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bikerthai
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:02 am

Boeing would have problem rebuilding the KC-767J for several reasons.

I am not sure if they still have any of the tooling left.
I am not sure if they have any digital data to build the frames. Most of the original KC-767J data may be in mylar form even if they were created by a CAD system. Converting that data to NC machinable datasets would be costly for Boeing or the subcontractors.
Much of the original electronics are no longer built, so you will need to certify new ones.

The only way I can see more KC-767J being built would be the Japanese get permission from Boeing to do it themselves and do it through sheer willpower.

Reselling the KC-767J may not be as bad as you think as the JDF are renowned for keeping their planes in pristine condition.

bt
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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:12 am

The RFP is for three frames, of which the first has recently been approved. The four KC-767Js are stationed at Komaki Base in Nagoya so depending on where the JASDF wish to station them, you could conceivably have the 404th at NKM with the KC-767J and then a separate KC-46A squadron based somewhere else. Two separate squadrons in two separate locations would mean the lack of commonality between the frames would be less of an issue since they would have separate crew and spares pools supporting them anyway due to the distance even if they were all the same model.
 
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747classic
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:57 am

My point is : For the JASDF adding KC-46 tankers into a present KC-767J and E-767 fleet is a relative expensive deal because this means adding another sub type, with large operational differences, increasing the operating costs.

If Boeing is unwilling to trade in KC-767J's or is unable to produce new KC-767J's, both for a reasonable price , I would have gone for a far more economical and more logical alternative :

Ordering a few additional converted 767-200ER* tankers, powered by CF6-80C2B4F or -B6F engines from IAI. The STC for a 767-200MMTT is already certified for the Colombia Air Force and can be adapted for a KC-767J look alike, even refuelling pods are possible..
Conversion costs at IAI are a fraction of Boeing conversions, also the flexibility to solve unforseen issues is exceptional at IAI.(smaller company with short internal communication lines).
*= late model 767-200ER aircraft.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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AviationAddict
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:01 pm

747classic wrote:
My point is : For the JASDF adding KC-46 tankers into a present KC-767J and E-767 fleet is a relative expensive deal because this means adding another sub type, with large operational differences, increasing the operating costs.

If Boeing is unwilling to trade in KC-767J's or is unable to produce new KC-767J's, both for a reasonable price , I would have gone for a far more economical and more logical alternative :

Ordering a few additional converted 767-200ER* tankers, powered by CF6-80C2B4F or -B6F engines from IAI. The STC for a 767-200MMTT is already certified for the Colombia Air Force and can be adapted for a KC-767J look alike, even refuelling pods are possible..
Conversion costs at IAI are a fraction of Boeing conversions, also the flexibility to solve unforseen issues is exceptional at IAI.(smaller company with short internal communication lines).
*= late model 767-200ER aircraft.


When dealing with the military cost isn't always the most important factor. The JASDF might feel the KC-46 offers strategic advantages the KC-767 can not.
 
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Revelation
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:32 pm

AviationAddict wrote:
747classic wrote:
My point is : For the JASDF adding KC-46 tankers into a present KC-767J and E-767 fleet is a relative expensive deal because this means adding another sub type, with large operational differences, increasing the operating costs.

If Boeing is unwilling to trade in KC-767J's or is unable to produce new KC-767J's, both for a reasonable price , I would have gone for a far more economical and more logical alternative :

Ordering a few additional converted 767-200ER* tankers, powered by CF6-80C2B4F or -B6F engines from IAI. The STC for a 767-200MMTT is already certified for the Colombia Air Force and can be adapted for a KC-767J look alike, even refuelling pods are possible..
Conversion costs at IAI are a fraction of Boeing conversions, also the flexibility to solve unforseen issues is exceptional at IAI.(smaller company with short internal communication lines).
*= late model 767-200ER aircraft.


When dealing with the military cost isn't always the most important factor. The JASDF might feel the KC-46 offers strategic advantages the KC-767 can not.

Absolutely true, but 747classic's proposal makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Japan considered going that path, or went straight for the "strategic advantages" approach.
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bikerthai
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:01 am

If logic is supreme, then the JDF would drop their P-1 and buy the p-8A instead. As for economics, Some times the Japanese have their own calculations, different from us. And it seems to work for them.

With pride involve, and their meticulous attention to details, I would believe modification of a used 767 was never on the table. Didn't Korea buy the A330 tanker? Getting a smaller plane is bad enough, but a used one? It would never do :shakehead:
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Stitch
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:18 am

The Foreign Military Sales contract signed last week for the first JASDF KC-46A includes both the frame and support for said frame.

Also, one of the stated goals was interoperability with the KC-46A fleet on joint missions between the USAF and JASDF so that was another factor that favored them ordering the KC-46A.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:18 pm

Revelation wrote:
Some good news: it has got one of the two required FAA certifications: http://ksn.com/2017/12/21/boeing-kc-46- ... -aircraft/ says:


Yet we learned a few weeks ago ( https://www.upi.com/Boeing-will-miss-it ... 512409722/ ) that the program would be missing its goal of delivering by the end of the year and ( http://aviationweek.com/aviation-week-s ... rocky-year ) that it will be taking yet another write down ( $329 million ).


Achieving the second FAA airworthiness certificate takes some time, hence there will be no deliveries in 2017.

We also don't know if current FAA certification will satisfy the USAF. AFAIK Boeiing is still working on the boom scraping issue, thus more work is need, even after obtaining type certification.

par13del wrote:
A large number of frames, the silver lining if they execute properly after certification is that the Air Force will get a number of frames quickly to speed integration into the fleet, from pilot training to facility management.


