sebolino
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India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:13 pm

It seems that India is interested to buy more rafale fighters : 63 more than previously planned !


http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/entrep...-189-rafale-a-dassault_369079.html
 
connies4ever
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:53 pm

All well and good, and congratulations to Dassault.

- I don't expect India to pay full list for these a/c, or else industrial offsets of >100%, since France is desperate to export the a/c.
- Relatively few will be built in France, most will come off an FAL at HAL. Probably the first batch will be in knocked-down kit form, then HAL will build up their capability.
- Considering the way the Indian bureaucracy works, by the time the Indian Rafales achieve IOC, France will be retiring theirs - to be replaced by Tanaris/Neuron, or successors.
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sebolino
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:26 pm

It could be the trigger for other clients which didn't want to be the first to buy the plane ...
And it's a good sign for future enhancements.
 
Devilfish
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:38 pm

http://static.lexpansion.com/medias/...e-militaire-le-14-juillet-2012.jpg


English report here.....

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Quote:
"'The first aircraft will be delivered three years after signature of the contract,' the source added.

An industry expert said the time lag reflected India’s request for two-seater jets rather than the one-seater model that Dassault currently produces.

India has insisted that the deal involves significant technology transfer and that Indian suppliers secure work equivalent to around half of the value of the contract.

'The negotiations for off-sets are progressing well,' the source added.

The conclusion of the deal has been repeatedly delayed, with India having initially set a target of the end of last year, which slipped to March 31, 2013, the end of the current fiscal year."


Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
I don't expect India to pay full list for these a/c, or else industrial offsets of >100%

Dangling the possibility of an additional order and bargaining very hard to lock down the price and offsets before signing.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
since France is desperate to export the a/c.

Their desperation is probably much less than before they were selected   .

Quote:
"French defense sources said last week that was unlikely to be met but voiced confidence it would finally be done, a stance echoed by Khurshid on his visit to Paris.

'We know good French wine takes time to mature and so do good contracts,' Khurshid said after a meeting with French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius. 'The contract details are being worked out. A decision has already been taken; just wait a little for the cork to pop and you’ll have some good wine to taste'."


Quoting connies4ever (Reply 1):
Considering the way the Indian bureaucracy works, by the time the Indian Rafales achieve IOC, France will be retiring theirs - to be replaced by Tanaris/Neuron, or successors.

Would have been just right had they ordered the A400M transport.   
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Aesma
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:17 pm

I guess that when the buyer wants to have an assembly line, technology transfers etc., at some point if the price increases they're too committed to back down.
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wb556
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:06 pm

Are there any renderings of a two seater out there?
 
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Francoflier
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:27 pm

Sure.

Here is a fairly accurate rendering of what a two-seater Rafale would look like:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marinus Dirk Tabak



 

It's great to see India commiting to the program. Seeing concrete operational results on the battlefield probably did help them comfort their decision.
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Devilfish
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:51 pm

Up close and personal.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Arpit Agrawal
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Vishal Jolapara - Indian Aviation Photographers



Impressive loadout.....

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Photo © Wagner Damasio - Cavok Brasil Team
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Alan Cordina


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Photo © Jeremy Gould



[Edited 2013-01-17 16:07:21]
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flagon
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:32 am

Quoting sebolino (Thread starter):
63 more than previously planned !

If I remember right, the initial requirement was 126 planes but the possibility of procuring 60 more planes has been suggested since the begining?
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sebolino
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:24 am

Sure, it was 126.

I don't know if it's related, but after the beginning of the operations in Mali, India has showed its interest for 63 additional planes.

[Edited 2013-01-18 02:25:31]
 
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Francoflier
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:07 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 9):
but after the beginning of the operations in Mali

They wouldn't have been that reactive. Definitely not the way Indian politics work.

Now, Libya. That might have helped its case...
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ptrjong
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:00 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 9):

What does Mali prove about the Rafale?
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HAWK21M
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:55 am

French Avionics showing the way  
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sebolino
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:18 am

I wonder if other clients will follow.

For the moment, UAE and Brasil are still possible clients, it seems ...

[Edited 2013-01-21 03:20:49]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:38 pm

Speaking to IAF persons....this was a fair choice, based on quality/requirements & price.
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seahawk
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:31 am

Delays because Dassault does not produce two.seaters? That sounds strange.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:19 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 15):
Delays because Dassault does not produce two.seaters?

I doubt the accuracy of the article on that point. They're probably still ironing out technical details. The Indian specced Rafales will likely differ from the French AF ones.
The Indian 2 seaters will probably require additional features that the original 2 seater doesn't have, especially since most of the Indian fleet will be based around that model.

Interestingly, the French AF initially only wanted the 2 seater for training and expected the highly automated systems to let one pilot easily carry out any mission. They were very doubtful of the use of the second guy on combat missions.

Now it seems that operational experience has once again proved the value of having a second man on board on complex missions, especially air to ground stuff in a hostile environment and that the 2 seater has proven its value as a lot more than a trainer.

That said, other than the extra seat, modified ECS, less fuel and more weight, I don't think there is any difference between the 1 and 2 seaters.
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HAWK21M
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:07 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Now it seems that operational experience has once again proved the value of having a second man on board on complex missions, especially air to ground stuff in a hostile environment and that the 2 seater has proven its value as a lot more than a trainer.

It would mean a compromise on the range......
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LegRoomPlease
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:22 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 13):
I wonder if other clients will follow.

For the moment, UAE and Brasil are still possible clients, it seems ...

Your post got me thinking. Brazil seems to be much more likely to become a customer for the Rafale than UAE, due to to my assumption that there are still alot of ex Pakistan airforce personnel on some sort of duty in UAE. Conflict of interest for the Indian airforce. I mean why buy something that your potential enemy will get a chance to exemine, remember the Mig-21 defection from Iraq to Israel.

Brazil, on the other hand, could have chosen for the F-18 and I actually thought they might be able to get a good price plus maybe even tech transfer due to the Chevron fiasco there, but after the latest Snowden revelations about NSA spying on Rousseff I doubt that Brazil will buy anything from the US.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:12 pm

Estimates are total deal is worth $20 Billion. First 16 will be French built. Remaining will be assembled in India. I think the major concern Dassault has was about HAL's work load. HAL is working on way too many projects same time and Dassault is concerned that Rafael delivery schedule will suffer.
 
mrg
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 6):
Here is a fairly accurate rendering of what a two-seater Rafale would look like:

My goodness, that looks so, er.......real  
Quoting LegRoomPlease (Reply 18):
I mean why buy something that your potential enemy will get a chance to exemine

The Spanish gave the Argentinians technical information about the Harrier. It didn't help them. The Brits knew all they needed to know about the Exocet. Didn't help them much either.
 
LegRoomPlease
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:33 pm

Hi mrg,

I knew that the French stopped the delivery of Exocet's, if I remember correctly they went through Chile, plus they gave the Brits the radar codes or something like that.

Quoting mrg (Reply 20):
The Spanish gave the Argentinians technical information about the Harrier.

I didn't know this, was it just tech info or actual pilot tactics etc?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting mrg (Reply 20):

They already had the brochures. When their aircraft carrier was delivered from the Netherlands in 1969, the Harrier GR.I was demonstrated on board by Hawker Siddeley.
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fbwless
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:01 pm

http://www.english.rfi.fr/asia-pacif...led-again-indian-negotiators-death

Seems like negotiations have stalled, again. You have to wonder if this deal will ever be finalized.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:14 am

You gotta love India.

Negociations take so long that the poor negiotator had time to pass away.
Of course by the time his replacement is found and up to speed, elections will come around and the government will change, probably imposing a further review and delay on the whole thing.

Dealing with the Indian government around these kinds of deals has to be the most frustrating thing. Ever.
It would push even John Leahy over the edge of sanity...
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art
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:53 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 24):
Of course by the time his replacement is found and up to speed, elections will come around and the government will change, probably imposing a further review and delay on the whole thing.

It helps that there is no AMCA due to come into service say 2020. Without that there is no alternative to Rafale as a medium weight fighter so a new administration would have little choice but to continue negotiations with Dassault. What would there be to review? The insistence that Dassault be responsible for the performance of local enterprises? Now that would change things.
 
india1
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:40 pm

And then we have this report.... so in 5 months, we should have a done deal?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...orce-says/articleshow/24303438.cms
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:40 am

How does the Rafale compare to the Eurofighter, F-15, F-22, etc? Is this a top-of-the-line product or a second-line aircraft? What are some of the advantages the Rafale may have over its contemporaries?
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india1
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 27):
How does the Rafale compare to the Eurofighter, F-15, F-22, etc? Is this a top-of-the-line product or a second-line aircraft? What are some of the advantages the Rafale may have over its contemporaries?

I dont think the Rafale measures up to the F22, simply because its a half a generation earlier and is designed to be smaller/less capable due to a different mission. Also, it was never on the table - the US infact, only offered the F35 after they realised that India wasn't looking at any of their other offerings.The Eurofighter was in the mix till the very end, though.

The final decision depended on a whole host of parameters, incl threat perception, LFC, tech tansfer, no veto clause in the event of hostilities, etc. If the Rafale is meant to take on more imminent Pakistani/Chinese nd the PAK-FA the Chinese stealth, it makes sense. The US is gradually making inroads into the IAF with the C17, Hercules, Apache, Chinook et al, but a frontline multirole fighter a la F35 will perhaps have to wait.
 
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seahawk
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:27 am

F-22 is a different league, but Rafale soundly defeated all other offerings in the contest including Eurofighter.
 
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 29):
F-22 is a different league, but Rafale soundly defeated all other offerings in the contest including Eurofighter.

In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter? Cost, performance, ability, range, etc?
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TheSonntag
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:52 pm

Its cheaper than Eurofighter, thats all.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 29):
but Rafale soundly defeated all other offerings in the contest including Eurofighter.

Eurofighter also made to final round. India is more interested in technology transfer, local assembly and what % of content is subject to sanctions. I think French did better on these terms along with the price.

US has a tendency to bid with F-16s first then try to offer a new generation, not a good strategy.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:03 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter?

I would say versatility. The fact that the Rafale has been succesfully combat proven has helped.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 31):
Its cheaper than Eurofighter, thats all.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
along with the price.

Oh, that's right. If it's European, especially if it's French, no one would buy it if it wasn't dirt cheap or given away altogether.
I read that on every other thread here on A.net yet I keep forgetting.
 
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comorin
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:59 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
US has a tendency to bid with F-16s first then try to offer a new generation, not a good strategy.

  So the US is in a habit of doing this? I did not know that. Also, why bring up the F-16, it was never under consideration. The IAF required a two-engine MMRCA, which the F-16 is not. Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly?
 
queb
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 33):
Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter?

I would say versatility. The fact that the Rafale has been succesfully combat proven has helped.

Definitely the most versatile fighter available right now, including a (real) naval variant. It's sad that Canada will not consider this aircraft...
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 34):
Also, why bring up the F-16, it was never under consideration. The IAF required a two-engine MMRCA, which the F-16 is not. Perhaps I am not understanding you correctly?
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 33):
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 31):
Its cheaper than Eurofighter, thats all.
Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 32):
along with the price.

Oh, that's right. If it's European, especially if it's French, no one would buy it if it wasn't dirt cheap or given away altogether.

Not understanding your rant. The finalists were Eurofighter and Rafale, and Rafale was chosen on the basis of price, local manufacture and technology transfer. In this case it was the Eurofighter that was a lot more expensive than the Rafale.
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ElPistolero
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter? Cost, performance, ability, range, etc?

This article does a fairly good job of summarizing the Eurofighter's shortcomings.

"Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Delhi, was the country’s wish for a radar and set of weapons which already exist on Rafale — but which are not currently present on Typhoon.

The French jet can launch a wide suite of smart weapons including Scalp, an air-launched cruise missile, Exocet, an anti-ship missile, and AASM, a precision-guided bomb with extended “stand-off” capability allowing it to be dropped from further away, reducing the risk to the pilot from anti-aircraft fire.

It also has an advanced reconnaissance pod and the latest electronic scanned array radar. This combination of capabilities proved highly effective in the recent war over Libya.

Typhoon currently has none of these things. The RAF badly wants the aircraft to have Scalp's British equivalent Storm Shadow — along with the anti-tank Brimstone missile, a reconnaissance pod, and the radar.

These capabilities, apart from the radar, are currently available on the RAF’s Tornado jets and were heavily used by the British in Libya. But their arrival on Typhoon has been delayed by defence cuts."

Proven versus potential is the best way to describe it.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ce-ahead-with-Indian-jet-deal.html
 
Powerslide
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:58 am

Quoting queb (Reply 35):
Definitely the most versatile fighter available right now.

Won't be in 2025 once the RCAF plans to start real operations with a new fighter (F-35). Choosing fighter jets for Air Forces isn't a popularity contest that is won via comments from the internet.
 
queb
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:12 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 39):
Won't be in 2025

Lol! last time, it was 2016...

[Edited 2013-10-21 04:14:44]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:26 pm

From what I understand, the Eurofighter was optimised for air to air combat and other roles (e.g. CAS and bombing) secondary, while the Rafale was designed as an allrounder, for both airforce and naval service, which can hold it´s own in an air to air scrap.

Jan
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Powerslide
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 40):
Lol! last time, it was 2016

Lol! Operations, not acquisitions.
 
bilgerat
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:01 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 30):
In what ways did it soundly defeat the Eurofighter? Cost, performance, ability, range, etc?

Basically Rafale is a more mature platform than Typhoon. The French were smart enough to press ahead integrating stuff like full A-G capabilities and AESA on Rafale, whereas the Eurofighter consortium was stuck in the mud for many years due to the nature of the way the aircraft was funded and developed.

Typhoon is finally getting its act together in terms of AESA radar and integrating new A-G weapons, but it might be too late to save the export prospects of the Typhoon.

I think going forward we're going to see a lot more collaboration between the UK and France in developing new equipment.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:16 pm

When does the 1st Rafale fly in IAF Colours.....
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queb
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:10 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):

When does the 1st Rafale fly in IAF Colours.....

The contract is not signed yet.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:25 am

Quoting queb (Reply 45):
The contract is not signed yet.

What exactly is the delay.......
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
queb
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:49 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 46):
Quoting queb (Reply 45):
The contract is not signed yet.

What exactly is the delay.......

Negociations, bureaucracy, etc

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...ndia-defence-idUSBRE99G0OG20131017
 
Max Q
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:59 am

Eurofighter is ugly.



Rafale is beautiful, simple as that.
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sturmovik
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RE: India To Buy Up To 189 Rafales

Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:49 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 48):
Eurofighter is ugly.

In it's basic form it's pretty in its own right, though I agree the Rafale is prettier, such amazing curves. Also, Eurofighter are working hard at ugly-fying their bird, the version offered to UAE with conformal fuel tanks is just hideous.
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