fly828
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China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:10 pm

China's new Y-20 plane has a few pics leaked on a Chinese forum, see link: http://bbs.wforum.com/wmf/bbsviewer.php?trd_id=202954

it will serve the similar role as C-17 and IL-76, waiting for more clearer pictures to see the detail.
 
justinlee
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:48 pm

Y-20 is taking low speed taxi test now. It will take its first flight soon.
 
connies4ever
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:11 pm

Certainly looks like a C-17 planform. Not sure about the size, but seems comparable. Compliments to the Chinese intelligence community.
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ptrjong
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:47 pm

Looks more like a underpowered jet A400M to me.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
Compliments to the Chinese intelligence community.

A military transport with a big fuselage, a high wing and tail, and four engines. Yes, the Chinese could never have come up with that concept on their own  
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
wingman
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:05 pm

I'd wager they could come up with it on their own. But I seriously doubt they did.
 
Acheron
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:12 pm

I know they are blurry pictures, but from here it seems they are using the Il-76's D30 engines on it.
 
g38
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:16 am

Looks to me like a C-17 with the nose of an An-70 grafted on. Can't wait to see clearer pictures.
 
fly828
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:13 am

Honestly, even if it did get benefit from it's intelligent capability, it's still nothing shame but a great achievement for Chinese aviation industry. Let's be honest, either USSR or USA, who wasn't interested to steal technology from each other through their own spying act? MIG 15 vs F86, Concord vs Tu-144,VC-10 vs Il-62.....,this is the game played always in that way. It's just the matter now china becomes a player more and more apparently. It does not matter we like the fact or not, it's happening. We here often blame Chinese as a copy car of anything, but the other side is you have to respect Chinese has strong and even super capability in its very balanced industrial base and solid education base in science and engineering to support------when they produce something like airplane, we blame them copy cat, when they have world' no 1 dam, we blame them destroying environment, when they have the world's #1 high speed network completed in the shortest time period, we blame something else.....but never fairly admit their achievement in the matter itself.

The Y-20 is at it's very early stage as the project, the Chinese government is openly announcing spending billions of dollar to conquer the engine challenge, that is, to develop a reliable new engine to power it's large aircrafts. D30 is just a temporary solution before the new home developed engine gets certified. Eventually, Y-20 will be stretched in length to be more capable as well.
 
justinlee
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 5):
I know they are blurry pictures, but from here it seems they are using the Il-76's D30 engines on it.

It is D30 indeed. They may also use PS90 in the future.
 
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 5):

I know they are blurry pictures, but from here it seems they are using the Il-76's D30 engines on it.

You appear to be correct. It would be interesting to see fuselage dimensions, however it certainly appears to be a derivative of their Y-8/AN-12 projects (Y-8 is still in production, 2 were just delivered to Venezuela). Almost like they mixed an AN-12 with an IL-76.
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ptrjong
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
who wasn't interested to steal technology from each other through their own spying act? MIG 15 vs F86, Concord vs Tu-144,VC-10 vs Il-62....

Of course there's espionage, but that doesn't mean these aircraft were copies of each other in any meaningful way.

The Y-20 has a very conventional configuration for an airlifter and it's clearly in a different class than the C-17 - Spacepope even suggests it's only An-12 size.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 10):

To be clear, I was just thinking the nose looks like their AN-12 knockoff. I saw rough drawings later today suggesting that the fuselage was IL-76 length but wider, sorta fitting in the C-2 to A-400M size sweet spot. I think we will see better pics pretty soon, if the J-31 is any indication.
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Francoflier
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:54 pm

I don't think it looks like a C-17, more like an An-70 with jets.

And it's not like there's a wide choice of design options when it comes to military airlifters with rough field capability.
The basic design is always the same: high wing, negative dihedral, T-tail, landing gear in pods, rear ramp, etc...

I am guessing there was some help from russian or ukranian manufacturers.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
justinlee
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12):
I am guessing there was some help from russian or ukranian manufacturers.

China aviation industrial group acquired a team of Antonov experts. And the previous model of Y-20 is largely based on An-70. But the current model is modified a lot.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting justinlee (Reply 13):

Thanks!

I was right about the antonov genes then..
Is it the size of an AN-70?
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justinlee
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):
Thanks!

I was right about the antonov genes then..
Is it the size of an AN-70?

There is a rumor says actually Y-20 is An70-600 Jets. The frame is based on An70-600, but the engines are D30/PS90.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting justinlee (Reply 15):
There is a rumor says actually Y-20 is An70-600 Jets

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vyacheslav Smigunov



That seems to make sense, for Antonov too.
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Kiwirob
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting justinlee (Reply 15):
There is a rumor says actually Y-20 is An70-600 Jets. The frame is based on An70-600, but the engines are D30/PS90.

Which was mentioned by GlobalSecurity.org some time ago.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/y-xx-antonov.htm
 
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Francoflier
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:35 pm

That ought to be a nice freighter. Can't wait for clearer pictures of it.
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kc135topboom
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:40 pm

Capacity is suppose to be 60 tonnes, about half way between the 37 tonne A-400M and the 77.5 tonne C-17A.

Here is what wiki says about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-20
 
neutronstar73
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:02 pm

Transport aircraft really can't be to different in design, although I'm sure China copied many elements of both US and Rus aircraft. You could design an airplane to load a tank from the side and be completely different from established designs, but why?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:07 pm

I prefer to compare gross weights.

C-130J: 79 tonnes
A400M: 141 tonnes
An-70: 145 tonnes
Il-76 with D30 engines: 170 tonnes
Il-76 with PS-90 engines: 195 tonnes
C-17: 265 tonnes

[Edited 2012-12-27 14:14:21]
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
PC12Fan
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 3):
A military transport with a big fuselage, a high wing and tail, and four engines. Yes, the Chinese could never have come up with that concept on their own

Hey, you know what they say... imitation is the highest form of flattery!   
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
justinlee
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 22):
Hey, you know what they say... imitation is the highest form of flattery!   

And, go the way of the U.S., leave U.S. no way to go.  
 
geekydude
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:23 am

FLIB 152 'heavy' low approach...Caution wake turbulance!
 
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Francoflier
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:28 am

Yeah. Okay.
That doesn't look much like an An-70 after all.
I eat my words...
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alberchico
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:13 pm

Here's the best pic so far:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attac...p?attachmentid=211758&d=1359274330


http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/758378.shtml

[Edited 2013-01-27 09:14:46]

Here's a good vid of the flight from the company airfield:

http://news.cntv.cn/2013/01/27/VIDE1359263529914653.shtml


[Edited 2013-01-27 09:16:41]
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kaneporta1
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:21 pm

Is it me or this thing looks like a 4-engine version of the Kawasaki C-2?

I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
breiz
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:33 pm

From the video, it looks that upon landing the horizontal tailplane oscillates around its connection to the fin.
Am I right, and if yes, is that normal for a T tail to behave like that?
 
fly828
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:31 pm

C-2 does not look like Y-20 that much to me, after all C-2 is only capable of 37 tons' payload while Y-20 has 66 tons, according to Chinese official data. No comparison at close.

I think C-17, IL-76 and Y-20 is one tier, and C-2, A400M is the other.
 
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Aesma
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:21 pm

Well, we'll see if it has that much capability when a tank will be flying in it. What China's and Russia's industries lack the most are competitive engines, and a first flight with an old engine (just like their new fighter) doesn't give much confidence in their ability to close the gap.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sprout5199
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:36 am

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
Honestly, even if it did get benefit from it's intelligent capability, it's still nothing shame but a great achievement for Chinese aviation industry. Let's be honest, either USSR or USA, who wasn't interested to steal technology from each other through their own spying act? MIG 15 vs F86, Concord vs Tu-144,VC-10 vs Il-62

I would disagree, the Mig 15 was a shock to the US, I don't think there was any copying involved, with the exception of the British engines. The VC=10 vs the Il-62, the Concorde vs the Tu-144, and many others, yes. Hell I even read some stories that when the Tu-4 was copied, that nobody was brave enough to "not copy" the rudder pedals, so they even said "Boeing" on them. Coping is fine to "catch up" but by the time you "catch up" the world has pasted you by. This sort of looks like the YC-15 in my opinion. Its one thing to copy, but another to design your own. The US does copy, however, we also reverse engineer it to see why it is better. I think that is why our defense spending is so much. We do look at what else everybody is making, see how we can improve it, and call it our own(Carrier decks anyone?). But I don't think there has been anything that we "copied". If China thinks that they can "copy" their way to be a global power, then they have a rude awaking coming. To think they can send their best and brightest minds here to learn, but to never let them be free thinkers(which would be the down fall of communist China) is just asking for the best set of copiers in the world

Just my opinion

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Acheron
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
Concord vs Tu-144

Hardly.

Quoting fly828 (Reply 7):
We here often blame Chinese as a copy car of anything, but the other side is you have to respect Chinese has strong and even super capability in its very balanced industrial base and solid education base in science and engineering to support

Thing is, for every thing USA or the Soviets copied from each other, there were dozens of original designs, solutions and materials, unlike China, where pretty much the entirety of their hardware its either a derivative of a foreign design or an outright copy.

This guarantees they stay behind on the curve, as shown by their issues with the WS-10 engine, a derivative made out of a copy of a CFM56 core and their Flanker clones, who despite being more modern, haven't been able to match the originals in Chinese service and even their own J-10A.

Of course, most of it being a copy of an existing design allows for quick development times that look impressive to the outside world.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting fly828 (Reply 29):
I think C-17, IL-76 and Y-20 is one tier,

Yes, definitely the offspring of a forbidden encounter between a C-17 and an Il-76...

Quoting kaneporta1 (Reply 27):
Is it me or this thing looks like a 4-engine version of the Kawasaki C-2?

It does look familiar indeed. There is some of the 'form follows function' to that, and I also believe that the C-2 borrowed some design cues from the C-17 as well, didn't it?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
fly828
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:40 am

'It does look familiar indeed. There is some of the 'form follows function' to that, and I also believe that the C-2 borrowed some design cues from the C-17 as well, didn't it?'

---when we discuss any military project in China, such as Y-20, we should always keep another thing in mind that is, you may use "borrow" the design from US, because countries like Japan and India....do have the access to matured US technology to intergrate to "their" own product, look at Japan's F-2---do we call it a copy to F-16? when we look at India's LCA, from avitronics to engine, how much were really developed by itself? and we are openly "share"technology with these countries.

what about China? how much we can openly sell to China, or really, how much China can openly buy from us? then, if not, for a country as major as China is, would give up it's ambition to acquire some equiptment simply because somebody else has already inovated some concept proved to be successful? of course not, reverse engineering is certainly the result of many policies of our own.

when saying copy, honestly I don't think aircraft will be something easy to copied, it can only be copied or, reverse engineered by some country who itself has very solid tech and engineering capability, which China is certainly at the top of that group.

My whole point is, Y-20 seems to be a real success for chinese aircraft engineering, and we should all welcom it to the stage. With very limited access to the resource and support from the west, it's take off deserves a big congratulation.
 
dlednicer
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:12 am

This photo got accepted today:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © goneless

 
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seahawk
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:53 am

It is a nice design, it just needs better engines.
 
Acheron
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RE: China's New Y-20 Pictures On Internet

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:31 pm

Quoting fly828 (Reply 34):
do have the access to matured US technology to intergrate to "their" own product, look at Japan's F-2---do we call it a copy to F-16? when we look at India's LCA, from avitronics to engine, how much were really developed by itself? and we are openly "share"technology with these countries.

The F-2 is a copy/derivative of the F-16. The LCA is a completely different matter.

Thing is, unlike China, neither Japan nor India go around trying to convince everybody that their aeronautic industry is "generations ahead of that of Russia and the US" while churning out copies of 50's and 60's designs, nor do they try to convince people that their copies are completely "indigenous design".

Quoting fly828 (Reply 34):
when saying copy, honestly I don't think aircraft will be something easy to copied, it can only be copied or, reverse engineered by some country who itself has very solid tech and engineering capability,

It isn't easy, but it is far more easy than doing your own R&D for materials, designs, etc. as shown by their many issues with the WS-10 engine(despite having a CFM56 core).

Quoting fly828 (Reply 34):
With very limited access to the resource and support from the west, it's take off deserves a big congratulation.

Thats why they resort to "unwilling support" from the west, like hacking. Also, they get plenty of support from Israel and France.

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