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scbriml
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India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:40 pm

India has selected the Airbus A330 for it's new tanker. An initial order for six could be expanded to an eventual total of 12.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...y=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

Quote:
NEW DELHI — Airbus has been selected as the preferred vendor over Russia’s Ilyushin to supply six aerial tankers for the Indian Air Force in a $1 billion tender, according to Indian Defence Ministry officials.

After the commercial bids were opened earlier this month, the base price of the Russian Il-78 tanker was quoted as lower than that of the A330, but when factoring in maintenance and fuel costs, the Airbus was the better value, said a Defence Ministry official.

...

Defence Ministry sources said it is not yet decided if a fresh tender will be opened to buy the remaining six or if a repeat order will be given to the winner to the current competition.
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vivekman2006
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:57 am

One more example of the IAF making its decision based on overall life-cycle cost instead of the per unit purchase cost.

This has been the trend in recent purchases, e.g. CH-47 Chinooks, AH-64D Apaches, and even the MMRCA contract.

Good decision I would say!
 
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:29 pm

IIRC, there were only two bidders, the A-330MRTT and the Il-78TT. Boeing did not bid the KC-767 or the KC-46.
 
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breiz
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
IIRC, there were only two bidders, the A-330MRTT and the Il-78TT. Boeing did not bid the KC-767 or the KC-46.

Correct, Boeing withdrew from the competition in 2010. I do not recall why, though.

Quoting vivekman2006 (Reply 1):
One more example of the IAF making its decision based on overall life-cycle cost instead of the per unit purchase cost.

Colder political relations between India and Russia are also given as an explanation.

This is the second round. Last one?
 
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sturmovik
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting breiz (Reply 3):
Colder political relations between India and Russia are also given as an explanation.

Weren't the original lot of 6 procured from Uzbekistan with Israeli equipment on board? The Pakistanis acquiring the same type was also mentioned as a reason for the shift away from the Il-78.

I wonder why the Israelis didn't jump into the fray with the IAI KC767 MMTT, though. That might just have trumped the others on cost, assuming that it would've met the technical requirements that the Il78 and the 330 MRTT cleared.

Somehow, with this tender, I get the feeling that it is a case of Shiny Jet Syndrome. Don't have any evidence to back that up, just a feeling in my gut.
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 4):

I wonder why the Israelis didn't jump into the fray with the IAI KC767 MMTT, though. That might just have trumped the others on cost, assuming that it would've met the technical requirements that the Il78 and the 330 MRTT cleared.

Life cycle cost may be higher.

Besides, does the IAI KC767 offer a boom with the higher flow rate? You would think India would want the higher flow rate in order to fuel up their P-8I and C-17.

bt
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:20 pm

I know our booms on the KC-135 flow in excess of 7k per minute with all 4 A/R pumps running.. they have a boom on the 767 capable of more than that? How much more?
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 5):
Quoting sturmovik (Reply 4):
I wonder why the Israelis didn't jump into the fray with the IAI KC767 MMTT, though. That might just have trumped the others on cost, assuming that it would've met the technical requirements that the Il78 and the 330 MRTT cleared.
Life cycle cost may be higher.

Besides, does the IAI KC767 offer a boom with the higher flow rate? You would think India would want the higher flow rate in order to fuel up their P-8I and C-17.
Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 6):
I know our booms on the KC-135 flow in excess of 7k per minute with all 4 A/R pumps running.. they have a boom on the 767 capable of more than that? How much more?

The IAI KC-767MMTT does not have a Boom, it is probe and drogue refueling only. The IDFAF KC-707s, converted by IAI use the Boeing KC-135 Boom The IAI KC-767MMTT is a converted B-762ER. The KC-135 Boom can off-load up to 8500 lbs of fuel per minute and easily refuels the P-8 and C-17. It just takes a little longer than refueling from a 1200 ppm. The Boeing KC-767A/J Gen IV Booms have an 8500 ppm flow rate, and the KC-46 Gen V Boom will have a 1200 ppm. The Boom on the A-330MRTT also has a flow rate of 1200 ppm.
 
