justinlee
Topic Author
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:08 pm

First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:18 am

First Landing and Takeoff from PLAN CV-16 Liaoning.













 
mffoda
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:33 am

I like the 2nd pic with the movie theater barricades. Tickets please!  



And the last pic is very Top Gun... Why are there 2 guys pointing?? What if one them points the other direction?  Wow!
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
RIXrat
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:20 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:57 am

I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before. Don't the Chinese use a red star in the middle with two red bars on each side, or is this a Navy version?
 
BladeLWS
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:21 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 2):
I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before. Don't the Chinese use a red star in the middle with two red bars on each side, or is this a Navy version?

Those are test markings, usually for cameras so they know what to aim at.
 
RIXrat
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:20 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:41 am

BladeLWS -- thanks for clearing that up. I was really scratching my head on that one.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5547
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:18 pm

I realize that is a test bird - but that is the ugliest color I've ever seen on an aircraft.
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 2938
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:32 pm

This is what the aircraft will look like when in service:

BTW Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ? To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XlCnvtCSpNo/UGaSNYQO2MI/AAAAAAAARko/rfnEK63JmIc/s1600/j15_04.jpg
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5547
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ?

Well, the program is almost 40 years along its development track.

Also remember that China has acquired three other aircraft carriers - to study even though some eventually were converted for other roles. They have also spend a lot of money buying and studying aircraft designs from other nations.

This carrier and program are a continuation of the development work done by the Soviets. The basic hull and design are the Soviet carrier Varyag - refurbished, completed and updated.

We will see their first locally 'designed' carrier no sooner than 2015.

What we are seeing now is the implementation of decades of work. And they are not at the end of the program.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

While we know some of the numbers about the India program, we don't know the numbers about the China program.

I would believe that China has thrown more money at the problem than India.

But China's system would make the total amount of money to be used more efficiently in my opinion.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
This carrier and program are a continuation of the development work done by the Soviets.

Considering how the Chinese seem to be aiming at copying the american style CVBG's and the fact that the Soviets used a completely different doctrine and employment for their "carriers", that seems unlikely.

The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13757
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.

Well that, and both are in various target identification databases maintained by the USAF and USN.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 2):
I'm confused by the markings on the aircraft. Never seen anything like that before.
Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 3):
Those are test markings, usually for cameras so they know what to aim at.

They are indeed test markings, but they are there to provide a known contrast and focusing point on the aircraft for the cameras, not just for something to aim at  

Take a look at the F-35 JDAM test drop photo below and you can see similar markings all over the place for the same reason.

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50813a5169bedd157d000000-940-705/f-35a-2k-jdam.jpg
 
bigjku
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
BTW Am I the only one shocked at how fast the development of their carrier program is moving along ? To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

Actually I was thinking I was quite surprised it had all taken this long since I have been hearing about it being imminent since the mid 1990's in some fashion. It will be really interesting to see how quickly they progress to an actual combat capability from here. In a lot of respects what they have done so far is the easy part. There is a lot yet to learn as you start having weapons around and attempting high tempo operations on a crowded deck with worn out crew members.

I also think STOBAR is a complete waste of time as a concept. It gains you none of the advantages of either CATOBAR or STOVL ships. There will be more learning to be done (more than they have to this point in my view) to go from a show pony to an operationally useful combat unit.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3642
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:43 pm

A side note, it was reported the that head of the aircraft company that built the plane died of heart attack during these tests. If I can find the article, I'll post the link.
 
fsnuffer
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:38 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:34 pm

Are there any disadvantages to using the jump jet approach as opposed to the steam catapult? As an armchair admiral, I would guess it limits the aircraft weights/payload that can be shot off the front of the carrier.
 
bigjku
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 13):
Are there any disadvantages to using the jump jet approach as opposed to the steam catapult? As an armchair admiral, I would guess it limits the aircraft weights/payload that can be shot off the front of the carrier.

The biggest problem is that it really only works for high thrust aircraft. You can make it work for fighters. You can use it to drastically improve the take off performance of VSTOL aircraft. What you generally can't do is make it get say an E-2 airborne. I doubt one could ever ramp launch an A-6 or an S-3 either. The biggest downside of this (other than not taking E-2/C-2 type aircraft which you might be able to replace with a V-22 type though I have my doubts) will be in the field of launching long endurance UAV's from your carriers. UAV's get their endurance generally by having large wing area and pretty low power to weight ratios. Most have pretty long and thin wings. They are just not suited for that kind of operation. That is a big benefit to EMALS for the USN is that it can smoothly accelerate more fragile drones allowing them to have lighter structures and experience less stress.

