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Alsatian
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Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:44 pm

Hello,

I have noticed that the Republique Francaise airliners do not carry visible registration or code on their fuselage. There are several FA7X or F900s in the fleet so how to recognize them ? Is it also permitted ?


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SOBHI51
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:18 pm

Republique Francaise is not an airline, it's a government/military transports.
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offloaded
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:36 pm

I thought it was mandatory for all aircraft including military to display a reg/serial number.
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penguins
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:10 pm

If I am not mistaken, WN's New Mexico One has no visible registration.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting penguins (Reply 3):
If I am not mistaken, WN's New Mexico One has no visible registration.

It has a visible registration it is just in that shadow colored font. All of their registrations that are on a white background are like that.
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:22 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):

I thought it was mandatory for all aircraft including military to display a reg/serial number.

its only mandatory for civilian or paramilitary aircraft to carry a registration.

Military/Government there is no rule.

Still I find it odd that there is NO external reference number on the aircraft, must make ground handling confusing when there are more than 1 of a type at the same location.
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hivue
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:23 pm

Apparently no reg displayed on these guys. I see them fly overhead a couple of times a week from my office --


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Aesma
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:30 pm

Well, do they have a reg that could be displayed ?

Do the VC-25 have regs ?
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Do the VC-25 have regs ?

They have their ship number on the tail in black
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 5):
Still I find it odd that there is NO external reference number on the aircraft, must make ground handling confusing when there are more than 1 of a type at the same location.

I'm sure there is something - but you probably need to be within 20-40 feet of the aircraft to see it.

Unmarked aircraft are used for security purposes to prevent tracking of an aircraft. Back in the 60s, a USN squadron I was assigned to a decade later used to not mark their aircraft. They also use fake identification callsigns / numbers to prevent tracking of the aircraft.

Until the day one of the ELINT birds landed at Bangkok and used the identification of another EC-121 which had actually landed at the airport an hour earlier.
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 5):
its only mandatory for civilian or paramilitary aircraft to carry a registration.

Military/Government there is no rule.

No registration number on the Blue Angels. I don't think that "7" would be considered a registration number, even for the military.

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n53614
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 10):
No registration number on the Blue Angels.

The Blues all have their Bureau Numbers right under the horizontal stabilizer.
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rutankrd
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:18 pm

Many US Navy Orions have Bureau Number stencilled on the inner face of the front under carriage doors and have for a decade or so.
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:48 pm

The Blue Angels do carry a bureau number, but the Thunderbirds don't display their serial number, which is a hassle when it comes to uploading T-Bird shots to this site. Making problems worse is the fact that the team numbers are decals and can be swapped around from plane to plane during the course of a tour. After one show where I took a bunch of pics, I e-mailed the team to see if they could provide the serials for each plane for the show I attended. They responded with the list I was after!
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 13):
but the Thunderbirds don't display their serial number

I saw the Thunderbirds at Red Flag 13-2 media day (23 Jan) and the jets displayed the last three digits of their S/N inside the circle on the intake instead of 1-6. Of course, during a regular Thunderbirds show, the s/n isn't visible--very frustrating indeed!
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:48 pm

I know some US planes have done this for awhile on some planes such as this classic Vision Air example...

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...gsearch=N767VA&distinct_entry=true

It used to be rumored that the Vision Air flights were used for 'CIA' flights but who knows  
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 6):

The DAL P-3s are very special aircraft and were classified for over 30 years and still remain partly classified to this day. However, it looks like there is an aircraft number on the gear door.
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viasa
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:08 pm

Newest aircraft without a registration is the Airbus A320-200 of the Kingdom of Cambodia: http://livinginpp.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/p2239379.jpg

Who now the identity of this aircraft? Could it be a former Vietnam Airlines A320-214?

(picture was taken from this artikel: http://alfredmeier.me/2013/02/23/air-force-one-of-cambodia/)
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:09 pm

Don't forget this guy:


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The registration is invisible in all the photo here on airliners.net, except for the second one I have linked above.
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:15 pm

Are we sure they have no registration?

