connies4ever
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Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:33 pm

I don't know what he was smoking, but recently retired Maj-Gen Lewis MacKenzie of the CF proposed canning the F-35 program and substituting an updated version of the Avro Arrow.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/09...tive-to-f-35-stealth-fighter-jets/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_CF-105_Arrow

I'll be Devil's Advocate here: what if the powers that be actually decided to go ahead with an updated Arrow ?

- I believe it would be difficult if not impossible to get your hands on detail design drawings, so no starting point;
- All production jigs and tools have long since been destroyed;
- It would be a domestic market only, since most everyone else has signed onto the F-35, for better or worse. Likely a maximum of about 100-110 a/c would be built, which would push the cost through the roof. Program cost might actually be more than what the F-35 will ultimately cost us (if Canada actually proceeds with it, see below);
- Arrow was only ever designed to be an interceptor (a nuclear strike version was looked at), but these days, to intercept what, exactly ? F-35 and F-18 have the advantage of being much more multi-role;
- program timetable would likely not mesh with the out-of-service date for the existing CF-18s.

So a "new" Arrow is for many reasons simply not practical, and therefore many expect the F-35 is a fait accompli. However, a committal from the new agency created to oversee military acquisition programs has not made any statement on that topic. The committee was created basically to make acquisition programs more transparent as DND has frequently and persistently misled parliament concerning costs and timescales on these programs.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Oroka
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:04 pm

wwwwuuuuuuuutttttt t f.

wow, that is just dumb. I love the arrow, but this is just dumb. other than scraps of the design, nothing exists, it would be a whole new program.

dumb.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:42 pm

MacKenzie is quoted in the article as saying, “It’s an attack aircraft. It’s designed for attacking ground targets and its stealth is most effective against short range radar, protecting ground targets,”

I don't recall the Arrow ever being designed to be anything but a very high performance interceptor. And it surely didn't come along at a time when stealth was even being considered by other than Lockheed, perhaps. Assuming what's been said about drawings, tools, and jigs being destroyed, the project would literally have to start from square one and would be an all-new program, given that it would have to be updated to reflect current technology. Given that a stealth airplane has to be designed from the ground up to have stealth capability, it appears what he's suggesting is going to be nearly impossible, beyond being way too expensive to pursue.
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connies4ever
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 2):
MacKenzie is quoted in the article as saying, “It’s an attack aircraft. It’s designed for attacking ground targets and its stealth is most effective against short range radar, protecting ground targets,”

That statement really got me thinking MacKenzie was on something. You're correct that it was only intended as a high performance interceptor. And there's precious little to intercept anymore.

The nuclear strike role had been considered, as a free fall tactical would have fit in the weapons bay -- perhaps that's what prompted his "attacking ground targets" statement.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
mffoda
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
I don't know what he was smoking

Hello!!! Crack!!!  
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
GDB
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
That statement really got me thinking MacKenzie was on something. You're correct that it was only intended as a high performance interceptor. And there's precious little to intercept anymore.

Quite. It was a pure interceptor.
Fine aircraft it might have been, impressive as an engineering achievement - from a relatively small industry - the real reason Arrow was axed, or at least the reason along with costs, was the reduction in it's mission in importance.
By the time it flew, ICBM's were starting to be the major threat to the North American continent, over the aircraft of the Soviet Long Range Aviation force.

The tiny number of Soviet SS-6 missiles at the beginning of the 1960's was just the start and those who had to plan for the defence of Canada knew it.
Canadian airspace still needed guarding, policing, unglamorous the F-101's might have been, they would pass muster for the task, within NORAD.
CF-105's costs would have been out of proportion relative to the mission and would have had serious effects on the rest of the Canadian armed forces.

That was true in 1959, how the hell anyone who wishes to be taken seriously thinks that 53 years on, a revived Arrow is of any utility in the 21st Century battle-space, for Canada's requirements today, is off the wall.
Is this story a spoof?
 
connies4ever
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
Fine aircraft it might have been, impressive as an engineering achievement - from a relatively small industry - the real reason Arrow was axed, or at least the reason along with costs, was the reduction in it's mission in importance.
Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
CF-105's costs would have been out of proportion relative to the mission and would have had serious effects on the rest of the Canadian armed forces.

