still better than what HMX presently has, and not only could do everything that the current fleet could, they could do so much more given the more modern airframes. I believe Obama was looking for a piece of low hanging fruit when he cancelled this program, but let us make no mistake about it, it will only cost us more in the long run and in turn, it will just be Boeing making the same VH-71 aircraft instead of LM, because it is still the best medium lift platform in the world.




http://defensetech.org/2012/04/19/oh...te-of-the-marines-vh-71-fleet/

Quote:
The nine US101 helicopters as well as additional spare parts were purchased at a cost of around $164 million. That price includes shipping, handling, and engineering support.

Read more:

http://defensetech.org/2011/06/28/fi...ne-one-choppers/#ixzz27URogmNf
Defense.org

http://defensetech.org/2011/06/28/fi...e-canada-buys-marine-one-choppers/







[Edited 2012-09-25 07:13:03]
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 2):
- 3 To be Replaced? Wow. Thats some Serious Tax Money of Mine.

That man travels heavy. When Clinton visited Copenhagen some 15 years ago he arrived on two VC-25A and three C-5B.

Quoting HIRSCH777 (Reply 11):
The current VC-25's have 747-400 Engines on there. Much More Powerful than the standard -200 Engines. I Guess its needed to lift all those extra Mods on Board. It Also Cost More than a 747-8, in 1990 Dollars!

So Imagine How Much New 747-8 Air Force One will Cost, times 3.

Over 2 Billion Dollars in Just Purchase costs.

The extra cost over a standard 747-8 is mostly defence and comms stuff which we don't know much about. That stuff is constantly exchanged or upgraded to state of the art on the VC-25s (and also E-4s), and it will simply be transferred to the new frames.

- And of course, on the new frames it will also be exchanged and upgraded many times over the life cycle of those planes. At a huge, but undisclosed cost to the taxpayers.

A more optimistic version is that finally peace breaks out on planet Earth, and consequently the AF1 role is taken over by a good old C-20H Gulfstream. Probably too optimistic?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:59 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 24):
A more optimistic version is that finally peace breaks out on planet Earth,

The only way peace will break out on Earth is when there is a conflict on another planet.
By then you'll need something with warp drive . . . an the price of 3 "Earth Force One" will be a gazillion dollars   

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Oroka
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:43 pm

In todays world, couldnt the POTUS ride a 787 sized jet, and have a C-17 with a palletized whitehouse in the vicinity? This option would leverage the entire C-17 fleet and free up (V)C-787s for carting around lesser members because it is not jammed full of uber expensive gear. The president flys with a fleet already... maintenance would be cheaper due to the KC-787s not needing uber secure facilities, and a larger fleet replacing the C-32s.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 26):
and have a C-17

Any way you look at it, an extra C-17 for the prez is still more expensive than a 747-8 specially when that production line is shutting down.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 26):
lesser members

The lesser members, AKA the press core would rather be on the same plane as the prez.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 26):
the KC-787s not needing uber secure facilities,

The uber secure facility has nothing to do with the size of the airplane, it has to do with the prez. The difference between tarmac requirement for the 787 and the 747 is not much compared to the projected security zone required by the prez.

If you want to down size, a 777 would be a much better solution than a 787 because the aluminum skin will make it much cheaper to modify for all the "add-ons" that you will be adding on.

Don't know how a 787 handle the EMP requirement. But my guess is an all aluminum 777 would be easier to harden for EMP protection.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
rcair1
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
it is amazing how much more miniature today's equipment is, for one thing

This only applies if you assume the comm suites of current aircraft have not been upgraded already. I assume they have - so if there is not enough room, it is because they need more stuff, not old big stuff.

However, EMP protected comms tends to be much larger than, say, your Droid or Iphone.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 24):
That stuff is constantly exchanged or upgraded to state of the art on the VC-25s (and also E-4s), and it will simply be transferred to the new frames.

Yup.

It'll be a 748. Realistically, not other options. 4 engines. US made. Biggest you can get. Bet a cup-o-joe on it.
rcair1
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 28):
comm suites of current aircraft have not been upgraded already. I assume they have - so if there is not enough room,

For COM suites, miniaturization only applies to circuitry and digitization. The basic physics of sending radio waves are the same. For HF and UHF you need the same amount of energy to send the same signal for a certain distance. The power supply and transmitter would not have been able to be reduced by that much.

With digitization, you can get more band width with the signal you have. But then you are sending a ton more information on those signal now-a-days.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
rcair1
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 29):
For HF and UHF you need the same amount of energy to send the same signal for a certain distance. The power supply and transmitter would not have been able to be reduced by that much.

Not entirely true. UHF digital system (not sure there is an HF digital system) tend to be quite a bit lower power. The S/N ratio is enough better you can do so.

For instance, the VHF analog radios I use are 50 watt. The UHF digital ones - 5. The UHF had restricted range compared to teh VHF, but it is not linear.
rcair1
 
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scbriml
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
Except that EADS has opted out of bidding on the contract. You can't buy an A-380 if the manufacturer doesn't want to sell you one and won't give you a place in the production line.

I'm sure if Lockheed or Grumman wanted to bid with a plane based on the A380 that Airbus would sell them two or three. EADS did say they wouldn't bid, but that doesn't mean another bid couldn't be based on the A380.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
Frankly I wouldn't blame any company for choosing to not bid on such a contract. The oversight, the requirements for US military security clearances for people working on the plane, the constant change orders - all make dealing with the most difficult airline customer in the world much easier.

Problem solved if someone else bids but uses your plane.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 30):

Not entirely true. UHF digital system (not sure there is an HF digital system) tend to be quite a bit lower power.

  

Yeah, I see this with over air Digital TV signal. But of course, if you keep the old power output requirement, you can extend your range    .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement

Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 32):
Problem solved if someone else bids but uses your plane


not so... the secret service will watch the plane and insist on background checks even if it's a green plane being delivered to an outfitter. The second problem which has be stated ad nauseum is there are too many structural and systems changes (like wiring) that preforming on a flown green plane means expensive dis-assembly and rework.. AF1 a/c are purpose built from the first assembly point to eliminate the rework effort. Boeing knows because we screwed up on the first 747 and had to strip it down to skins, stringers and ribs and re-assemble.. the cost was enormous.

while some think one could take any commercial plane and modify it in an outfitting shop, the basic facts are that is the most expensive way to go.

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