In the past, the CIA has used aircraft that looked registration-less from a distance, when in fact the registration was painted in a color only a few shades away from the livery, and could be seen from up close only.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 5):
must make ground handling confusing when there are more than 1 of a type at the same location.

The odds of more than one Republique Francaise aircraft of the same type being in motion at the same time at the same airport are pretty small to say the least...
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:21 pm

I could be wrong but I believe the registration needs to be visible from at least 3 locations on the aircraft, rear fuselage, tail, nose gear door, over and under the wing...

EK413
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:25 pm

There's nothing more likey to make an aeroplane conspicuous than a lack of registration. It *SCREAMS* "aeroplane of interest", which is perhaps not the intention.
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 16):
it looks like there is an aircraft number on the gear door

Nose gear door? Could be. I don't see one in this picture though --


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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:34 pm

Regulatory authorities such as the FAA, CAA can issue an exemption for civilian registered airplanes to not carry visible external registration marks
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):
Are we sure they have no registration?

F-RARF for the A330 République Francaise or F-RAFA and F-RAFB for the FA7X. I was very close of a Falcon 7X (the picture in the middle right of the thread starter) three weeks ago and I couldn't found any marks. I have chosen F-RAFA when uploading the picture because that was the registration written in the flight plan.
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):
Are we sure they have no registration?

In the past, the CIA has used aircraft that looked registration-less from a distance, when in fact the registration was painted in a color only a few shades away from the livery, and could be seen from up close only.
Quoting ADent (Reply 18):
The registration is invisible in all the photo here on airliners.net, except for the second one I have linked above.

The registration N767VA is barely visible aft of the aft entry door, just ahead of the horizontal tail. The registration number is almost the same color as the upper fuselage. Use the large picture format size to see it.

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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:57 pm

Quoting AndyEastMids (Reply 23):
Regulatory authorities such as the FAA, CAA can issue an exemption for civilian registered airplanes to not carry visible external registration marks

True, but would only be in exceptional circumstances. The UK CAA, for example, will only allow it on a very restricted basis, such as for filming purposes in a specific location for a very limited timescale.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 20):
could be wrong but I believe the registration needs to be visible from at least 3 locations on the aircraft, rear fuselage, tail, nose gear door, over and under the wing...

The display of registration marks are covered in Annex 7 to the Chicago Convention and require markings on the fuselage or tail, and underwing. No requirement for top of wing or nose gear door. Some countries' regulations differ from the ICAO requirements - no underwing markings for US registered aircraft, for example.

Military and state aircraft are a different matter, they can essentially do what they like.
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting n53614 (Reply 11):
The Blues all have their Bureau Numbers right under the horizontal stabilizer.

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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 24):

F-RAFA looks like a civil registration, but it is merely a call sign in a batch given to the military.
Indeed, you won't find it here.
http://www.immat.aviation-civile.gou...r/immat/servlet/aeronef_liste.html

The military serial of this aircraft is 68, very simple and identical to the constuction number, but that's how the French system works.

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On the Falcon 50s the serial is in small print on the port side of the tailfin.

The Patrouille de France Alpha Jets also wear their F- call signs, but the serials are found on the nosewheel door.

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Aesma
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:55 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 19):
The odds of more than one Republique Francaise aircraft of the same type being in motion at the same time at the same airport are pretty small to say the least...

Why ? Even without counting their base, I can see plenty of reasons for 2 Falcons (7X, 900, 50), 2 A340, or 2 A310 flying together. Only the A330 is an orphan.
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 28):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 29):

As stated in the thread starter, my question was actually only about A330, FA7X and F900. The other aircraft types (A310, A340, FA50, AJET, RAFL, MIR2, MRF1, C130, C160, K35R, CN35, TBM7, E121...) carry a visible reg / serial / code.
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:24 pm

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 30):

But they are all military aircraft, and they all have a military serial based on the construction number, even if it's (nearly) invisible.

On the topic of legal requirements, I think military aircraft are internationally required to carry national markings, but are not required to carry any sort of registration. Russian aircraft wear only a non-unique code after all, and USAF serials only appear on the aircraft in a mutilated form  
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Alsatian
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:15 pm

Hello Peter,

Right. If you have the serial you can guess the code. If you have the reg you can get the code. If you have the code you can find the reg etc...

- Visible "registration" :


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- Visible serial and code :


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Please check a picture of Falcon 7X French Air Force, and tell me if you are able to guess which one it is.
Ok I am French but I am not on strike
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting viasa (Reply 17):
Newest aircraft without a registration is the Airbus A320-200 of the Kingdom of Cambodia:

One can easily dismiss the registration when the livery is as nice as that.   

Guess aspiring leaders have one more perk to look forward to.   
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting Alsatian (Reply 32):

Hi Alsatian,

Of course that may be a problem. But only for reggie spotters and uploaders here  
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Alsatian
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 34):
Of course that may be a problem. But only for reggie spotters and uploaders here

That is indeed a problem for us   but I thought it could also be a problem for the aviation authorities in case of incident.

Cheers

Dennis
Ok I am French but I am not on strike
 
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 10):
No registration number on the Blue Angels. I don't think that "7" would be considered a registration number, even for the military.

JohnJ does reply about the Blue Angels too - The Blue Angels have a 6 digit bureau number displayed under their horizontal stabelizers (as do all other US Navy F-18s) that are difficult to see unless you are underneath the aircraft by about 45 degrees or so. The numbers for the Blue Angels while having their F-18s have been in the 16#### such as 163844 (just a number I pulled out of my head), but something like that. I think the Blue Angel F-18s (since none are newer Super Hornets) have been in the 161### - 164### range. Some of the newest built Navy bureau numbers are up in the 168### range, which are the highest numbers so far (other than the pseudo bureau numbers the F-5 Tiger II agressors carry which are actual Air Force serial numbers made to look like a bureau number in its style).

As also JohnJ said - T-bird serial numbers are not visible. I even got close to one on display where you could climb on a ladder and look in the cockpit and I tried to see if there was a marking in the cockpit and I couldn't find it. I've just had to take guesses on some of the ones I have seen

Quoting hivue (Reply 6):
Apparently no reg displayed on these guys. I see them fly overhead a couple of times a week from my office --

Probably very small. I have seen some very tiny font serial numbers on T-1 Jayhawks and T-6 Texan IIs while at Airshows on static display that you had to walk right up to- to see. There was no way you could figure that one out from the ground unless you had an 800mm lens

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 13):
The Blue Angels do carry a bureau number, but the Thunderbirds don't display their serial number, which is a hassle when it comes to uploading T-Bird shots to this site. Making problems worse is the fact that the team numbers are decals and can be swapped around from plane to plane during the course of a tour. After one show where I took a bunch of pics, I e-mailed the team to see if they could provide the serials for each plane for the show I attended. They responded with the list I was after!

that is cool that they responded with a list for that. I noticed at one show they were flying 3 D models with 2 seats. The only D model they normally fly with is #7, but iin this case they had the number decals #1, 3 and 4 I believe which were all the 2 seaters
 
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walter2222
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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:08 am

Here's an example of the Blue Angels' registration:


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RE: Aircrafts W/o Visible Reg Or Code : Allowed?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting walter2222 (Reply 37):
Here's an example of the Blue Angels' registration:

When the horizontal stabelizer is in that position you can see it - but normally from that angle it is difficult to see. That picture was taken in 2006, I believe all of those planes are retired and they got a newer block of F-18s that are in the 163-164 range. Valiant Air Command in Titusville FL has Blue Angel #5 in their museum that I last saw fly in 2006.

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