mig21umd
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Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:36 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xtGrxta6nJU#t=62s

Watching this short clip on You tube, I was surprised to see this very rare image of a Croatian Mig 21 displayed with multiple armaments one of which is of a mysterious air to air missile. The one I am referring to is the one in the middle of the screen. Not the R-60s (left of screen). The R-60 is known to be used by the CroAF but the missile in the centre. I have no idea what it is and also never new about it in CroAF service before.

To me it looks like a Aim-120 Amraam but of course this could not be used on a Mig 21 of that type. So my question to anyone out there who might know, is it a real missile? Is it a fake used for propaganda purposes? Or did Croatia actually purchase the Aim 120 for either an upgraded Mig-21 force or a new aircraft type both of which never came.

I have always been interested to know what weapon systems were used on Croatian Mig 21s during the war mainly because info of this nature is very scares and some inventive systems were used by the air force but seldom written about.
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:33 pm

wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting mig21umd (Thread starter):
I have always been interested to know what weapon systems were used on Croatian Mig 21s during the war mainly because info of this nature is very scares and some inventive systems were used by the air force but seldom written about.

The vast majority of systems used were air-to-ground munitions, all unguided. The MiG-21 fleet was at the time quite small, and considered to be too valuable to risk in air-to-air roles. The rational was that any air combat scenario could result in a loss of the aircraft for what effectively was no gain whatsoever. Even if an enemy aircraft was downed in the process, the CroAF would have lost a powerful - and priceless - ground attack tool, while the YuAF could far more easily compensate for the loss ("there's plenty more where that came from"   ).

EDIT: about the missiles - when the MiG-21 fleet was bolstered after the end of the war, the CroAF had also received an undetermined quantity AA-8s and a few AA-2s. I don't know exactly which version they were though... but common sense would suggest heat seekers.

[Edited 2013-04-09 14:54:41]
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ThePointblank
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:59 pm

Aren't the Croatians using the MiG-21-93 standard, which means that their MiG-21's are cleared for use of the Russian R-77 missile?
 
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 3):
Aren't the Croatians using the MiG-21-93 standard, which means that their MiG-21's are cleared for use of the Russian R-77 missile?

No, all of the jets are stock MiG-21bis models. In the early 2000s, the fleet was upgraded to a local standard known as "bis D" (D for dorađen, or modified), which includes the provision of NATO- and civilian ATC-compatible transponders, civilian GPS and a civilian NAV/COM station with CDI... but little else.

EDIT: typos...

[Edited 2013-04-09 15:28:33]
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:39 am

Quoting oly720man (Reply 1):
The AA-2C R-3R, perhaps

That makes sense. While I searched for a look a like missile on Wikipedia I missed this one. Images and or footage of CroAF Migs with this type of missile system are extremely rare and I had no idea they had any other AA capability at that time other than the R-60. So thanks for this.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 2):
The vast majority of systems used were air-to-ground munitions, all unguided.

Yes, and this is where it gets really interesting for me. I have somewhere an image in a military magazine of a CroAF Mig 21 returning from a Oluja (storm 95) mission armed with a 4 tube unguided rocket pod. This one did not look like the ones used by Yugoslavia / Serbia on the G-4s but was of a more square / rectangle design. This is the only image I have ever seen of this type of weapon system and I always wondered about it. For example, was it an indigenous design and how effective it was. I'm guessing again looking at the video that it would have been used for the larger unguided rockets seen in the video. The ones laid out between the R-60, the (newly discovered   ) AA-2c and the row of bombs.

Looking at more recent images of CroAF Mig-21s displayed with ordinance, it seems that the variety of ordinance has been reduced to half of what was used during and after the war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...yer_detailpage&v=IyyNcSreBvA#t=34s
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:37 am

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 5):
This one did not look like the ones used by Yugoslavia / Serbia on the G-4s but was of a more square / rectangle design.

Very little of the ordnance used by the CroAF during the war had actually come from the stockpiles of the YuAF. During the run-up to the actual fighting, most of the "heavy machinery" had been recalled to Serbia, leaving the nascent Croatian forces woefully under-equipped (indeed, one of the first major ground offensives mounted by the Croatian Army was the so called "Battle of the Barracks", a series of raids on remaining JNA ammunition depots in order to retrieve heavier weapons).

As per available information, the ordnance used by the AF (including that bolted onto Mi-24s) was sourced internationally. However, due to the arms embargo in place then, some of these were bought on various grey/black markets in the lands of the former USSR - so you couldn't really pick and choose, but took whatever you could lay your hands on  . The launcher is probably an earlier Soviet type... and while the CroAF had shown great inventiveness in turning an An-2 into an AWACS and level bomber (and Air Tractors into dive bombers), it's unlikely that they were indigenous. Bolting a bomb onto an aircraft that maxes out at 150 knots is not nearly as difficult as designing a launcher for a supersonic fighter  .

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 5):
I'm guessing again looking at the video that it would have been used for the larger unguided rockets seen in the video

The big grey ones? Those are S-24s I believe, which are carried individually, i.e. not in pods.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 5):
The ones laid out between the R-60, the (newly discovered ) AA-2c and the row of bombs.

There's no AA-2 in that video. Only the AA-8. Here's a clearer photo I took a year earlier.

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Ryan h
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:30 am

The missile that has the launch rail attached is the R-3R Atoll with radar guidance.
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mig21umd
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:19 pm

Quoting ryan h (Reply 7):
R-3R Atoll with radar guidance

Interesting how it is with radar guidance. Is this a standard capability for the Mig-21 bis? I always assumed the the Mig-21 only had IR capability. (the Bis model anyway)

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 6):
The big grey ones? Those are S-24s I believe, which are carried individually, i.e. not in pods.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 5):
The ones laid out between the R-60, the (newly discovered ) AA-2c and the row of bombs.

There's no AA-2 in that video. Only the AA-8. Here's a clearer photo I took a year earlier.

Thanks for that picture!

I was actually referring to the row of rockets from the first video. Laid out just in front of the row of bombs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xtGrxta6nJU#t=62s

Row of eight munitions. 4 seem to be 9K114 Shturm, as used on the M-24 Hind, and again, if these were used on the Migs...., interesting. But the other look like a larger size unguided rocket. Maybe the S-13. I'm sure this type needed launchers.
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RE: Mysterious AAM Used By The Croatian AF

Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 8):
I always assumed the the Mig-21 only had IR capability.

No, all single-seaters apart from the original F-13 have had radar capability... just . The dish itself is housed in the nose cone - hence the reason why single seaters have a larger cone than the radar-less F-13 and UB/UMs. It's not a powerful radar, but enough to serve shorter-range radar-guided missiles.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 8):
(the Bis model anyway)

The bis is actually the ultimate and most capable "OEM" version of the -21. The only models that can outperform it are the "aftermarket" Lancers, Bisons and various Israeli modernizations, plus the stillborn MiG-21-93.

Quoting mig21umd (Reply 8):
Row of eight munitions. 4 seem to be 9K114 Shturm, as used on the M-24 Hind, and again, if these were used on the Migs...., interesting. But the other look like a larger size unguided rocket. Maybe the S-13. I'm sure this type needed launchers.

Could be... at the time you took what you could lay your hands on  .
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