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:16 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
The IAI KC-767MMTT does not have a Boom, it is probe and drogue refueling only. The IDFAF KC-707s, converted by IAI use the Boeing KC-135 Boom The IAI KC-767MMTT is a converted B-762ER. The KC-135 Boom can off-load up to 8500 lbs of fuel per minute and easily refuels the P-8 and C-17. It just takes a little longer than refueling from a 1200 ppm. The Boeing KC-767A/J Gen IV Booms have an 8500 ppm flow rate, and the KC-46 Gen V Boom will have a 1200 ppm. The Boom on the A-330MRTT also has a flow rate of 1200 ppm.

I think all three of those 1200ppm numbers should be 1200gpm (*gallons* not pounds). Or about 8000ppm (assuming 6.7lbs/gal)...
 
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zeke
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):

The IAI KC-767MMTT does not have a Boom

They do have a boom for the 767, A330, 737 and gulfstream.
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135mech
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):

The IAI KC-767MMTT does not have a Boom

They do have a boom for the 767, A330, 737 and gulfstream.

@Zeke, he was saying that the IAI's KC-767 is not fitted with a boom, only hose and drogue assy's as part of their configuration. He later stated that the other versions had it.

I have been enjoying reading your posts more lately.

Regards,
135Mech
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:41 am

Weird, I just read through the KC-135 -1 last night as well as the 6GA trying to find some hard numbers for max fuel transfer rate, and the best I could find in the -1 was that it said maximum fuel dump rate with 4 A/R pumps running was around 6,500lbs/min. I wonder how we're able to squeeze another 1500-2000 lbs during normal fuel transfer based on the numbers supplied by TopBoom. I can't account for the discrepancy in numbers. The nozzle poppet is fully depressed whether in fuel dump or plugged into a receptacle.
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zeke
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 11):

The numbers I have for the KC-135 are
Fuel Transfer Rate. The tanker can transfer fuel at the following rates:
a. Boom. Exceeding 6000 lb/min (2722 kg/min) through the boom.
b. BDA. Exceeding 2800 lb/min (1270 kg/min) through the BDA.
c. MPRS. Exceeding 2680 lb/min (1216 kg/min) through the wingtip mounted MPRS AAR pods.

For the KC-10
Fuel Transfer Rate
a. Boom. 3630 kg/min (8000 lb/min) through the boom.
b. Centerline Hose. 1820 kg/min (4000 lb/min) through the centerline hose.
c. WARP. 11 kg/min (2400 lb/min) through the wing hoses.

For the A330 MRTT
Fuel Transfer Rate
a. ARBS 3630 kg/min (8000 lb/min) through the Airbus Military Aerial Refuelling Boom System.
b. FRU 1820 kg/min (4000 lb/min) through the Fuselage Refuelling Unit (Cobham FRU 805E).
c. Wing pods 1270 kg/min (2800 lb/min) through the wing hoses (Cobham 905E).

This is what the tanker is capable of giving, most receivers are not capable of getting the maximum rates.
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KC135Hydraulics
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:37 pm

Those are numbers I would expect to see. I would expect the fuel dump rate to be higher than fuel transfer rate as there would be basically little to no back pressure that the fuel pressure regulator would have to dump back into aft body.
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135mech
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 11):
Weird, I just read through the KC-135 -1 last night as well as the 6GA trying to find some hard numbers for max fuel transfer rate, and the best I could find in the -1 was that it said maximum fuel dump rate with 4 A/R pumps running was around 6,500lbs/min. I wonder how we're able to squeeze another 1500-2000 lbs during normal fuel transfer based on the numbers supplied by TopBoom. I can't account for the discrepancy in numbers. The nozzle poppet is fully depressed whether in fuel dump or plugged into a receptacle.


Just a thought... The KC-135 system (tubing and Venturi) are part of what limits it to the 6,500 ppm... but a KC-135 boom installed on another frame would not have the same plumbing prior to the boom, so could that be part of the increase?

"Those are numbers I would expect to see. I would expect the fuel dump rate to be higher than fuel transfer rate as there would be basically little to no back pressure that the fuel pressure regulator would have to dump back into aft body."

Absolutely...