Your latter point is the real reason the Arrow was axed. And, it was on the recommendation of the various service heads. Canada had/has only a small amount of $$ to allocate to defense so it has to be spent wisely (and we will see this if the F-35 does indeed go forward). Army needed new tanks, navy needed new destroyers, air force itself needed new transport fleet (even in 1958 they were relying on DC-4Ms !). So Arrow was offered up. What it would have cost to deploy I do not know, but I have read $8M per frame in 1958 dollars, outside of R&D costs, which at the time of cancellation were on the order of $500M (1958). And that does not include required infrastructure improvements.

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
That was true in 1959, how the hell anyone who wishes to be taken seriously thinks that 53 years on, a revived Arrow is of any utility in the 21st Century battle-space, for Canada's requirements today, is off the wall.
Is this story a spoof?

Don't think the story is a spoof. An industrial backer is a company called Bourdeau Industries, which operates in both the UK & Canada.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
art
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
CF-105's costs would have been out of proportion relative to the mission and would have had serious effects on the rest of the Canadian armed forces.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 6):
Canada had/has only a small amount of $$ to allocate to defense so it has to be spent wisely (and we will see this if the F-35 does indeed go forward). Army needed new tanks, navy needed new destroyers, air force itself needed new transport fleet (even in 1958 they were relying on DC-4Ms !). So Arrow was offered up.

This is one of the reservations I have about F-35 - it risks being so expensive to buy and operate that other elements of defence capability will have to be sacrificed. Improving capability by X in one domain at the cost of a loss of capability of 2X in other domains = BAD IDEA to me.

It's a shame that the Arrow was developed so long ago, making resuscittion a non-starter. Canada might like to re-examine alternatives to F-35 such as Rafale, Typhoon, F-15(?) in the light of the uncertainty surrounding F-35 costs and availability.
 
GDB
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting art (Reply 7):
This is one of the reservations I have about F-35 - it risks being so expensive to buy and operate that other elements of defence capability will have to be sacrificed

But at least the F-35 is relevant to the sort of missions today and in the future.

This whole 'bring back the Arrow' stuff seems to be about the aircraft's potential performance, one never proven in testing as it did not progress that far.
Nothing that would protect it from a modern AD missiles.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:51 am

I, for one, think the US should tank the F-35 and pursue the F-104 as an alternative.
 
fridgmus
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 9):
I, for one, think the US should tank the F-35 and pursue the F-104 as an alternative.

No way Steve, bring back "The Thud", the Republic F-105 Thunderchief. Supersonic right on the deck!   

F
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neutrino
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:43 pm

Or resurrect the Arrow's US contemporaries of the same 1950s era mach 3+ high performance bleeding-edge technology of the time superfighters; the North American XF-108 Rapier and the titanium turbo-ramjet powered Republic XF-103 Thunderwarrior.  

[Edited 2012-09-17 09:46:47]
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting neutrino (Reply 11):
XF-108 Rapier

For a project cancelled in the late 1950ies, this looks really... cool!


David
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sturmovik
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting neutrino (Reply 11):
the North American XF-108 Rapier

Quite a good-looking bird, that one!


TSR-2/0979918/L/" target="_blank">View Large TSR-2/0979918/M/" target="_blank">View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mike Freer - Touchdown-aviation



If we're gonna resurrect long extinct one-offs though, my vote goes for the TSR-2.
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L-188
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:13 pm

No, Reenginner and update the A5C Vigilante.

Tough carrier qualidued airframe, get rid of that stupid liniear bomb system and use the space for fuel and eltronics.

I'm working from memory but i think the j79's on it where very early dash numbers so there is a high performance gain that could happen there with newer plants that are similar in size
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Areopagus
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:21 pm

NAA proposed a 3-engine Vigilante for the Improved Manned Interceptor program. The 3rd engine would have replaced the "stupid linear bomb system."
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 15):
NAA proposed a 3-engine Vigilante for the Improved Manned Interceptor program. The 3rd engine would have replaced the "stupid linear bomb system."

This made me 'lol' for real, something that rarely happens on here, so thank you  


I loved the A-5, got to see it again a couple of months ago at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, FL. What a beast!
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neutrino
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RE: Return Of The Avro Arrow?

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Or bring back the YF-12; still the highest flying and fastest sustained-speed fighter till this day. Then again, what use do we have for a oversized leaky interceptor?   
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis

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