dtw9
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B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:08 pm

Wow, talk about having a few gauges to keep track of.

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/media/062/B-36J%20Engineer.html
 
sphealey
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:17 pm

Yowza! Are there one or two flight engineer stations?

sPH
 
David L
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:20 pm

The number of gauges and the view are both pretty impressive although, strictly speaking, that's a 4π steradian panorama.
  
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting sphealey (Reply 1):
Yowza! Are there one or two flight engineer stations?

Yes, all B-36 had two FEs. The B-36J, like this one carried a crew of 13, all earlier B-36s had a crew of 15.
 
wingman
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:43 am

That's a great picture. Can you imagine an Airbus pilot stepping into that thing? The guy would shit himself silly. A Boeing guy would at least recognize the yokes, but I doubt either would be able to get the thing off the ground.

Ahhh, when pilots were real men..
 
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Francoflier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 4):
Can you imagine an Airbus pilot stepping into that thing? The guy would shit himself silly. A Boeing guy would at least recognize the yokes, but I doubt either would be able to get the thing off the ground.

Ahhh, when pilots were real men..

I can't even count the number of idiotic statements in your post...

Honestly?  
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
wingman
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:56 pm

It's called humor my friend. You know, the number of dials and almost complete lack of automation might present real problems to pilots that have very little actual flying to do, calculations to make etc in modern aircraft.

When you have to explain the joke it does lose something. Let's put it down to a difference in comical taste shall we?
 
rfields5421
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 6):
the number of dials and almost complete lack of automation might present real problems to pilots that have very little actual flying to do

Pilots won't have a problem with the basic six pack of instruments. Even today's MFDs still emulate the basic sixpack and experienced pilots can easily find their way. They would also not have much trouble figuring out how to operate the autopilot.

I have flown a lot of Lockheed Super Connie's.

Back then pilots didn't know or fully understand the FE panel. Multiple recip engines required detailed full-time monitoring of the engines. Pilots didn't do that job.

The biggest issue for modern pilots would be navigation in my opinion.

Those old recips were not setup for the pilots to navigate, and usually not for the pilots to work the radios.

Pilots FLEW - and all those other tasks, engine monitoring, navigation, radios - were someone else's job.
 
wingman
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:30 pm

It's tough being a joker. I know from the number of times my wife hasn't laughed at one of my bits. A.net can be the same as marriage I suppose.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:26 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 6):
Let's put it down to a difference in comical taste shall we?

Yes, I guess. Though I think it was pretty inflammatory on modern day pilots.

First of all, most Airbus and Boeing pilots these days have indeed flown things a lot more basic and mechanical than their current ride earlier in their career.

And since we're on the point, I wonder whose job I'd rather be doing. It's like apple to oranges, I know, but flying nowadays is more about managing an ever increasing series of threats to the safety of the flight than manhandling a heavy piece of metal in a mostly empty sky. There is more automation now, for sure, but also a lot less people in the cockpit and a great deal more things to deal with.

But yes, I'd rather be flying a B-36 than a 747. Except maybe for the 40 hours long missions...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
wingman
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:55 pm

I base the comments also in part on a friend who recently transitioned from MD11s. He still says he "misses the challenge of piloting".

But this is well off topic. Incredible picture by the way, and love that 360. I've been sharing it around and sometimes get more fascinated by the actual construction. Just metal and rivets, nary a piece of insulation to be found. Crazy what those guys went through just flying, forget about flak bursting all around you on really bad days.
 
dtw9
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:35 pm

I have one question, where is the landing gear handle. I see the circuit breakers and the landing gear indicator lights but can't seem to find the handle
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 11):
I have one question, where is the landing gear handle. I see the circuit breakers and the landing gear indicator lights but can't seem to find the handle


The B-36 didn't have a handle or lever. It had a switch. You can find where the switch is located here:

http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/b-36/images/b-36_pit02.jpg

It's located below the the co-pilot's altimeter on the pilot's pedestal and directly below the landing gear light extend and retract switches. It looks like it has a black cover over it that opens to expose the switch.

[Edited 2013-06-11 11:48:12]
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
ulfinator
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:49 pm

Did this B-36 not have the additional four podded jet engines? I only ask because I didn't see any instruments or throttles, at least that were obvious, for those.
 
yeelep
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:11 pm

I think it does. Look at the overhead above the captains position.
 
rfields5421
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting ulfinator (Reply 13):
I only ask because I didn't see any instruments or throttles, at least that were obvious, for those.

The throttles are overhead and the bank of four sets of four instruments centered between the pilots show for four engines if you zoom in. Likely the jet engine instruments.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:28 pm

Quoting yeelep (Reply 14):
I think it does. Look at the overhead above the captains position.

I didn't see any gauges for the jet engines in the FE stations. Kind of interesting the jet oil and fuel pressure, tach and pipe pressure gauges are all located above the pilot's pedestal up front. So, yes you are correct it does have them.
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rfields5421
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:57 pm

The jets don't require as much monitoring or multiple extra gauges as the recips.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
The jets don't require as much monitoring or multiple extra gauges as the recips.


Were they just used for take off or did they use them in cruise as well?
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rwessel
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:00 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 18):
Were they just used for take off or did they use them in cruise as well?

Not in normal cruise (the jets would have been far too inefficient), but they did during high speed dashes, or in any other situation that required extra power.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 18):
Were they just used for take off or did they use them in cruise as well?

About half of the B-36s were either built as - or converted to - RB-36 reconnaissance birds. In the early fifties they performed missions over the USSR at 50,000+ feet altitude - well above any Soviet defence capability at that time. Cruising at such altitude was only possible with all ten engines running.

But as rwessel corectly states, it greatly reduced range.

Some special lightweight variants, with most gun turrets and other non-essential stuff removed - was said to have reached 58,000 feet. It was the forerunner of the Lockheed U-2.

The flight engineer would report to the captain: "Six turning and four burning".

Reliability was was nothing to write home about, so over a beer in the bar the crews would sometimes be joking: "'two turning, two burning, two joking, two smoking, and two engines not accounted for".
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 20):
Reliability was was nothing to write home about, so over a beer in the bar the crews would sometimes be joking: "'two turning, two burning, two joking, two smoking, and two engines not accounted for".

Interesting airplane. Not long ago I watched the movie "Strategic Air Command" with Jimmy Stewart. So I started doing some research into the airplane. Lots of good video of this plane flying around and some interior shots of the cabin. Too bad not many survive.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
rwy04lga
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 20):
But as rwessel corectly states, it greatly reduced range.

Wouldn't they have had separate fuel tanks? Some for the jets (JP4?) and some for the recips (avgas)? How would using the jets reduce range?
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ssteve
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:07 am

In response to the question about the 2 FE positions in the cockpit, I poked around the web, and the original crew complement was 15, increased to 22 for the RB-36 (complete with darkroom).

What, exactly, did all 15 do? Were some reserve pilots and FEs?
 
rfields5421
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:35 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 23):
What, exactly, did all 15 do? Were some reserve pilots and FEs?

Here is an interesting article - http://www.zianet.com/tmorris/b36.html

But to summarize some key points.

A crew would fly four or five missions a month - 70 flight hours - so missions were 14:55 hours for a minimum and 20:05 hour for a long mission - which resulted in the 35 flight hours for a necessary maintenance check. Crews did two of thse cycles a month in 'their' aircraft.

The crew would include an aircraft commander, a pilot, a third pilot, two performance engineers (FE), a bombardier, a navigator, a co-observer, two radio operators - that's 10 people. The aircraft had 16 defensive guns in eight turrets. Five crewmen were dedicated gunners and the third pilot, co-observer and second radio operator manned turrets on the forward part of the aircraft.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 22):
Wouldn't they have had separate fuel tanks? Some for the jets (JP4?) and some for the recips (avgas)? How would using the jets reduce range?

From the linked article above:

The jets used standard 115/145 AVGAS, the same as the recips.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 22):
Wouldn't they have had separate fuel tanks? Some for the jets (JP4?) and some for the recips (avgas)?

I don't know. And since the last B-36 was retired in 1956, then there aren't many crew members left to tell about it.

Those J47 engines would very likely have no problem burning avgas instead of JP4. On the other hand, those R-4360 engines burned high octane and heavily leaded avgas, and maybe the J47 turbine blades were not so happy with the lead?

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 22):
How would using the jets reduce range?

Those old jet engines had a terrible fuel efficiency compared to the recip engines.

The jets has two advantages:
1. They added a considerable take-off and climb power increase for a modest increase in empty weight.
2. They kept the power better in the thin air at altitude, and added additional power, making very high altitude flight possible.

From day one until its last day survivability of the B-36 was a very controversial question. In the era of MiG-15 fighters firing unguided rockets it sure had only one defence to rely on: Altitude. (And possibly because of its immensely large wing being able to maneuver a little out of the way, while a MiG might do nothing better than a zoom climb in direction of the B-36 and hope for the best).

If nothing else, then at least high altitude SAMs made the B-36 totally obsolete.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Flighty
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:59 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 21):
Not long ago I watched the movie "Strategic Air Command" with Jimmy Stewart

Yes, saw that! Flipping channels and "ooohhhhh.. B-47 footage.... hmmmmyeeees"

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 25):
maybe the J47 turbine blades were not so happy with the lead?

Correct, that was an issue for Chrysler turbine cars. Lead would collect on them.
 
rfields5421
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:33 am

The Navy's P-2V also used just one fuel system - 115/Avgas - for both the piston engines and the J-34 jet engines.

Also doubt the 81 KC-97L aircraft added jet fuel systems - rather running their J47-GE-23 engines on Avgas.

There were 182 converted C-123Bs with two J85 booster engines added. Those likely had two fuel systems.
 
planesofthepast
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:06 am

I've had the privilege of seeing first-hand three of the last four surviving B-36 aircraft over the last couple of years. The size is just staggering! Too bad one wasn't kept in air worthy condition ... But I understood that the Air Force was against such a project. Plus, the economics of the restoration were difficult to overcome.

Here are some facts on the plane, and a few photos of the survivors.

http://www.planesofthepast.com/about-the-b36-peacemaker.htm
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 26):
Yes, saw that! Flipping channels and "ooohhhhh.. B-47 footage.... hmmmmyeeees"

I felt the same way. There's a B-47 at the Museum of Flight here in Seattle I walk by all the time and never knew someone sat in the nose until I watched that movie. Great movie if you're an aircraft enthusiast. Plus it's got Harry Morgan.

Quoting planesofthepast (Reply 28):
I've had the privilege of seeing first-hand three of the last four surviving B-36 aircraft over the last couple of years.

Well, if you get the chance to do it again. Please see if that black panel on the pilot pedestal opens up and reveals a landing gear switch. Or, if anyone you know there would be willing to let us know that's where it is.

I like and would like to support any air museum that's big enough to keep a B-36 under it's roof. I'll make a point to visit next time I'm in the area. The MoF here can't find room for it's B-17 or B-29 under the museum roof.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
aklrno
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:11 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
I like and would like to support any air museum that's big enough to keep a B-36 under it's roof. I'll make a point to visit next time I'm in the area. The MoF here can't find room for it's B-17 or B-29 under the museum roof.

The SAC museum outside Omaha has a B-47, B-52, B-29, and B-36 under a roof (I think they are all in the same room, but I don't remember for sure. A bunch of other stuff as well. Almost worth going to Omaha just to see it.

When I was there I kept looking around outside to find the runway where they landed, but all I saw was rolling cornfields. Turns out they were all disassembled, trucked in, and reassembled in the room.

Take a look at this list: http://www.sasmuseum.com/exhibits/aircraft/
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:22 am

"The SAC museum outside Omaha has a B-47, B-52, B-29, and B-36 under a roof (I think they are all in the same room, but I don't remember for sure. A bunch of other stuff as well. Almost worth going to Omaha just to see it."

Its been a long time since I've been to Omaha. But, I'll make a point of going there. It takes a lot of money to put planes that size under a roof, so I shouldn't be so hard on my hometown air museum. They do have a lot of planes that need a roof though (B52, B29, the 1st 747, etc.).

That said, its great these planes are aound still and with as few B36 examples existing I'll throw my $'s their way when I can.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
yeelep
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:23 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Well, if you get the chance to do it again. Please see if that black panel on the pilot pedestal opens up and reveals a landing gear switch. Or, if anyone you know there would be willing to let us know that's where it is.

Here it is:
http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/med...a/062/B-36J%20Pilot%20Station.html

Other views:
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=360
 
EMBQA
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:49 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 21):
Not long ago I watched the movie "Strategic Air Command" with Jimmy Stewart

Sad it's not on DVD... at least I've never found it. Great air to air shots.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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ssteve
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 33):

Sad it's not on DVD... at least I've never found it. Great air to air shots.

Someone in the UK is selling it on eBay.
 
rc135x
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Quoting aklrno (Reply 30):
The SAC museum outside Omaha has a B-47, B-52, B-29, and B-36 under a roof (I think they are all in the same room, but I don't remember for sure. A bunch of other stuff as well. Almost worth going to Omaha just to see it.

The Museum is about 30-45 minutes away from the airport (KOMA) via Interstate 80. Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo is world class (no, I don't work for the Omaha Chamber of Commerce   )

Quoting planesofthepast (Reply 28):
I've had the privilege of seeing first-hand three of the last four surviving B-36 aircraft over the last couple of years. The size is just staggering! Too bad one wasn't kept in air worthy condition

During the mid 1970s I was a volunteer at the original SAC Museum when it was located on the closed Offutt AFB (KOFF) runway in Bellevue. I worked on airplane restorations, displays, built models, and gave tours. Once a week after closing I was allowed to choose an airplane, unlock it, and go inside. The B-36 was always a favorite. The trolley between the front and the back was in great shape, and I could always imagine suffering through a 40-hour flight.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Great movie if you're an aircraft enthusiast. Plus it's got Harry Morgan.

He was "Sergeant Bible!" Long before TOP GUN "Strategic Air Command" was the defining recruiting film. LeMay (General Hawkes) used the film to recruit Reservists back into SAC and to generate public support for SAC's mission (and budget). Jimmy Stewart ("Dutch" Holland) was a real-life bomber pilot.

The movie won an award for outstanding aerial photography. It was nominated for an Oscar for writing by Beirne Lay. In the movie when Morgan is introducing Stewart to the crew in the back of the airplane one of them is "Airman Lay." He also wrote the great film "12 O'Clock High" and other aviation-related movies.
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:43 pm

I can't seem to get that link to work.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 33):
Sad it's not on DVD... at least I've never found it. Great air to air shots.

It's on Netflix. You could get a trial at a discount and cancel if you really want to watch it again.

Quoting yeelep (Reply 32):
Here it is:
http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/med....html

Couldn't get the link to work. So, no photos of the cockpit with that switch open.

Quoting rc135x (Reply 35):
The movie won an award for outstanding aerial photography.

Yep, some great aerial shots. I liked near the beginning where Stewart leaves not knowing how long he'll be up and they take him on one of those 12+ hour flights with lots of air to air footage of the B-36.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
rc135x
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:32 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 36):
It's on Netflix. You could get a trial at a discount and cancel if you really want to watch it again.

Just checked and it is no longer listed on Netflix. It had been on instant download only.
KC-135A, A(RT), D, E, E(RT), Q, R, EC-135A, C, G, L, RC-135S, U, V, W, X, TC-135S, W
 
canoecarrier
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:29 am

Quoting rc135x (Reply 37):

You can rent it for 2.99 in HD on Amazon Instant Video. Its there now. Netflix must have just pulled it because I had it on a watchlist and saw it there less than a month ago.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
GRIVely
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:32 pm

In 1955 my father was in the Air Force and stationed at Sandia Labs. Our family lived on Kirtland AFB and the B-36s frequently took off right over our houses. You didn't confuse the noise of a B-36 overhead at 500 feet for any other airplane. That's for sure.

As an Air Force brat I was always a plane fanatic and was fortunate to have lived through the 50's and into the 60's on a variety of airbases and got to see all the aircraft from SA, TAC, and ADC. One of my father's friends was a Peacemaker crew dog and he took me down to the aerodrome several times to go through his aircraft. I know aerodrome sounds too British but in those days many of the old heavy bomber crews had been in the 8th AF during the war and that was the term they used. I know the officers that were Officers of the Day in the Army were called ADO's in SAC. That stood for Aerodrome Duty Officer and they when they were on duty they wore an ADO brassard.

People don't believe me when I tell them that many times my friends whose father were fighter pilots could tell the sound of their own father's plane from the other F-86s or F-100s. Of course the AF was much different in those days. Fighter pilots pretty much were always assigned the same aircraft. Engines were so unreliable that hardly a month went by without at least one serious aircraft incident. Many, many of our family friends were killed in flying accidents.

On the bright side you could usually check out a T-33 and go on a weekend cross country with your golf clubs in the back seat.

And while B-36s taking off made the ground shake and the pictures on the wall rattle a B-47 doing a SAC alert JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off) wad pretty darn impressive itself.

Ah the old days. Not all were good but they were interesting.
 
Flighty
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RE: B-36 360 Degree Panarama Cockpit Veiw

Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 39):
You didn't confuse the noise of a B-36 overhead at 500 feet for any other airplane. That's for sure.

Those planes must have sounded like doom itself.

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