135Mech

[Edited 2012-11-15 13:04:19]
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:30 am

I was referring to the numbers that KC135TopBoom posted for fuel transfer rates. He stated a fuel transfer rate of 8,500 lbs/min. Perhaps it was a typo because the ,500 certainly does match the figured provided in the -1 for the max fuel dump rate. I was imagine a heavy like a C-17 or C-5 could take max fuel flow without causing any real backpressure during the transfer.
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135mech
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 15):
I was referring to the numbers that KC135TopBoom posted for fuel transfer rates. He stated a fuel transfer rate of 8,500 lbs/min. Perhaps it was a typo because the ,500 certainly does match the figured provided in the -1 for the max fuel dump rate. I was imagine a heavy like a C-17 or C-5 could take max fuel flow without causing any real backpressure during the transfer.

Cool! I remember off loading to a B-2 (while it's testing in 95)... as much as we could, he drank and it was as fast as we could pump! I remember being shocked at max take off and 45 min later calling in with 16K left!

135Mech
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:30 am

Bump.

Airbus and India are in final talks to buy 6 tankers.

http://twitter.com/ReutersAero/status/441882446922268672
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india1
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:03 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 17):
Airbus and India are in final talks to buy 6 tankers.

Lord knows we need them, but this will take some time, Karel. We get into our elections in April/May and then a new Govt will come in (who will unfortunately re-visit this order, the armed forces be damned). Sorry, I'm sounding cynical, but that's the GoI & politics for you. It's the way things are with so much of our defense procurement...
 
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:36 pm

Interview with the Chief of Air Staff:

http://www.forceindia.net/Interview_ArupRaha.aspx
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RE: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:58 am

Little update:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...r-for-indian-awacs-project-409208/

Quote:
Airbus is waiting for a decision on India's planned contract for its A330 multirole tanker transport, having agreed to further extend the validity of its bid until 1 July. New Delhi runs the risk of encountering a cost escalation if further delays are encountered beyond this date.

It has been more than three years since the A330 was first chosen to meet the Indian air force's tanker requirements, with a planned acquisition of six of the type.

The saga continues ...
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:38 pm

The deal is off.

Airbus Defence and Space (DS) has said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) terminated in late June the six-year-old USD2 billion tender for six multi-role tanker transport (MRTT) aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF), for which the company's A330 MRTT had been shortlisted.

"We have been notified by the MoD of the withdrawal of the request for proposals (RfP), but we do not see this as the end of the road for the A330 MRTT campaign in India," an Airbus official told IHS Jane's on 26 July, adding that the aerospace company "will engage with the Indian government in finding a way to bring the A330 MRTT's capabilities to the IAF".


http://www.janes.com/article/62543/indi ... econd-time
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Dutchy
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:20 pm

How is this possible. Getting areal refueling capability should be straight forward, different designs are flying and prices are more or less known. Just pick one and get them delivered. Geeee, I could do this one in a month, without corruption and then you have your a/c within two years. They are working on this deal for four years, thousands of menhours and they got nothing to show for it. Perhaps to western thinking on my part ;-)
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Stitch
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:54 pm

If I had to hazard a guess, the deal probably collapsed based on local manufacturing offsets, which is something India pushes hard for in any area they can.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:02 pm

Stitch wrote:
If I had to hazard a guess, the deal probably collapsed based on local manufacturing offsets, which is something India pushes hard for in any area they can.


That would be my guess as well. Perhaps Airbus should open another A320 fall or they should couple it to other purchases, Eurofighter perhaps. Or perhaps they should just call it a day, to much hassle to sell 6 A330, they can sell those planes much easier on the civilian marked.
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scbriml
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
How is this possible. Getting areal refueling capability should be straight forward, different designs are flying and prices are more or less known. Just pick one and get them delivered. Geeee, I could do this one in a month, without corruption and then you have your a/c within two years. They are working on this deal for four years, thousands of menhours and they got nothing to show for it. Perhaps to western thinking on my part ;-)


This is India we're talking about!
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ssteve
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:44 am

Hey, if they're truly patient, then it's an interesting RFP method. Just hang it out there and see if anyone licks your boots, and if they do... great! Wait a few years, no takers, back to the drawing board.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:24 am

scbriml wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
How is this possible. Getting areal refueling capability should be straight forward, different designs are flying and prices are more or less known. Just pick one and get them delivered. Geeee, I could do this one in a month, without corruption and then you have your a/c within two years. They are working on this deal for four years, thousands of menhours and they got nothing to show for it. Perhaps to western thinking on my part ;-)


This is India we're talking about!



Yeah I know, but still they need the capability right? Starting the process again will take another four years and then another two before delivery, we are talking about 2022 by then. I hope for India's sake, Airbus does a A338neo tanker version by then.
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zeke
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:40 am

The tanker and cargo doors are STCs they have already been applied to more than one engine type.
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angad84
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:38 am

India approved (in principle, no contract yet) an upgrade of its Il-76/78 fleet in October last year, so the writing's been on the wall for a while. An upgraded Il-78MKI, while not nearly as capable as an A330 MRTT, would have improved range/payload and should (hopefully) sort out the takeoff performance issues they've been facing in service.

A $650-odd million upgrade for the Ilyushin fleet is fair value compared to picking up all new aircraft for three times the money. We'll know for sure if/when the Russian deal is signed.
 
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zeke
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:13 am

angad84 wrote:
India approved (in principle, no contract yet) an upgrade of its Il-76/78 fleet in October last year, so the writing's been on the wall for a while. An upgraded Il-78MKI, while not nearly as capable as an A330 MRTT, would have improved range/payload and should (hopefully) sort out the takeoff performance issues they've been facing in service.

A $650-odd million upgrade for the Ilyushin fleet is fair value compared to picking up all new aircraft for three times the money. We'll know for sure if/when the Russian deal is signed.


The A330 tankers were previously selected because of their long term life cycle costs were a lot less as well as providing better capability.

I am not sure what sort of deal the "Russian Federation" can sign, they are no longer the "Soviet Union". Prior "Soviet Union" tankers were not actually built in the Russian Federation, they were built by the Tashkent Aviation Production Association in Uzbekistan. The "Soviet Union" operational Il-78M regiment was based in Ukraine.
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:55 am

zeke wrote:
The A330 tankers were previously selected because of their long term life cycle costs were a lot less as well as providing better capability.

I am not sure what sort of deal the "Russian Federation" can sign, they are no longer the "Soviet Union". Prior "Soviet Union" tankers were not actually built in the Russian Federation, they were built by the Tashkent Aviation Production Association in Uzbekistan. The "Soviet Union" operational Il-78M regiment was based in Ukraine.


The Russian Federation assumed responsibility for all Soviet-origin aircraft in Indian service -- except An-32s -- after the fall of the USSR. Rosoboronexport or Russian defence companies act as prime contractors with the Indian MoD regardless of where the hardware comes from. The origin of the tankers does not matter in this case, because it's only an avionics upgrade and re-engining, both of which the Russians do in-house at Aviastar. They've also moved all new-build Il-76/78 production there now, so the Il-476 (Il-76MD-90A) equivalent aircraft will be made in-country.

The A330 tankers are probably better in every respect than Il-78s -- whether the latter are upgraded or not. They're also a great deal more expensive upfront and this tanker buy can easily be deferred since we already have tankers. In the interim, the Il-78s can be brought up to a more useful spec for a small(er) amount of money.
 
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:05 pm

angad84 wrote:
zeke wrote:
They've also moved all new-build Il-76/78 production there now, so the Il-476 (Il-76MD-90A) equivalent aircraft will be made in-country.


The information I have is that the Russian Federation will not be in a position to produce a tanker before 2018. They were also looking to Airbus(probably Boeing as well) for tankers. Their approaches to Airbus have been resisted and after the shooting down of a civil airliner and activities in Syria I dont think anyone will want to be associated with them.

The A330 base frame need not be brand new, Australia is getting two ex Qantas passenger aircraft converted at the moment. I dont see the IL-76s being upgraded, these are being replaced by C-17s
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:21 pm

zeke wrote:
angad84 wrote:
zeke wrote:
They've also moved all new-build Il-76/78 production there now, so the Il-476 (Il-76MD-90A) equivalent aircraft will be made in-country.