The load limit question is far more complicated and the best answer one can give is that it depends on the aircraft, deck length and jump angle.
 
mffoda
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
Considering how the Chinese seem to be aiming at copying the american style CVBG's and the fact that the Soviets used a completely different doctrine and employment for their "carriers", that seems unlikely.

The only thing this thing has in common with the soviets after all the modifications the chinese did to it, its the basic hull design and nothing else.

Lets hope they did a better job on the carrier then with their Submarine's? If that is a model of how they improve on Russian tech... Then nobody needs to worry about the Chinese for the next couple of decades.

I remember speaking with a U.S. Navy sonar guy several years ago... He said the newest Chinese boomer sounded like a garbage truck dragging strings of cans (might as well have put a "Just Married" sign on the back of it!).  
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
To think that India has spent far more money and in the end only getting a used refurbished carrier...

There's more happening behind the scenes on the Vikramaditya deal that is not publicly stated; the cash transfers also serve as means to pay for the technology transfer and design support from the Russians on the SSBN program, whose collaborative effort is not publicly disclosed as a matter of official policy. Further, keep in mind that a second carrier is being built locally, and has floated out. A third carrier has been more or less finalized, with construction soon to begin.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9864
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
There's more happening behind the scenes on the Vikramaditya deal that is not publicly stated

I've heard lots of stories about this project from Russian friends, it's hundreds of millions over budget mainly because it's making the yard directors and owners very rich.
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:40 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
it's making the yard directors and owners very rich.

Corruption in defence procurement is the rule everywhere in the world  
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 10997
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:21 pm

The PLAN CV has about the same displacement of the RN's new CVFs. However Liaoning is about 74' longer and slightly (about 3') shorter on her extreme waterline beam. But the Queen Elizabeth class CVFs carry more aircraft.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:14 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 1):
I like the 2nd pic with the movie theater barricades. Tickets please!



And the last pic is very Top Gun... Why are there 2 guys pointing?? What if one them points the other direction?



You know what they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery. Looking at pictures and watching video of operation on the Liaoning it is obvious that the Chinese Navy has been studying USN carrier ops. Probably on YouTube.   Yellow shirts directing, green shirts running out to the plane after it has landed, final checkers although they should be wearing black and white checkerboard float coats.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:46 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 20):
You know what they say, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Its not imitating... it is looking around at what works, and adapting it to their use. Why reinvent what someone already perfected?

The Chinese never had a real concept of 'intellectual property', not cause they 'steal' other peoples 'ideas'... their society never had the concept of owning and idea.


And who is to say that their own domestically built and designed carriers are not going to be 'inspired' by current USN carriers? The Liaoning is just practice for the new ships which will operate like a Nimitz.
 
flyingturtle
Posts: 4590
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 21):
The Chinese never had a real concept of 'intellectual property', not cause they 'steal' other peoples 'ideas'... their society never had the concept of owning and idea.

Imitation is a virtue in Chinese society. Chinese pupils strive to imitate their teachers. If something is seen as superior, it is copied quickly. Since very long times, the Chinese were very willing to copy foreign ship designs, learn from foreign craftsmen and builders.

If there is something that hasn't been copied, it's the philosophy. They never forgot confucianism in favor of any other world view. Perhaps this is the backbone that has allowed all the technological advances, a steadfastness in their mindset.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 21):
Its not imitating... it is looking around at what works, and adapting it to their use. Why reinvent what someone already perfected?

Looks like imitation to me.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
mham001
Posts: 4190
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
They have also spend a lot of money buying and studying aircraft designs from other nations.

And stealing them as well.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
And stealing them as well.

Well, they were not going to openly share those designs. Still cheaper to steal the info than spend countless billion dollars making it work.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4033
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):

No points are awarded for originality, just the end product.

And China is certainly not the only country engaged in spying...
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 11):
I also think STOBAR is a complete waste of time as a concept.
Quoting fsnuffer (Reply 13):
Are there any disadvantages to using the jump jet approach as opposed to the steam catapult?

It's all relative. The soviets decided against the steam catapults for the same reason they don't cover their decks with nonskid materials: the weather up north, where everything freezes.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 25):
Still cheaper to steal the info than spend countless billion dollars making it work.

Weirdly enough, they can't still make it work even when outright copying things, as show by the development of the J-11B, WS-10 engine, among other things.

