Geezer
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U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Sun May 26, 2013 7:00 pm

I just noticed this while scanning the news today; It sounds bad, but it also begs some questions; What foreign company is Mr. Buffenbarger referring to ? What U.S. built A/C is he referring to ? And who IS Mr. Buffenbarger ?

http://www.rollcall.com/news/buffenb...lar_mistake-224008-1.html?src=otbp
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
ThePointblank
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Sun May 26, 2013 7:10 pm

He's referring to Embraer, which won the Light Air Support competition, which was supposed to deliver 20 aircraft to the Afghan Air Force.

I would be careful about what Mr. Buffenbarger says; he has a vested interest in Beechcraft winning the contract as head of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.
 
mffoda
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Sun May 26, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
What foreign company is Mr. Buffenbarger referring to ? What U.S. built A/C is he referring to ?

Embraer A-29 Super Tucanos and the US Beechcraft offering...
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Sun May 26, 2013 7:24 pm

The Beechcraft offering was the AT-6B, an attack version of the T-6A trainer.
 
Geezer
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Sun May 26, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):
I would be careful about what Mr. Buffenbarger says; he has a vested interest in Beechcraft winning the contract as head of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.

In the comment forum after the story, someone noted that Mr. Buffenbarger was a "Union Boss".........I have rather mixed feeling about "Union Bosses"; on the one hand, I'm very well aware of all of the hanky-panky perpetrated by certain unions over the years, but on the other hand, as a dues-paying member of the Teamsters Union for 41 years, (and as a Teamster retiree and drawing a Teamsters pension ), I'm also well aware of all the many benefits of belonging to a union.

I only take issue with unions for two things; first, when the union leaders are crooks and steal millions of dollars from the members, ( like the Teamsters did when it financed the building of Las Vegas ), and two..........when they get into politics and support hack politicians for high public office, expecting "hand outs" from said political hacks when they are elected, to the complete detriment of the whole country, ( which, IMO, is precisely what's happening at the present time. )

Quoting mffoda (Reply 2):
Embraer A-29 Super Tucanos and the US Beechcraft offering...

I'm wondering........exactly what is Beechcraft offering ? Is the Beech "offering" in any way related to the venerable King Air ?
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
petertenthije
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Sun May 26, 2013 9:39 pm

Beechcraft is offering the AT-6B. The design is based on the Swiss designed Pilatus PC-9. The trainer version T-6A is used by both the USAF and USN as a replacement for the T-37B and T-34C respectively. It´s also in use by the air forces of Canada, Germany, Greece, Israel and Iraq. The original PC-9 is used by another dozen or so air forces.
Attamottamotta!
 
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ptrjong
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Sun May 26, 2013 11:06 pm

For completeness, the Tucano is used by a dozen other air forces including those of Britain and France.

By not naming the companies he's referring to this man makes himself utterly incredibe I think.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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Moose135
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Tue May 28, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 4):
...when they get into politics and support hack politicians for high public office, expecting "hand outs" from said political hacks when they are elected, to the complete detriment of the whole country, ( which, IMO, is precisely what's happening at the present time. )

As opposed to big corporations and wealthy individuals doing the same things, which is precisely what's happening at the present time...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
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GCT64
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Tue May 28, 2013 8:55 pm

It doesn't help any rationale discussion on the topic when Beechcraft themselves say: "The AT-6 is designed and manufactured in the U.S."

The truth is that both the Tucano and PC-9 were designed outside the USA, and both the A-29 and AT-6B will be built inside the USA. So that is not a good parameter for any argument about which is best.
Flown in: A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,B190,(..54 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
GDB
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Thu May 30, 2013 6:46 pm

Not a rialble source, there are plenty, many linked on threads about this subject here, that report it from a perspective of knowlwdge of the aerospace industry, Washington, the armed forces, rather than say partisan, paranoid, rather xenophobic

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 8):
The truth is that both the Tucano and PC-9 were designed outside the USA, and both the A-29 and AT-6B will be built inside the USA. So that is not a good parameter for any argument about which is best

Just another cack handed attempt of a hatchet job, you cannot expect even basic research there.
 
mham001
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Thu May 30, 2013 8:37 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 8):

It doesn't help any rationale discussion on the topic when Beechcraft themselves say: "The AT-6 is designed and manufactured in the U.S."

Are you saying the AT-6B has not been significantly modified from the original design?
 
ThePointblank
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RE: U.S. Air Force's Billion Dollar Mistake

Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:32 am

The GAO has released it's decision in full:
http://www.gao.gov/products/D05003#mt=e-report
The short summary is that to meet its proposed offer targets, the AT-6C would experience a 40-50% rise in MTOW, and experience shows that anything over 20% is a serious risk for problems and certification delays, as well as service life issues. There were other issues as well, and the bottom line is that the AT-6C got an Exception aircraft evaluation + High risk, while the Super Tucano was rated as Exceptional + Low Risk. Per the GAO, there was ample reason to award the contract to Sierra Nevada & Embraer and their Super Tucano proposal.

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