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mayor
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Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:52 pm

Just saw this photo of the Chinese J-31 on the Airliners.net homepage and wondered if the Chinese were copying the F-22 and/or the F-35 (or both):




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tommytoyz
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:47 pm

I am certain China stole a lot of engineering data, enough to give them the confidence to try and design their own stealthy fighter. Besides the coatings to absorb signals, the shape is pretty much dictated by simple math and radar signal behavior. You want to shape the exterior so that the signals emitted from the radar do not bounce back where they originated from.

If the Chinese can give the plane the ability to produce very high kinetic energy, akin to the F-22, it'll be a real threat, even if it's not as stealthy. The reason is that even a MACH 4 missile with a target lock has a hard time getting to a plane with the amount of energy the F-22 has.

The fact they are making it a twin engine, speaks to a higher, rather than lower kinetic energy potential. Everyone basically can see what makes the F-22 a success and will try to emulate it or even improve on it, as best they can. That's only natural. The F-22 will not be top dog forever.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:05 pm

I remember hearing a story of during the Korean War, where a USAF B-29 was forced down in China and the Chinese copied it, but the engineering was off and it didn't fly very well.
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Powerslide
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:21 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
I remember hearing a story of during the Korean War, where a USAF B-29 was forced down in China and the Chinese copied it, but the engineering was off and it didn't fly very well.

That is because the Chinese need to start producing their own tech rather than try to copy others. They will never reach the level of sophistication that the US has without trial and error ON THEIR OWN.
 
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cjg225
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:33 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 3):
That is because the Chinese need to start producing their own tech rather than try to copy others. They will never reach the level of sophistication that the US has without trial and error ON THEIR OWN.

Hopefully you're right. I somewhat doubt that, though. This is the 2010s, not the 1950s. I'm sure technology has significantly increased the ability to copy other things.
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sovietjet
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 1):
The fact they are making it a twin engine, speaks to a higher, rather than lower kinetic energy potential.

This is because the J-31 is a light fighter with a purpose similar to the F-35 but the Chinese engine technology can't produce an engine as powerful as the F-35's. So they put two. The Chinese have been having trouble with engines for a long time.

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
I remember hearing a story of during the Korean War, where a USAF B-29 was forced down in China and the Chinese copied it, but the engineering was off and it didn't fly very well.

You may be thinking of World War 2 where it landed in Russia and was eventually made into the Tu-4. Which was slightly inferior in performance due to the English to metric conversion of all parts which made it slightly heavier.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
I remember hearing a story of during the Korean War, where a USAF B-29 was forced down in China and the Chinese copied it, but the engineering was off and it didn't fly very well.

Never heard of it. Was it not Russia that made their Tupolev-4 based on the B29?
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 5):
This is because the J-31 is a light fighter with a purpose similar to the F-35 but the Chinese engine technology can't produce an engine as powerful as the F-35's. So they put two. The Chinese have been having trouble with engines for a long time.

The Chinese are struggling to even license produce some of the engines that they have access to, such as the RR Spey. The Chinese haven't gotten the metallurgy down right, which is often half the battle with engine design and production. The story I am hearing is there is a lot of QC problems with the engines they are manufacturing, which is affecting production rates as engines have to be scrapped or rebuilt before they leave the factory.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:10 am

If you remove the requirement for the F-35 to have its engine farther forward than normal to accommodate the lift fan in the F-35B, it would look very much like the J-31. The vert stabs look like the YF-22s.


In defense of the Chinese 'copying', in their culture, there is no such thing as 'intellectual property'. You came up with a good idea, you were first to market with it, that is it. Dont look at it as stealing designs so much as finding alternate sources designs. It is still an inferior jet... but they have made a leap ahead in tech.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:37 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 8):
It is still an inferior jet... but they have made a leap ahead in tech.

How do you know that, it may well be better than the F-35.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 5):
You may be thinking of World War 2 where it landed in Russia and was eventually made into the Tu-4. Which was slightly inferior in performance due to the English to metric conversion of all parts which made it slightly heavier.
Quoting geekydude (Reply 6):
Never heard of it. Was it not Russia that made their Tupolev-4 based on the B29?