Also, you don't see any other nation going out of its way to copy other as you see with the chinese, even countries with smaller R&D base.
 
ssteve
Posts: 1129
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:32 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
And stealing them as well.

While the US has a great history of military innovation, things would look totally different if we weren't up to some forthright stealing and imitation.
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:54 am

I only have two comments; the guy who took those photos was a pretty damned good photographer !

And..........


I never expected to see a Mig 29 with fold-up wings, and airborne yet ! (with the wings still folded)

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
flyingturtle
Posts: 4590
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:31 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
I never expected to see a Mig 29 with fold-up wings, and airborne yet ! (with the wings still folded)

  
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):


I never expected to see a Mig 29 with fold-up wings, and airborne yet ! (with the wings still folded)

Su-33, Geezer, but the point still stands
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 31):
Su-33, Geezer, but the point still stands

Oh wow........I stand corrected ! (Thanks GP) (but I'm still trying to figure out how to tell a Su-33 from a Su-27 ?
(They all tend to look alike to me)..........especially when they're painted yellow & blue, (with bulls eyes painted on them !)

Quoting mffoda (Reply 1):
I like the 2nd pic with the movie theater barricades. Tickets please!  


Lol ! Yeah, I noticed that...........and it looks like they forgot to put the "strap" between the little chrome plated stanchions; another thing...........I wonder who they're trying to "keep out" ? (usually not that many "rubberneckers" hanging around on flight decks)



[quote=kanban,reply=12]A side note, it was reported the that head of the aircraft company that built the plane died of heart attack during these tests.

Lol............I'm thinking, they might lose an occasional pilot too, when those guys come screaming down that flight deck, "balls to the wall", and then hit that "ski jump" ! (probably be a few "brown trouser moments" there)...........


Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 32):
but I'm still trying to figure out how to tell a Su-33 from a Su-27 ?
(They all tend to look alike to me

Su-33s are outfitted for carrier ops, so folding wings would be your first, best indicator. The wing's also longer on it than a standard Flanker, it sports a twin nose wheel, and the "stinger" portion of the tail is shorter than on an Su-27 and also has the arresting hook mounted underneath it.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 33):
Su-33s are outfitted for carrier ops, so folding wings would be your first, best indicator. The wing's also longer on it than a standard Flanker, it sports a twin nose wheel, and the "stinger" portion of the tail is shorter than on an Su-27 and also has the arresting hook mounted underneath it.

You'd think the canards would be the most obvious giveaway  
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 34):

You'd think the canards would be the most obvious giveaway

Doh! Good call - forgot to highlight those too!
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 33):
Su-33s are outfitted for carrier ops, so folding wings would be your first, best indicator. The wing's also longer on it than a standard Flanker, it sports a twin nose wheel, and the "stinger" portion of the tail is shorter than on an Su-27 and also has the arresting hook mounted underneath it.

So the Su-33 is just the "navalized" version of the Su-27......with an arresting hook, beefed up structure, folding wings, and canards ? Thanks GP and Acheron..........I just learned something I didn't realize ! To tell the truth, I wasn't even aware that the Russians had any folding wing A/C OR tail hooks.

You know, everyone has been thinking of all the reasons it will take the Chinese a LONG time to develop first rate carrier ops;
it got me to thinking.........I have a niece who's husband retired after 30 some years from the Navy; because he was a NW, the only billets for sea duty for his rate was carriers, so he served on Forrestal, Big "E", and a couple of more that I forget; I used to hear a lot about all of the "mishaps", fires, crashes, you name it; and from my own experience, I know how safety conscious most of the Navy is, yet disasters just seem to keep happening; It's a dangerous environment, in spite of all of the "old salts" who know all of this stuff, and know how to do things safely, any Navy will ALWAYS have new guys coming in, and all it takes is for ONE guy to make just ONE small slip, and you have a disaster like happened on Nimitz, killed dozens, and damn near lost the ship. So regardless of how good their carrier is, how good their pilots are, it will take a LONG time to learn how to "avoid" all of the potential disasters; ( You can steal "ideas", "designs", "plans" etc. but you can never steal safe operational experience. You can be a GREAT pilot, but the only way you will ever have the experience and "know how" of a 9,000 hr veteran, is to sit in that seat and "do it" for 9,000 hours ! (IMHO that is)

Quoting Acheron (Reply 34):
You'd think the canards would be the most obvious giveaway  

I hadn't thought of them either; going back and looking at the photos again, only two of the shots show the canards clearly.