The information I have is that the Russian Federation will not be in a position to produce a tanker before 2018. They were also looking to Airbus(probably Boeing as well) for tankers. Their approaches to Airbus have been resisted and after the shooting down of a civil airliner and activities in Syria I dont think anyone will want to be associated with them.

The A330 base frame need not be brand new, Australia is getting two ex Qantas passenger aircraft converted at the moment. I dont see the IL-76s being upgraded, these are being replaced by C-17s


Interesting. But are you saying that the Indian - Russian relationship has taken a blow, because Russian are mengeling in the Syrian conflict and the Ukraine conflict / shooting down of the MH17? India had a lot of Russian stuff, so that would have a great impact.

And are the Australians really getting a better deal to buy these second hand a/c, I thought they weren't that much cheaper then buying new, this was more a move to help Qantas, the same way they helped the Dutch government bought ex-Martinair DC-10's, pure from an operational and financial point of view, not really a smart move, they will be replaced soon.
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angad84
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:31 pm

zeke wrote:
The information I have is that the Russian Federation will not be in a position to produce a tanker before 2018. They were also looking to Airbus(probably Boeing as well) for tankers. Their approaches to Airbus have been resisted and after the shooting down of a civil airliner and activities in Syria I dont think anyone will want to be associated with them.

First I'm hearing of any of this. Why would they approach their competitors for help, and why would said competitors help? Also, I'm pretty sure Boeing would be legally barred from doing any military work with them anyway - not entirely certain with Airbus.

Also, the first Il-78M-90A was pretty far along in the build process when I visited Aviastar in December last year.

Here's a photo from the line - http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled ... 0A/2788879

And here's a PS90 engine awaiting installation - http://www.flickr.com/photos/angad84/24428537872/

So I'm not sure what the hiccups might be. The base Il-476 has been built and proven, this is simply a tanker conversion.

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting. But are you saying that the Indian - Russian relationship has taken a blow, because Russian are mengeling in the Syrian conflict and the Ukraine conflict / shooting down of the MH17? India had a lot of Russian stuff, so that would have a great impact.

I'm a little confused by this whole train of thought as well. Russia and India are joined at the hip, whether either party likes it or not. We lose half our military overnight if that relationship falls apart.
India has pointedly refused to condemn Russia on Ukraine/Crimea, and has more or less entirely stayed out of the way on Syria.

zeke wrote:
The A330 base frame need not be brand new, Australia is getting two ex Qantas passenger aircraft converted at the moment.

See below:
Dutchy wrote:
And are the Australians really getting a better deal to buy these second hand a/c, I thought they weren't that much cheaper then buying new, this was more a move to help Qantas, the same way they helped the Dutch government bought ex-Martinair DC-10's, pure from an operational and financial point of view, not really a smart move, they will be replaced soon.

Not sure even buying used donor aircraft would be much of a saving, certainly wouldn't get the whole programme done at a cost that would be competitive with ca. $38 million per jet for the Ilyushin upgrade.

zeke wrote:
I dont see the IL-76s being upgraded, these are being replaced by C-17s

No they are not. Where have you heard this? The C-17s are a capability expansion, not 1:1 replacements for the Il-76s. The Il-76 fleet has a LOT of life left in it and the IAF is not in the habit of throwing airframe hours away.

The only hiccup here is India's historically broken procurement system, and the huge gap between a decision and a contract. But now that the MRTT has died a second time, it's a good bet that the Ilyushin upgrade will go through.
 
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Re: India Select A330 For Tanker (again)

Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:34 pm

Stitch wrote:
If I had to hazard a guess, the deal probably collapsed based on local manufacturing offsets, which is something India pushes hard for in any area they can.


Local manufacturing is only a part of the reason. The ability to obtain "western" technology (both manufacturing and aerospace technology) itself is the one of the core reason why it will be either an A330 or a KC46. Right now it is difficult for both AB and Boeing to put any more work in to India, the learning curve is still steep. But the advance technology that can be put into both of the frames would be would make them more desirable.

Also, what is offered in the tanker frame is only part of the story. What both company can offer across the board (from civil aviation to space exploration to advance research) would tip the scale one way or the other.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

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