While lots of aircraft have been assembled already, most still need to be converted into tanker configuration while other aircraft may still need some rework.

Bottom line, still a lot of work needs to be done before the flood gates can be opened.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
WIederling
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:19 pm

Revelation wrote:
Absolutely true, but 747classic's proposal makes a lot of sense. I wonder if Japan considered going that path, or went straight for the "strategic advantages" approach.


Those J frames were essentially band aided to contract conformance.

My guess would be that Japan would like someone else (here US Air Force )
to babysit the new frames into conformance. That must be worth some money?
Murphy is an optimist
 
strfyr51
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:02 am

the Japanese gave away or revealed technical secrets about previous US designed weapon systems because they thought they owned the technical aspects of what they bought. The US didn't see it that way so now they're not getting in the programs anymore to their satisfaction. That's why the P1 and not the P8A
 
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bikerthai
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:38 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
the Japanese gave away or revealed technical secrets about previous US designed weapon systems because they thought they owned the technical aspects of what they bought. The US didn't see it that way so now they're not getting in the programs anymore to their satisfaction. That's why the P1 and not the P8A

Boeing is pitching the P-8 to Japan. The would not do so if they did not get permission from the US government. Now, whether they are pitching the I or A version, I do not know. My sense is that either version would be better than than the P-1. But Japan has invest so much in the P-1 and C-2 that it would be difficult to give those up now.

bt
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angad84
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 pm

bikerthai wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
the Japanese gave away or revealed technical secrets about previous US designed weapon systems because they thought they owned the technical aspects of what they bought. The US didn't see it that way so now they're not getting in the programs anymore to their satisfaction. That's why the P1 and not the P8A

Boeing is pitching the P-8 to Japan. The would not do so if they did not get permission from the US government. Now, whether they are pitching the I or A version, I do not know. My sense is that either version would be better than than the P-1. But Japan has invest so much in the P-1 and C-2 that it would be difficult to give those up now.

bt

I have to disagree. I've spoken with Japanese P-1 crews on two occasions, and they were very pleased with the P-1, specifically with how it compared to the P-8A (they weren't familiar with the P-8I, and some were even surprised that the IN has P-8s when I showed them photos from my trips down to ARK). Given that they held up their radar as a clear advantage over the P-8A, I would imagine they would prefer the 360-degree radar coverage of the P-8I if they were forced to buy P-8s of any variant.

But yeah, they've definitely got too many eggs in the domestic basket for P-8s to be realistic for the JMSDF anyway.
 
WIederling
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:19 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
the Japanese gave away or revealed technical secrets about previous US designed weapon systems because they thought they owned the technical aspects of what they bought. The US didn't see it that way so now they're not getting in the programs anymore to their satisfaction. That's why the P1 and not the P8A


anythings specific you could bring up on this?
Murphy is an optimist
 
LMP737
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:10 pm

747classic wrote:

If Boeing is unwilling to trade in KC-767J's or is unable to produce new KC-767J's, both for a reasonable price , I would have gone for a far more economical and more logical alternative :


The facillity that converted the original KC-767 for the JSDF is no longer around. All that experience and talent has been spread to the for winds. along with any associated tooling. Could Boeing do it, of course they could. I would imagine the costs though would be higher than just ordering up some KC-46.
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KarelXWB
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:44 pm

Boeing is still working on three issues:

Boeing is still working to fix three deficiencies related to the refueling process of the KC-46 Pegasus that must be resolved before the troubled tanker can enter service.


http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/boe ... 46-defects

As I wrote upthread, just getting FAA certification won't be enough for the USAF to accept any aircraft.
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strfyr51
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:19 am

WIederling wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
the Japanese gave away or revealed technical secrets about previous US designed weapon systems because they thought they owned the technical aspects of what they bought. The US didn't see it that way so now they're not getting in the programs anymore to their satisfaction. That's why the P1 and not the P8A


anythings specific you could bring up on this?


I read it in Aviation Week.. Quite a while ago a Japanese officer (I Think an Admiral made the comment) If they bought the program?
Then they felt like they "owned" the related Data and they could do with it as they pleased.
I didn't agree with that, and evidently neither did Boeing or Lockheed. thus their C1 and P1 were built out of necessity because they were Not going to get the tech data to do with as they pleased.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:49 am

strfyr51 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
the Japanese gave away or revealed technical secrets about previous US designed weapon systems because they thought they owned the technical aspects of what they bought. The US didn't see it that way so now they're not getting in the programs anymore to their satisfaction. That's why the P1 and not the P8A


anythings specific you could bring up on this?


I read it in Aviation Week.. Quite a while ago a Japanese officer (I Think an Admiral made the comment) If they bought the program?
Then they felt like they "owned" the related Data and they could do with it as they pleased.
I didn't agree with that, and evidently neither did Boeing or Lockheed. thus their C1 and P1 were built out of necessity because they were Not going to get the tech data to do with as they pleased.


I assume the necessity for the C1 and P1 was owning the data. Perhaps next time they will get the data so they will buy from the US again. There are during the time quite a few sales lost by USA firms not supplying necessary data, for example the Eurohawk debacle.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:50 am

The P-1 project started some times before the P-8A. By the time Boeing began building the P-8. Japan was already committed.

In some aspect the P-1 is probably a better aircraft as it was built from the ground up. But from a cost (purchase and maintenance), technology, and upgradability of the systems, the P-8 should have the advantage.

bt
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bikerthai
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Re: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:57 am

As for technology, Japan is getting the F-35. So they must have worked something out.

bt
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