One other thing...........I'll bet if you were to ask 500 U.S. Naval aviators "what they think about carriers with "ski-jumps", you'd get about 500 "are you kidding me" responses ! It's gonna be VERY interesting when "Ford" gets commissioned, watching the new technology for shooting planes off the deck !

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:18 am

The carrier is defintely a game changer in contested waters like the South China Sea and worries the navies of the smaller countries, which often have, like e.g. the Philippines, to rely on obsolety warships to defend their territories.
Three weeks ago the ASEAN summit failed to produce a common line against China´s ambitions, mainly because Cambodia´s president refused to join the other ASEAN countries. Cambodia´s president Hun Sen is a former member of the ultra-Maoist Khmer Rouge and currently Cambodia is China´s closest ally in the region, receiving billions of $$$.
Burma (Myanmar), which was previously China´s closest supporter, has turned away from China and democatized itself.
Apparently one reason was that the population noticed more and more that China wasn´t really interested in a partner, but just a source for cheap raw materials and a dumping ground for her products.

Two weeks ago China p#ssed off most countries in the region by printing a map in it´s new passports, which showed Chinese territory including all territorial claims. This also alienated India, because China claims two Indian provinces. Also India is involved in a cooperation with Vietnam to explore oil fields off the southern coast on Vietnam, which China also claims. India has announced to base warships in the South China Sea to protect her interests.
Singapore is worried about an announcement by China that the Chinese navy can stop any ship passing through the seas China claims (practically the whole South China Sea), therefore disrupting the traffic to their huge cobtainedr port.
So now there is an alliance forming of India, Singapore, the Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Japan and the US (who would have thought so 40 years ago?), plus possibly South Korea.
China sees this as an attempt by the US to encircle it, but so far has refused any involvement of the UN (which has produced a map, in which the resources of the South China Sea would be shared among the bordering countries) or other multinational bodies and especially the US. Instead China insists on bilateral negotiations with the other countries, knowing very well that China´s military dwarfs any of the other smasller countries.
Hardliners in the Chinese miltary have already threatened with war as well.

I think the next hot spot will be inj South East Asia. IMO at the moment it is only the presence of the US Navy, which keeps China at bay. I wonder though if the presence of one or two American attack submarines in the contested waters could effectively neutralize the threat imposed by the new Chinese aircraft carrier.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:33 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 36):

So the Su-33 is just the "navalized" version of the Su-27......with an arresting hook, beefed up structure, folding wings, and canards ? Thanks GP and Acheron..........I just learned something I didn't realize ! To tell the truth, I wasn't even aware that the Russians had any folding wing A/C OR tail hooks.

Pretty much. To be accurate, the aircraft pictured is actually a Shenyang J-15 (ie a Chinese copy of the Su-33). But yes, the Russians do have folding wing/tailhook equipped aircraft for both their current carrier, the Kuznetsov, as well as the aircraft carrier that was in development by the Soviets at the time the Union dissolved, the Ulyanovsk. Navalized versions of the Su-25, the MiG-29 (the MiG-29K) exist as well as an AEW aircraft (the Yak-44) which never got past the full-scale mockup phase as development. The MIg-29K, in addition to being used by the Russians, will also be used by the Indians assuming Vikramaditya (the ex-Gorshkov) ever actually enters service for them
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:19 pm

Here is some more information about China´s territorial claims:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JS4VZbCWj8

and

Quote:
Burma, Laos, Northern India, Vietnam, Nepal, Bhutan, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, the Ryukyu Islands, 300 islands of the South China, East China and Yellow Seas, as well as Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, Taiwan, South Kazakhstan, the Afghan province of Bahdashan, Transbaikalia and the Far East to South Okhotsk - here is the complete list of areas that, according to Zedong, were lost due to the fall of the Qing empire. All of these countries and regions combined exceed the territory of modern China. Not all complaints are voiced by the Government of China in the international arena, but within the country the imperialist ambitions have not been lost, but rather, are actively promoted.

(From Pravda http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/...121658-china_territorial_claims-0/)

No wonder the other countries are nervous!

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):
The biggest problem is that it really only works for high thrust aircraft. You can make it work for fighters. You can use it to drastically improve the take off performance of VSTOL aircraft. What you generally can't do is make it get say an E-2 airborne.