I have read that when the Soviets copyed the B-29 that the rudder pedals said "BOEING" as the order was to copy it, and nobody wanted to disobey Stalin's order.

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tommytoyz
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:44 pm

The J-20 and J-31 may mean there is a competition or evaluation going on....
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
How do you know that, it may well be better than the F-35.

It may not be inferior, but it seems it's designed more for a role like the F-22, not the F-35.
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ThePointblank
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 8):
If you remove the requirement for the F-35 to have its engine farther forward than normal to accommodate the lift fan in the F-35B, it would look very much like the J-31. The vert stabs look like the YF-22s.

Disagree. The main issue for the Chinese was a lack of a suitable engine for their fighters (hence the use of Russian engines and a twin-engine design otherwise they would have gone for a powerful single). You want to bury the engines deeper and further back in the fuselage as it will reduce the frontal radar signature. You can better hide the front of the engine as the engine blades are often a major source of radar reflection.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 3):
That is because the Chinese need to start producing their own tech rather than try to copy others. They will never reach the level of sophistication that the US has without trial and error ON THEIR OWN.

And of course the Americans got absolutely nothing from Peenemunde, Werner Von Braun, Frank Whittle, the Miles M.52 etc etc.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:32 pm

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 14):
And of course the Americans got absolutely nothing from Peenemunde, Werner Von Braun, Frank Whittle, the Miles M.52 etc etc.

You think there was NO trial and error, even after all of that? Alot of good men died, trying to prove many designs, LONG after the U.S. (and others) was using this technology.
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bilgerat
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:41 pm

Yes of course there was trial and error. However, it's quite disingenuous to criticise the Chinese for using other countries' ideas and technology when the US itself benefitted hugely from doing just this.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 16):
Yes of course there was trial and error. However, it's quite disingenuous to criticise the Chinese for using other countries' ideas and technology when the US itself benefitted hugely from doing just this.

Who did the US copy for the F-22...F-35?
 
dkswim
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:07 am

I remember reading that the B-29 that went to russia had a couple patches from damage (odd bullet holes) and the tu-4 had them copied as well
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:17 am

A lot of the technology we gained durring WWII from the UK like radar, jet engines to name a few was an agreement between UK and USA. UK traded info for meterial, american mass production, and allies.

USA has copied german design on a couple items over the years. U-Boats, V-1, V-2.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:59 am

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 10):
I have read that when the Soviets copyed the B-29 that the rudder pedals said "BOEING" as the order was to copy it, and nobody wanted to disobey Stalin's order.
Quoting dkswim (Reply 18):
I remember reading that the B-29 that went to russia had a couple patches from damage (odd bullet holes) and the tu-4 had them copied as well

I heard that too, might well be true given that his henchman Beria (hobbies included abducting, raping, sometimes murdering young women), was supervising the effort.
He did the same for the Soviet atomic bomb project, holding the scientists families hostage as an 'incentive' get the job done ASAP.
(Small wonder that when Stalin died, Beria did not as he had thought, succeed him, rather he was bundled off to prison and quietly executed some weeks or months later).

It is a fair point about others not being entirely clean of using others technology, in the case of the US on jet engines and aspects of designs for pioneering supersonic design, as well as UK contributions to the Manhattan Project, it was more a case of agreements on sharing of it, or technology exchanging, being unilaterally broken by the US after WW2 ended.
Which is not the same as what China is suspected of doing.

It's far from clear however if China has had to do this, or succeeded at all, for this aircraft.
(We do know that China did benefit from US military technology in the late 1980's/early 1990's.However that was supplied via Israel. Something probably that many lawmakers in Washington don't want to, or choose not to, hear about).
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:09 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 17):
Who did the US copy for the F-22...F-35?

Please don't try and use a silly strawman argument here.

Earlier in this thread you stated:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 3):
That is because the Chinese need to start producing their own tech rather than try to copy others. They will never reach the level of sophistication that the US has without trial and error ON THEIR OWN.

Which as I explained was quite disingenuous given the US has benefitted hugely from technology gained from other countries.

Or perhaps Frank Whittle travelling to General Electric with several examples of his engine in 1942 didn't kick start American jet engine development. Perhaps the Americans, British and Soviets gained nothing from the research conducted by the Germans in Peenemunde's supersonic wind tunnels. Perhaps the Americans could have put a man in orbit and got to the moon totally on their own without all those German scientists and the V-2.

Do I need to continue?

As I said, it is most disingenuous to criticise the Chinese for using technology gained from other countries when *everyone* - the US included, has always been doing it. Unless of course you want to believe that American aerospace technology got where it is today totally on its own merit and work without any innovation, input or discoveries from elsewhere?
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:51 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
(Small wonder that when Stalin died, Beria did not as he had thought, succeed him, rather he was bundled off to prison and quietly executed some weeks or months later).

Actually Beria´s execution was not so silent:

Quote:
Beria and all the other defendants were sentenced to death. When the death sentence was passed, according to Moskalenko's later account,[citation needed] Beria pleaded on his knees for mercy[31] before collapsing to the floor and wailing and crying energetically, but to no avail: the other six defendants were executed by firing squad on 23 December 1953, the same day as the trial,[32] while Beria was fatally shot through the forehead by General Batitsky after the latter stuffed a rag into Beria's mouth to silence his bawling. The body of Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria was subsequently cremated and buried around Moscow's forest.

(from Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beria
He died as a coward.

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HaveBlue
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
(from Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beria
He died as a coward.

That was an amazing, if not appalling, read. The guy was a nightmare.


On topic... while the US has obviously benefited from foriegn technology, most notably from England and Germany during and after the war respectively, i don't believe we've actually 'stolen' technology often if at all, and definitely not on the levels that the USSR and China has. The Tu-4 is an amazing example and an interesting story for anyone who hasn't read it yet.
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sovietjet
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:54 pm

Most cases it is hard to say what was copied by any country whether it is USA, USSR or China. Yes the Tu-4 was an outright copy and nobody has denied that. But just because a Tu-154 and a B-727 have a similar configuration does not mean one is a copy of the other. In that case why does nobody ever say the British copied the B-727 with the Trident? The bottom line is that in those days "copying" and "stealing" was arguably much harder. You needed spies, informants, etc... now it is all possible digitally through hacking. Is the J-31 a copy of the F-22? Most certainly not. But the nose does have a striking resemblance. I think if China did in fact manage to steal information then no doubt it has been incorporated or at least used in some way. But nobody in China will admit to this.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting mayor (Thread starter):
Just saw this photo of the Chinese J-31 on the Airliners.net homepage and wondered if the Chinese were copying the F-22 and/or the F-35 (or both):

I hope for the Chinese that they didn't copy the not up to spec aerodynamics (and numerous other problems) of the F35.
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 21):
Or perhaps Frank Whittle travelling to General Electric with several examples of his engine in 1942 didn't kick start American jet engine development. Perhaps the Americans, British and Soviets gained nothing from the research conducted by the Germans in Peenemunde's supersonic wind tunnels. Perhaps the Americans could have put a man in orbit and got to the moon totally on their own without all those German scientists and the V-2.

Do I need to continue?

There's a bit of a difference between duplicating the Mona Lisa or just using the same artistic techniques to paint something different. Did the P-59, P-80 or F-86 look just like the Me-262 or did they just use some of the same methods, etc. as the Germans did?
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bilgerat
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:27 am

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 24):
In that case why does nobody ever say the British copied the B-727 with the Trident?

Because the Trident was developed before the 727.

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
There's a bit of a difference between duplicating the Mona Lisa or just using the same artistic techniques to paint something different.

Once again, I never said the Americans "copied" or "duplicated" anything. I'm saying Powerslide's earlier comment about the Chinese never being able to reach the level of sophistication the Americans are at unless they develop their own technology is quite disingenuos given the historical examples I mentioned.

Why would China reinvent the wheel? Why not use other people's designs as a starting point when they are playing catch up? The US (and everyone else) has done just that when they've been in the same situation in the past - jet engines and high speed flight being two good examples.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:58 am

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 24):
In that case why does nobody ever say the British copied the B-727 with the Trident?

Funny you should mention that, though the Trident was the earlier design.
in the development stage, a Boeing team was invited over view a mock up of the aircraft, with the understanding that the builders of the British tri-jet would get to see Boeing's ideas about a short/medium haul jet.
(At the time Boeing was building the 707 derivative, the 720 for this role but it wasn't ideal).

The Boeing people duly came but the Trident team never got an invite to Boeing.
It probably was naive of them to expect it?

However, they would lose the advantage of being first to market with a tri- jet not because of any Boeing skulduggery, rather they unwisely scaled down the aircraft after BEA, the lead and then main customer, panicked after a dip in traffic over the winter 1959/60 season. Thus making the aircraft less attractive, blunting it's development potential (by using smaller engines) and delaying it's first flight and service entry.
 
bilgerat
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:50 pm

The Trident is a very interesting aircraft, not least because of the conjecture that had DH (amalgamated into HS during the Trident's development) been allowed to build the aeroplane they wanted to, the world would have had the 727 a few years earlier and the potential effect that may have had on British aircraft manufacturing. Similar to how some believe had the BAC 1-11 been developed along the lines BAC wanted to it could have been a real 737 competitor.

What I think most people don't consider is British manufacturing capacity was nowhere near that of the US and even if British aircraft had been ordered in large numbers we probably wouldn't have been able to build them fast enough.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 28):

Funny you should mention that, though the Trident was the earlier design.
in the development stage, a Boeing team was invited over view a mock up of the aircraft, with the understanding that the builders of the British tri-jet would get to see Boeing's ideas about a short/medium haul jet.
(At the time Boeing was building the 707 derivative, the 720 for this role but it wasn't ideal).

The Boeing people duly came but the Trident team never got an invite to Boeing.
It probably was naive of them to expect it?

There was a similar story about the French Caravelle and the DC-9. Originally Douglas engineers went over to France to see the Caravelle to possibly start a licence production of this aircraft in the US, but then they built the very similar DC-9 for their own market.

Jan
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 25):
I hope for the Chinese that they didn't copy the not up to spec aerodynamics (and numerous other problems) of the F35.

If they're going to copy it, they might as well copy its mistakes, too... especially since they may not know what's a mistake and what's not. 
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sovietjet
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:00 pm

GDB - interesting story!

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 27):
Because the Trident was developed before the 727.

Fair enough, my mistake. My argument still stands though except just reverse the types   i.e. nobody says Boeing copied the Trident.

Either way, leaving subjective opinions out of the argument, whatever China is copying or stealing I say good for them. I would hardly believe anyone here never copied homework or tests from the "smart kid" at least once when you were all in school   . China was very far behind and look where they are now. There is also fault in the US and Russia for letting their designs be susceptible to being copied and stolen. If the J-31 really has stuff from the F-22 and F-35 then the J-20 most probably has stuff from the MiG 1.44 concept.
 
cargotanker
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 21):
Which as I explained was quite disingenuous given the US has benefitted hugely from technology gained from other countries.

Or perhaps Frank Whittle travelling to General Electric with several examples of his engine in 1942 didn't kick start American jet engine development. Perhaps the Americans, British and Soviets gained nothing from the research conducted by the Germans in Peenemunde's supersonic wind tunnels. Perhaps the Americans could have put a man in orbit and got to the moon totally on their own without all those German scientists and the V-2.

Do I need to continue?

As I said, it is most disingenuous to criticise the Chinese for using technology gained from other countries when *everyone* - the US included, has always been doing it. Unless of course you want to believe that American aerospace technology got where it is today totally on its own merit and work without any innovation, input or discoveries from elsewhere?

I think there is a tremendous and obvious difference from receiving technology 60+ years ago vs engaging in espionage/theft today. Yes the US gained technology from other nations...in the 1940s! But somewhere around the time the US went to the moon (40+ years ago) it can claim 100% credit for its aerospace accomplishments.

It is not disingenuous to criticize the Chinese for gaining technology TODAY that they obtain through SPYING and using that technology to develop weapons systems hostile to the nation they spied on.

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 5):
This is because the J-31 is a light fighter with a purpose similar to the F-35 but the Chinese engine technology can't produce an engine as powerful as the F-35's. So they put two. The Chinese have been having trouble with engines for a long time.

I think two engines are more suitable, and most modern fighters have two engines. The F-35 has one specifically to accommodate the B model vertical lift requirement.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 13):
Quoting Oroka (Reply 8):
If you remove the requirement for the F-35 to have its engine farther forward than normal to accommodate the lift fan in the F-35B, it would look very much like the J-31. The vert stabs look like the YF-22s.

Disagree. The main issue for the Chinese was a lack of a suitable engine for their fighters (hence the use of Russian engines and a twin-engine design otherwise they would have gone for a powerful single). You want to bury the engines deeper and further back in the fuselage as it will reduce the frontal radar signature. You can better hide the front of the engine as the engine blades are often a major source of radar reflection.

I agree with Oroka, the F-35 engines are further forward to accommodate the lift fan, reducing the stealth of all F-35s and interfering with weapons bay capacities. Why would the Chinese go for a single engine when almost all modern fighters have 2?

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 11):
The J-20 and J-31 may mean there is a competition or evaluation going on....

Two different planes, two different missions and China has enough money to develop both. J-20 is long range strike like a stealthy F-111 or F-15E while the J-31 is a multi role fighter like the F-35.
 
bilgerat
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:30 pm

*Sigh*

So many people can't see past the little flag next to their username....
 
GDB
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:17 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 32):
hina was very far behind and look where they are now. There is also fault in the US and Russia for letting their designs be susceptible to being copied and stolen. If the J-31 really has stuff from the F-22 and F-35 then the J-20 most probably has stuff from the MiG 1.44 concept.

You can copy/steal/reverse engineer all you like, they will get a better aircraft than they might have done otherwise. What they won't get is a properly integrated aircraft/weapon system to match F-22 and (eventually whatever all the sceptics say) the F-35. The development difficulties those two aircraft had/are having, are from an industry way bigger, hugely experienced at cutting edge design and production and have been that way for many decades.

A case in point, after the USSR broke off military/technical cooperation with China at the end of the 1950's, China had to rely on adapting what they had been gifted, along with some spying and subterfuge. But for the next 30 years the results were variations on a theme based around MIG-19 and (where subterfuge came in) , very early MIG-21 versions.

Even with Mao throwing every resource to try and catch up (basically starving the whole country - except himself - in probably the most devastating - and deliberate - famine in history), by his death in 1976 his air force was a huge museum exhibit (those aircraft that at least could actually fly), he had the bomb but still by then no means to deliver it much outside of China's borders, far from having an ocean going navy including 350 nuclear subs, it was still largely an obsolete coastal defence force.

There is just no substitute for a properly advanced industry and research base if you want to keep up with the West.
Now China is way more improved on that since Mao, still theft and subterfuge will only get you so far.

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 29):
What I think most people don't consider is British manufacturing capacity was nowhere near that of the US and even if British aircraft had been ordered in large numbers we probably wouldn't have been able to build them fast enough.

True, A lot of small by US standards, companies, made worse by the legacy of wartime factory dispersal.
Nothing on the scale of Seattle, Wichita , St Louis or Long Beach.
As for their capitalisation, just no comparison.

When the Comet first entered service in 1952, before the metal fatigue accidents happened, when it looked set to conquer the airline world, the head of then influential Sabena Airlines was asked who would dominate the industry a decade hence. Without hesitation he said the US.
He would have made that comparison between size and money between the UK and USA, quite likely too that when he enquired about buying Comets, he was told to join the queue After all DH were still setting up extra lines elsewhere to try and cope with the demand as it was. In Chester, also they planned to in Belfast.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting cargotanker (Reply 33):
I agree with Oroka, the F-35 engines are further forward to accommodate the lift fan, reducing the stealth of all F-35s and interfering with weapons bay capacities. Why would the Chinese go for a single engine when almost all modern fighters have 2?

1. The lift fan is connected to the engine via a driveshaft. How far forward the engine doesn't really matter as much. I will note that the Boeing X-32 had its engine at roughly the same location as the F-35 does.

2. Engine technology. The Chinese are struggling mighty with engine technology. They don't have the engine available to make it a single engine fighter. The best they have access to is the Russian AL-31 and the RD-33 and the various derivatives. You want to go to a single engine if you have the engine to do so. Single engine aircraft are easier to maintain and build, and are cheaper to buy and operate. Witness the sales differences between the F-16 and the F/A-18; the Viper has a massive sales lead over the Hornet with the majority of export customers, when they have a choice between the two and will pick one or the other.
 
bilgerat
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:08 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 36):
Witness the sales differences between the F-16 and the F/A-18; the Viper has a massive sales lead over the Hornet with the majority of export customers, when they have a choice between the two and will pick one or the other.

Don't forget the F/A-18 was optimised for carrier ops and carries around a far amount of dead weight for a land based aircraft.

Hypothetical question:

If Northrop and MDD hadn't had their little spat and Northrop hadn't subsequently thrown in the towel, how well would the Northrop F-18L have done on the export market?
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:35 pm

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 37):
If Northrop and MDD hadn't had their little spat and Northrop hadn't subsequently thrown in the towel, how well would the Northrop F-18L have done on the export market?

Don't know if the F-18L would have done better against the F-16 (and Mirage 2000) in international competitions to pick a new combat aircraft but I think it's fair to say that the only users of the F/A-18 would have been the US Navy and Marines.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:57 pm

I'm not so sure... compared to the F/A-18A the F-18L was considerably lighter, could carry a greater payload, and was 9G capable... all the while retaining the same radar and avionics as the F/A-18A.

Definitely could have been a contender.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:03 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 38):
Don't know if the F-18L would have done better against the F-16 (and Mirage 2000) in international competitions to pick a new combat aircraft but I think it's fair to say that the only users of the F/A-18 would have been the US Navy and Marines.

Don't forget that the basic F-18 design was the LOSER in the lightweight fighter design competition that the F-16 won.
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 40):
Don't forget that the basic F-18 design was the LOSER in the lightweight fighter design competition that the F-16 won.

I thought I read somewhere the F-16 choice was more political, as General Dynamics had a big ol' factory in Texas with nothing to make. The F-111 production was winding down. Northrop eventually got the B-2 contract as a consolation prize.

JM
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 40):
Don't forget that the basic F-18 design was the LOSER in the lightweight fighter design competition that the F-16 won.

Well, the YF-17!
However, I do recall some air arms picked the Hornet in close competitions with the F-16, where the deciding factors were twin engines (Canada and Australia) and having SARH capabilities (with AIM-7 missiles) 'out of the box'. At that time, late 70's/early 80's, that capability was some years away with the F-16.

Whether the latter capability would have been available right away with the F-18L is another matter.
It could have ended up like the F-20. ('If the USAF don't want it, why should we?' 'Other AF's in our region have F-16's, why not us?')
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:33 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 42):
Well, the YF-17!
However, I do recall some air arms picked the Hornet in close competitions with the F-16, where the deciding factors were twin engines (Canada and Australia) and having SARH capabilities (with AIM-7 missiles) 'out of the box'. At that time, late 70's/early 80's, that capability was some years away with the F-16.

I think you'll agree that the F-18 is probably a more capable a/c than it's "ancestor", the YF-17 as well as slightly larger. Today, it might beat the F-16 in that same competition.
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ThePointblank
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 37):
Don't forget the F/A-18 was optimised for carrier ops and carries around a far amount of dead weight for a land based aircraft.

Hypothetical question:

If Northrop and MDD hadn't had their little spat and Northrop hadn't subsequently thrown in the towel, how well would the Northrop F-18L have done on the export market?

What really killed the Northrop F-18L was that it was first pitched to Canada, we were unwilling to bet the house on an aircraft that wasn't built yet. The DND wasn't willing to have a new fighter designed and built just for Canada and there were strong concerns regarding delivery schedules and price. The lack of the Canadian order pretty much sealed the deal for the F-18L.
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:24 am

Why is a thread about the J-20/J-31/F-22/F-35 morphing into discussions on the Fighting Falcon vs the Hornet?
Go back on the right contrails, please.
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 21):
Or perhaps Frank Whittle travelling to General Electric with several examples of his engine in 1942 didn't kick start American jet engine development. Perhaps the Americans, British and Soviets gained nothing from the research conducted by the Germans in Peenemunde's supersonic wind tunnels. Perhaps the Americans could have put a man in orbit and got to the moon totally on their own without all those German scientists and the V-2.

Do I need to continue?

Germaine to this conversation, you may want to mention that the UK contributed Klaus Fuchs to the Manhattan Project, who then contributed high level design info to the USSR, which indeed the USSR used to copy the implosion design.

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 27):
Why would China reinvent the wheel? Why not use other people's designs as a starting point when they are playing catch up? The US (and everyone else) has done just that when they've been in the same situation in the past - jet engines and high speed flight being two good examples.

Well it certainly creates trade tensions, but as we see, the US politicians would rather keep Wal*Mart happy whilst almost every manufacturing job that can move to China has.

Quoting bilgerat (Reply 29):
What I think most people don't consider is British manufacturing capacity was nowhere near that of the US and even if British aircraft had been ordered in large numbers we probably wouldn't have been able to build them fast enough.

It's probably the case now that since so much has been outsourced to China and elsewhere that there are many things that just cannot be manufactured in the West without having to start from scratch in terms of facilities and training, which would make it economically unfeasible.

Quoting cargotanker (Reply 33):
It is not disingenuous to criticize the Chinese for gaining technology TODAY that they obtain through SPYING and using that technology to develop weapons systems hostile to the nation they spied on.

Just finished reading a book about thos MiGs the USAF has been flying around the Nevada desert since the 60s. It was mostly done to figure out how to fight against them, but I'm sure any good things they learned made it into the requirements sheets of the later US fighters.

Quoting GDB (Reply 35):
There is just no substitute for a properly advanced industry and research base if you want to keep up with the West.
Now China is way more improved on that since Mao, still theft and subterfuge will only get you so far.

Right, but it gives you a much better starting point.

Keep in mind technology that can be used for reverse engineering (intentionally or not) has advanced tremendously too.

Also keep in mind that all companies do some degree of intelligence gathering on their competitors which may or may not cross the line morally or legally. I known earlier in my career that my employer would acquire its competitor's products and do a 'teardown' and would learn a lot about manufacturing techniques, cost of manufacture, etc. They'd also learn a lot about what vendors the competitor had in its supply chain, etc. I don't think that what they were doing was illegal, but I do know the info was very tightly held within the company. If they wanted to cross the line, there's no reason why they couldn't just read the software off the chips and reverse engineer it, but I never saw that done in my career, but certain US companies have sued certain Chinese companies for doing exactly that.
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Oroka
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 36):
1. The lift fan is connected to the engine via a driveshaft. How far forward the engine doesn't really matter as much. I will note that the Boeing X-32 had its engine at roughly the same location as the F-35 does.

I will have to do some searching as to where I read it, but the F-35 engine is farther forward to accommodate the F-35B lift fan. Yes, there is a drive shaft, BUT, the engine was moved forward so that shaft was not too long. Between weight and torque, the materials are not there to have a light yet strong enough shaft with a normally farther aft engine.


That said, the F-35 profile is also due to a single large engine rather than 2 smaller ones.
 
rampart
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:36 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 32):

Fair enough, my mistake. My argument still stands though except just reverse the types   i.e. nobody says Boeing copied the Trident.

But some have said that (read previously in the thread, not just us A.net kooks), and Boeing probably did. Early studies of the 727 looked nothing like it ended up looking... after they studied the Trident at Dehavilland's invitation.

-Rampart
 
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RE: Chinese Stealth Copy Of F-22/F-35?

Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:09 pm

Not to get off topic but the J-20 has apparently begun weapons integration testing...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8q24mSjkRmk/UVITTXHryWI/AAAAAAAAUzU/iimpwy8Lh_c/s1600/1364312332_79707.jpg

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/20...-day-j-20-mounting-pair-of-pl.html

Notice how the prototypes have been painted gray instead of black....
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