Not sure what your point in the above is. E-2C can "deck launch" (non-catapult) from current CVN angle decks. It is just much safer for all concerned to catapult launch the "Hummer" --besides being easier on flight deck operations. The ramp would make very little difference to an E-2C style "deck launch."
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
justinlee
Topic Author
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting Aar90 (Reply 40):
Not sure what your point in the above is. E-2C can "deck launch" (non-catapult) from current CVN angle decks. It is just much safer for all concerned to catapult launch the "Hummer" --besides being easier on flight deck operations. The ramp would make very little difference to an E-2C style "deck launch."

It's true. Actually the turboprop can take off with engine off, considering the wind over deck   .The Chinese vision E-2, JZY-1, is ready to test on CV16 Liaoning. It's based on Y-7, a modification of An-24. Here is one picture of JZY-1.

 
studedave
Posts: 462
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:21 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:30 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 36):
because he was a NW, the only billets for sea duty for his rate was carriers

During my 20 years in the NAVY- I never heard of that rate- what does an 'NW' do?
Maybe it's an old one- you did mention the Forrestal...   
But she was still around when I first joined, so that is weird...?

Quoting Geezer (Reply 36):
and you have a disaster like happened on Nimitz

Wait, what happened on the Nimitz?




StudeDave
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 28):
While the US has a great history of military innovation, things would look totally different if we weren't up to some forthright stealing and imitation.


True enough. The angled deck, steam catapult and the optical landing system all British inventions.. Although I think the USN borrowed them.  
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
Two weeks ago China p#ssed off most countries in the region by printing a map in it´s new passports, which showed Chinese territory including all territorial claims. This also alienated India, because China claims two Indian provinces
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
IMO at the moment it is only the presence of the US Navy, which keeps China at bay.


Someone recently said the US government should send a thank you note to the Chinese government over it's handling of it's neighbors. I don'k think the warming of relations between the US and India or the US Navy making port calls to Vietnam is just a coincidence.

Quoting Aar90 (Reply 40):
Not sure what your point in the above is. E-2C can "deck launch" (non-catapult) from current CVN angle decks. It is just much safer for all concerned to catapult launch the "Hummer" --besides being easier on flight deck operations. The ramp would make very little difference to an E-2C style "deck launch."


Wonder what the difference is in MTW between a ski jump launch and a cat launch.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
bigjku
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:51 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting Aar90 (Reply 40):

Not sure what your point in the above is. E-2C can "deck launch" (non-catapult) from current CVN angle decks. It is just much safer for all concerned to catapult launch the "Hummer" --besides being easier on flight deck operations. The ramp would make very little difference to an E-2C style "deck launch."

There is a huge difference between can and should. As you say with enough deck you can get something like that airborne. The question is with what amount of fuel can you do it. I agree you could do it with the right wind, ship speed, take-off weight and clearing enough deck space for the run up. But the larger point is that it is pretty sub-optimal and those problems would still exist for aircraft types that were similar to the A-6 or S-3 if those type of capabilities were deemed necessary again. Catapults give you a much wider array of aircraft options and operational flexibility.

In regards to the E-2 in particular I believe the phrase used by Northrup was along the lines of "yes but at a somewhat reduced capability level". It was really explored for the Indian Navy if I remember right and I recall there being rumors of endurance in low-wind conditions dropping from around 5 hours to more like 1-2 hours because of MTOW limits imposed by that operational model. So yes it can be done. But it would not be really smart.
 
justinlee
Topic Author
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 44):
There is a huge difference between can and should.

For experiments, that's fine. Remember the chinese government still calls Liaoning an Experimental Platform.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:37 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 44):
In regards to the E-2 in particular I believe the phrase used by Northrup was along the lines of "yes but at a somewhat reduced capability level". It was really explored for the Indian Navy if I remember right and I recall there being rumors of endurance in low-wind conditions dropping from around 5 hours to more like 1-2 hours because of MTOW limits imposed by that operational model. So yes it can be done. But it would not be really smart.

Not sure who you are citing, but I was manning up a MTOW E-2C (52,500#) for a deck launch when the injured person I was to carry off to a hospital... "expired." There is no MTOW limit for an E-2C/D performing a deck launch on the angle deck of any USN CVN. The primary downside is the danger. There is a considerable time period during the deck run where the plane can no longer stop on the available "runway" (V1) and has not yet reached flying speed (V2). During that time period if an engine failed the plane would not survive the ditching.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: First Landing And Takeoff From Plan CV-16 Liaoning

Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting justinlee (Reply 45):
For experiments, that's fine. Remember the chinese government still calls Liaoning an Experimental Platform.

Yeah, and we all remember how the Varyag was only going to be a floating casino when it was purchased...

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests