tommytoyz
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Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:36 am

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2013/.../video-rafale-dogfighting-f22.html

By Rafale with canon. Needed to pull 9 Gs twice to do it, but it is on par with the F-22 within visual range maneuverability. F-22 can't shake it. Where the F-22 has thrust vectoring, Rafale has canards. Rare to see such footage. Enjoy!

Within the blog news on Rafale is also a new A2A decoy.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2013/...developement-tragedac-and-lea.html

High sustained Gs are also good for defeating inbound missiles, the more the better.
 
jupiter2
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:03 am

Looked absolutely exhausting but a lot of fun too !!
Of course if your life depended on it, it would lose a bit of the fun factor.
 
Ozair
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:05 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Thread starter):
By Rafale with canon. Needed to pull 9 Gs twice to do it, but it is on par with the F-22 within visual range maneuverability.

No surprise as the F-22 isn't a wonder machine. It is optimized for supersonic flight and maneuver and therefore when it comes WVR of the eurocanards, who are designed for sub-sonic maneuver, it will always be close. I can't read french but given the canned nature of these exercises it is hard to tell how it started.

Quoting tommytoyz (Thread starter):
High sustained Gs are also good for defeating inbound missiles, the more the better.

Not sure what you mean by this. The 9G turns in the video are instantaneous turns, given the huge speed and probably altitude loss. It does show perfectly how a WVR fight occurs though. Both aircraft pull max G instantaneous turns trying to get that first IR shot off until they are low on speed. Then it comes down to which one can recover energy and still turn their nose, maybe as well which pilot recovers quicker given the high G load. Also shows how important high AoA is in allowing you that first IR shot.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:33 pm

Nice to see what the boys at Dassault are dreaming of lately. if it were MY Life, I'd rather be the pilot of the F-22.
On a YouTube video, you can have F-4s defeating F-22s as well.
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GDB
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 3):
Nice to see what the boys at Dassault are dreaming of lately. if it were MY Life, I'd rather be the pilot of the F-22.
On a YouTube video, you can have F-4s defeating F-22s as well.

So you are saying it is fake?

Did you read the text below, which said that it's not about which type is better, at least in this instance.
It is however an interesting look at close combat by two modern types, neither of which has yet to go and do it for real against enemy aircraft. The Rafale of course has seen plenty of air to ground in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali.
They led the air attacks on Libya in fact, prior to the US, RAF or others. In the strike on Gaddafi's forces bombarding Benghazi. This at least showed confidence in it's ability to penetrate hostile airspace, which had a fairly decent SAM/AAA capability, before the suppressive packages of Tomahawks, stand off weapons, SEAD went in.

I was struck by the physical exertions of the pilot at high G's.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 2):
No surprise as the F-22 isn't a wonder machine. It is optimized for supersonic flight and maneuver and therefore when it comes WVR of the eurocanards, who are designed for sub-sonic maneuver, it will always be close. I can't read french but given the canned nature of these exercises it is hard to tell how it started.

My guess is BFM, both starting at visual range. Looks like at around 4 minutes 40 seconds, the Rafale stalled trying to catch the Raptor going over the top. Looks like the Raptor didn't extend properly and the Rafale fell right onto his 6 o'clock, so the Raptor pilot messed up. Had the Raptor pilot extend properly, the Rafale would have been "dead" as the Raptor pilot would have had enough energy to get a better angle on the Rafale.

I also like how the Rafale's radar keeps losing target track on the Raptor even though they're WVR.

Of course, if in a real combat scenario, the Rafale would have been dead prior to the merge... BFM is not exactly the best way to test aircraft superiority, it more of a matter of pilot skill.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 5):
Of course, if in a real combat scenario, the Rafale would have been dead prior to the merge

Assuming the Rafale could not defeat inbound A2A missiles. In real world stats for A2A missiles hitting are far less than 50% of the time if I remember correctly. Yes missiles are getting better all the time, but so are measures to defeat them. The further away the missiles are shot from, the less likely they are to hit, as the stats also show, from what I remember.

Assuming the F-22 pilot messed up is.....interesting, since you do not know all the metrics of the F-22 in this situation. The brute force of having to go through those Gs is palpable. That's why you need automation as much as possible as under that kind of stress, your focus narrows. The Rafale for instance has automatic A2A countermeasures, flares, decoys, jamming, etc...No pilot could do that will pulling 9Gs.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 2):
Not sure what you mean by this. The 9G turns in the video are instantaneous turns, given the huge speed and probably altitude loss.

1. I never said the 9Gs in the video were sustained
2. However, the better your turning performance is, the better it is for a lot of situations
3. It is not clear if the speed and altitude losses are attributable to the turning or other parts of the maneuvers, such as high AoA or deliberate decent on the part of the F-22.
4. Every turn has an instantaneous G value at a certain point in time - sustained or not. I think you mean pulling high Gs for a very short duration. Just nit picking here, but some here are using the terms "instantaneous Gs" and "short duration Gs" interchangeably. However, they are two entirely different things.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
Assuming the F-22 pilot messed up is.....interesting, since you do not know all the metrics of the F-22 in this situation.

Pretty obvious the F-22 pilot made a mistake, as he had the energy to continue the fight in the vertical while the Rafale stalled, and all he had to do was to extend properly and he would be right on the Rafale's rear.

Remember: BFM is more about pilot skill, not aircraft performance. A good pilot makes the most of the advantages of his aircraft while minimizing the deficiencies of his aircraft.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
Assuming the Rafale could not defeat inbound A2A missiles. In real world stats for A2A missiles hitting are far less than 50% of the time if I remember correctly. Yes missiles are getting better all the time, but so are measures to defeat them. The further away the missiles are shot from, the less likely they are to hit, as the stats also show, from what I remember.

It's a situational. If it's the edge of the missile's envelope, then the pk would be a lot lower than if it was in the NEZ. Also mis-employment of the weapons (such as firing a missile at a target outside it's engagement zone) will guarantee a miss.

Pk is also quite dependent on how precise targeting information can be fed to the missile. If targeting information is precise, then pk will be decent even in long range shots with low missile kinetic energy. With imprecise targeting information pk will be very poor even with missile rocket thrust.

A lot of pk is also dependent on warning the target gets before missile is about to hit. With no warning, even a slow unpowered missile will likely hit the target. With early warning, the pk will go down as the target will try to evade the missile and make the engagement as difficult to the missile as possible. With a combination of LPI radar systems, a VLO airframe, and good sensors, one can make life extremely difficult for any aircraft without such a combination, as one can provide accurate targeting information to a missile while reducing the chance of the enemy detecting you and evading the missiles, and at the same time, you can fire your long range missiles closer so that the missiles have more energy during the engagement. With weapons like AMRAAM, when the terminal guidance radar turns on alerting the target's RWR, you literally have a few seconds before that missile impacts the target, and that's not enough time for a pilot to react.

I'll show you this video from the HUD of a F-16 involved in the Package Q Strike during Gulf War I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMu6mGgqepo

Imagine yourself in that cockpit, dodging missiles successfully. Ask yourself what your situational awareness would be (Listen to the radio calls looking for the guy that got hit...). Imagine the stress hearing over the radio that everyone is under attack, and some of your wingmen are being shot down while you are trying to dodge enemy missiles. Listen to the radio chatter past the 4 minute mark and hear how stressed everyone is.

Now try to imagine dodging missiles, while closing in with the shooter you weren't able to detect until after it had fired, and you can't retaliate against the shooter (assuming you can detect it even after it fired, and bearing in mind the shooter isn't likely alone out there). How would you think the engagement would work out?

What makes you think the enemy will want to get in WVR to dog fight, as the enemy can always choose to deal with you at BVR and be done with it. There is no rule that says one has to fight your enemy WVR.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:12 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
I'll show you this video from the HUD of a F-16 involved in the Package Q Strike during Gulf War I:

Ancient history. These days, A2A missiles are detected by IR sensors and counter measures are much more effective and automated.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
the enemy can always choose to deal with you at BVR and be done with it.

Another incorrect assumption, similar to the 100% kill rate probability of A2A missiles.

Fighter fight each other, encounter each other and they always will - at least in the next few decades. When it happens, if you think that you will always

1. Have missiles left
2. All your fired missiles will hit their mark
3. Have enough fuel left to outrun or avoid enemies
4. Be in a superior firing position
5. Be faster or be able to outrun the enemy
6. Be in a much higher state of kinetic energy than the enemy when encountered

Are nothing more than relying on luck. In war anything and everything happens and no war fighter should rely on certain situations not occurring. Otherwise, when they inevitably do, the days of that individual are counted.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:21 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
Pretty obvious the F-22 pilot made a mistake, as he had the energy

How do you know what his AoA, G load and energy state was in that instant? There is no way for you to determine that.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:32 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 8):
Ancient history. These days, A2A missiles are detected by IR sensors and counter measures are much more effective and automated.

Not ancient history. IR sensors have limited ranges against certain targets and a missile inbound is a fairly small target. You will probably at most detect a missile inbound at around 15-20 miles out, and with a missile traveling at Mach 2-3, a missile impact is literally a few seconds away.

Also, the F-16 Block 30, 40's & 50's in the video I showed have automated counter measures, and they were the state-of-the art against Iraqi air defences using everything from WWII AAA guns to fairly modern Soviet supplied SAM's. They also had the benefit of clear skies in daylight where they could visually see the SAM launches to react to them. And even then, 2 F-16's were shot down out of a package of over 50, with most of the remaining jets damaged in one way or another. If you listen to the background noise, you will also hear the F-16's RWR's going off alerting the pilot he's been locked onto. And they also had to face MiG-29's menacing them as they left.

So you had F-16 pilots in a situation where they had plenty of warning that they were being targeted and fired upon by a opponent without the ability to retaliate and they still took losses.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 8):
Another incorrect assumption, similar to the 100% kill rate probability of A2A missiles.
1. Have missiles left
2. All your fired missiles will hit their mark
3. Have enough fuel left to outrun or avoid enemies
4. Be in a superior firing position
5. Be faster or be able to outrun the enemy
6. Be in a much higher state of kinetic energy than the enemy when encountered

Are nothing more than relying on luck. In war anything and everything happens and no war fighter should rely on certain situations not occurring. Otherwise, when they inevitably do, the days of that individual are counted.

It's a correct assumption, as someone with a VLO airframe, a LPI radar and good sensors will have the ability to setup the terms of the engagement to their advantage. If they don't have the advantage, you simply don't engage. No one says you have to always engage the enemy. Sometimes it is a better idea to bug out before the shooting starts to fight another day.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 9):
How do you know what his AoA, G load and energy state was in that instant? There is no way for you to determine that.
BFM is about the pilot's skill not aircraft performance. A good pilot makes the most of the advantages of his aircraft while minimizing the deficiencies of his aircraft, which means he keeps a eye on all of the factors you mentioned and works to make sure that he gets the advantage. That's why you hear of situations where instructor pilots flying T-38's beat new F-22 pilots in BFM.

[Edited 2013-06-19 19:40:19]
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:01 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
So you are saying it is fake?



Let's just say I have my doubts. I seen both in action at various Red Flag exercises during my career.

[Edited 2013-06-20 04:09:33]
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bikerthai
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 6):
Assuming the Rafale could not defeat inbound A2A missiles. In real world stats for A2A missiles hitting are far less than 50% of the time if I remember correctly.

In trying to defeat the inbound A2A, the Rafale would have lost any energy advantage while the Raptor is already maneuvering for a second shot.

Given a choice I would choose first and second shot first. Then may be turn tail before I have to use real bullets.

bt
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cjg225
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):

I'll show you this video from the HUD of a F-16 involved in the Package Q Strike during Gulf War I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMu6mGgqepo

Very interesting. Thanks for the post.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 12):
In trying to defeat the inbound A2A, the Rafale would have lost any energy advantage while the Raptor is already maneuvering for a second shot.

All depends on the scenario. The reverse could also be true. In real war you do not get to control and choose when, where or how the enemy flies.

This video is quite long and is not some lucky situation where the F-22 happens across the opponent's nose. Rather it seems to be pulling max Gs and all it's got to get away, but it can't.

Anything less than an F-22 would probably be clubbed like a baby seal by Rafale or similar performing aircraft.
 
flightsimer
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:25 am

Interesting as the article I previously read said that out of 7 dogfights, they tied 6 times and the F-22 won on the other.
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Powerslide
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 11):
Let's just say I have my doubts. I seen both in action at various Red Flag exercises during my career.

To add, the military's top priority isn't to let the world know of its aircraft's true capabilities. Pretty funny reading some message boards, especially this one, where some people think they know WTF is going on. Hilarious really.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:32 am

Everybody missed the part of the video where they said the F-22 had external tanks, and the Rafale didn't? Not that I know anything about WVR combat, but that seems important...

Now, that was the only part of the text in English too, so maybe I missed some French text stating something else.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 17):
Everybody missed the part of the video where they said the F-22 had external tanks,

I saw that. But that information is almost useless as we don't know if there was any fuel in the F-22's tanks, or if there was - how much. Nor if the Rafale had external tanks and if the Rafale did, how much fuel Rafale was in them, etc...A lot of missing data.

I would personally assume that in the number of engagements that they had, that they tried to make the carried loads representative of reality, otherwise why bother? To me, the two seem about evenly matched in the WVR dogfight scenario.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 18):
I would personally assume that in the number of engagements that they had, that they tried to make the carried loads representative of reality, otherwise why bother? To me, the two seem about evenly matched in the WVR dogfight scenario.

Not really; remember that in the past, during a series of mock engagements between Luftwaffe Typhoon's and F-22's, the Typhoons were reported to have been clean aerodynamically with no external weapons and fuel:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ress-during-red-flag-debut-373312/

Quote:
The Typhoons were stripped of their external fuel tanks and slicked off as much as possible before the encounter with the Raptors, says Grune, who adds that in that configuration, the Typhoon is an "animal".

The thing is, as repeated multiple times, basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) isn't about aircraft performance, its about pilot skill.
 
flagon
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:15 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 17):
Everybody missed the part of the video where they said the F-22 had external tanks, and the Rafale didn't? Not that I know anything about WVR combat, but that seems important...

well I suggest you learn a little bit of french, as the text in french explains that we could read in the american press that the F22 had external tank, but the close up images from the Rafale OSF clearly showed that the Raptor was in clean configuration....
Stephane
 
flagon
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:28 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 19):
The thing is, as repeated multiple times, basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) isn't about aircraft performance, its about pilot skill.

You can think what you want and let others think what they want.

I personally think your statement is over simplistic and that aircraft performance is equally as important as pilot skills...
Stephane
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:36 am

PB,

Is there any scenario for you, that you can envision, where a Lockheed designed product, loses the day to someone else? Your posts are so Lockheed supportive, it's fanatical. You go so far as to make up derogatory stories on competing products. Can you answer my question?

On another note, if you would bother to read your link, you would see it does not support your statement.

[Edited 2013-06-26 00:37:28]
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:40 am

Quoting flagon (Reply 21):
I personally think your statement is over simplistic and that aircraft performance is equally as important as pilot skills...

I concur, otherwise we would still be flying the F-86 with huge success. PB.s statements also denigrate the F-22 pilots unjustly, IMHO.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:44 am

Quoting flagon (Reply 21):
You can think what you want and let others think what they want.

I personally think your statement is over simplistic and that aircraft performance is equally as important as pilot skills...

Not really, otherwise, F-22's flown by regular or new pilots would not be beaten by instructor pilots flying aggressor in T-38 Talon's... now, would you argue that the T-38 Talon is a equal or better than the F-22? Nope. It's the skill of the pilot that counts.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:33 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 24):

Not really, otherwise, F-22's flown by regular or new pilots would not be beaten by instructor pilots flying aggressor in T-38 Talon's

Yes really, because again, you have no idea what all the parameters were. You make personal assumptions you pass as fact. But you don't know all the relevant data for a fact. It could also have been an exercise to help the Talon Pilot learn. And there was only (count them) 1 reported example BTW. So I am curious as to your use of the plural, as if this were a regular occurrence. More assumptions.

BYW, can you please answer my question from my previous post? Would be much appreciated.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:40 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 25):
It could also have been an exercise to help the Talon Pilot learn.

A T-38 Talon is the USAF's leading jet trainer. It's the aircraft where jet fighter pilots learn how to handle a high performance jet fighter before moving onto their assigned aircraft. It's not a fighter, it's a jet trainer. Mind you, it is still a very potent trainer and adversary aircraft in BFM as it is a very small visual target and is very nimble.

I will note that both the Eurofighter and the Rafale are both very hot potatoes to handle for any opponent in BFM and will take a good pilot in a reasonably comparable or superior platform to fight against it. F-22 is not invincible, but good piloting skill and tactics will minimize any potential deficiencies of the F-22 in combat, and leverage its strengths.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 25):
So I am curious as to your use of the plural, as if this were a regular occurrence. More assumptions.

Considering that Langley and Tyndall AFB got permanently assigned T-38 Talon's early last year for adversary support and proficiency training, encounters are more common between the Talon's and the Raptor's. On top of that, the T-38's also have access to the AN/ALQ-188 jamming pods for additional adversary training. They've had have plenty of opportunity to regularly go up against each other for training purposes.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 23):
I concur, otherwise we would still be flying the F-86 with huge success. PB.s statements also denigrate the F-22 pilots unjustly, IMHO.

Pilot skill is a major determiner of success in BFM. A pilot fresh out of flight academy strapped into a F-22 will be humiliated by a instructor pilot flying a T-38 in BFM (and that's why we ensure fighter pilots get tons of time in the air to practice so pilots don't have to learn these lessons the hard way in a real shooting war). Flight performance will get you there part of the way, but you need to have the skills and knowledge to put it all together to make the best use of your tools to win.

And note that I qualify the statement by stating 'in BFM'. If the engagement started out from BVR to the merge, the F-22 will be dominant from the beginning. A fighter pilot in another forum said this when he went up against the F-22:

Quote:

I'm a Viper driver and I've had the opportunity to fight one (well, a couple really.) Without going where I can't go, I have to say that the Raptor beat up on me, my formation, the Eagles, and the other red air without me ever seeing him until he rolled in on my 6 and gunned the tar out of me. Wasn't much I could do about it! I have fought many other jets in the world - Eagles, Hornets, Hogs (for what that's worth), MiGs, Mirages (2000 & F1), and several other types & nationalities I'm forgetting about I'm sure - I have lost some, but won most fights. The Raptor changed the way I thought about fighting - I have never felt so defenseless before, I'm just glad I am on their side.

The earlier posts about it not being about the Raptor's maneuverability are right on - between how high, fast, and how amazing his technology was we (the many red air) were dead about as fast as the controller could pass the words. I am used to a rhythm in air-air engagements and they just destroyed the tempo - their tune was over before we had really even started.

The bottom line: I was a skeptic and thought it should be done away and replaced with new Bl 60 Vipers - now . . . well, to repeat myself, I'm just glad I'm on their side. Now can I have one too? If not, then I'd be happy to jump on the second line in a new Bl60 or F-35.
Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 25):
BYW, can you please answer my question from my previous post? Would be much appreciated.

Not going to go there because that's an attempt to make it personal (and thus a violation of the forum's TOS), and I am not going to respond on that.
 
flagon
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:19 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 26):
Pilot skill is a major determiner of success in BFM.

I think we all agree with that.
I would add it is very important that the pilot knows by heart the potential and performance of its plane, and on that basis make decisions that are adequate with its oponent's skills and plane.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 26):
A fighter pilot in another forum said this when he went up against the F-22

I may be missing the point but It seems to me that the fighter pilot post you quote seems to highlight the importance of having a performant aircraft doesn't it?
I am not trying to be difficult with you but I must admit slightly confused as to your point.
Stephane
 
flagon
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:24 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 24):
now, would you argue that the T-38 Talon is a equal or better than the F-22?

That does not negate the fact that aircraft performances is very important... providing that the pilot knows how to use them, and in adequation with his oponent's tactics and plane.
Stephane
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:28 am

Quoting flagon (Reply 27):
I think we all agree with that.
I would add it is very important that the pilot knows by heart the potential and performance of its plane, and on that basis make decisions that are adequate with its oponent's skills and plane.

Good. I'm glad we can agree.  
Quoting flagon (Reply 27):
I may be missing the point but It seems to me that the fighter pilot post you quote seems to highlight the importance of having a performant aircraft doesn't it?
I am not trying to be difficult with you but I must admit slightly confused as to your point.

Notice how the pilot said that he didn't even see the F-22's until one was on his rear taking a gun shot at him as the rest of his wingmen and Red air counterparts were shot out of the sky by a foe they could not see. The F-22 had the performance and the F-22's pilots had the skill to dominate the engagement. That's a more realistic combat scenario than two fighters starting a fight within visual range of each other.
 
spudh
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 18):
I saw that. But that information is almost useless as we don't know if there was any fuel in the F-22's tanks, or if there was - how much. Nor if the Rafale had external tanks and if the Rafale did, how much fuel Rafale was in them, etc...A lot of missing data.

I would assume that the drop tanks on the F-22 are not there to carry fuel at all (why would they be with the internal fuel capacity of the F-22 being what it is?) but are there to give the F-22 exactly the radar signature that the USAF wants an F-22 engaged with a foreign country's most advancd radar to have. And I think we can safely assume that they contain exactly whatever material gives that signature. And I think we can safely assume that they impose exactly the BFM limitations the USAF wants a foreign power to think the F-22 has.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 18):
I would personally assume that in the number of engagements that they had, that they tried to make the carried loads representative of reality, otherwise why bother? To me, the two seem about evenly matched in the WVR dogfight scenario.

Why on earth would you want to level the playing field when engaged in dissimilar combat?

I'm not trying to downgrade the performance or achievement of the Rafale, it is clearly an exceptional dog fighter as you would expect of a modern canard. But if you want to talk reality you can't if you are going to talk about a Raptor engaged WVR with drop tanks because it will simply never happen. Go right back to WW2 when the first thing a P51 did when it spotted a german fighter was to drop its tanks, nothing has changed.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 19):
The thing is, as repeated multiple times, basic fighter maneuvers (BFM) isn't about aircraft performance, its about pilot skill.

I wouldn't entirely agree with that one PB. I would agree that a large proportion of an outcome is down to the pilot but his mount is still going to play a big part. The instructor in his talon will beat most rookies on his first engagement but at the end of that training programme the roles should be reversed because the gap between pilot skill levels will have closed but the gap between the fighters will still be the same.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:27 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 26):
If the engagement started out from BVR to the merge, the F-22 will be dominant from the beginning.

You contradict yourself. On the one hand you say pilot performance is key and here you say aircraft performance is key, depending on certain parameters. Either the pilot is a dufuse or not.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 26):
A pilot fresh out of flight academy strapped into a F-22 will be humiliated by a instructor pilot flying a T-38

No USAF pilots straight out of flight training (or flight academy as you name it) are flying the F-22. Right now they go through specialized training for fighter pilots and gather experience on the F-16 before being allowed to fly the F-22. None are wet behind the ears straight of out stick and rudder school.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 26):
Not going to go there because that's an attempt to make it personal (and thus a violation of the forum's TOS), and I am not going to respond on that.


It is an innocent question and personal, yes, but only as in trying to know your personal opinion on this question. Stating personal opinions is not a violation of anything here. So can you please answer here why you are you so extremely biased in favor of the latest Lockheed products in your posts? Just wondering what your personal reasons are.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 30):
But if you want to talk reality you can't if you are going to talk about a Raptor engaged WVR with drop tanks

The video shows the F-22 clean with no drop tanks.
 
flagon
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 32):
The video shows the F-22 clean with no drop tanks

Correct

At 1min 36sec, the video shows a snapshot of the Rafale OSF showing the Raptor during that very dogfight. It can be seen that the Raptor did not have any drop tank.

At 1min 56sec, one can see what a Raptor fitted with drop tanks looks like, for the comparison.
Stephane
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:12 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 31):
You contradict yourself. On the one hand you say pilot performance is key and here you say aircraft performance is key, depending on certain parameters. Either the pilot is a dufuse or not.

Pay attention to what I said. I indicated that pilot skill becomes the predominant factor in BFM, which is close in, visual combat. Once you move out to the beyond visual range fight, aircraft performance plays a slightly bigger role.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 31):
No USAF pilots straight out of flight training (or flight academy as you name it) are flying the F-22. Right now they go through specialized training for fighter pilots and gather experience on the F-16 before being allowed to fly the F-22. None are wet behind the ears straight of out stick and rudder school.

It was a hyperbole. But instructor and aggressor pilots are highly trained seasoned vet's, often past their 3rd or later fighter assignment. By then, that displays that the pilot in question has excellent piloting and decision making skills. A weak/lazy/etc. guy will usually get one tour in the jet and then he's off to UAS's, trainers, etc. He might get back into the fighter cockpit later, but he might not. A strong guy will get a follow-on fighter assignment, make the most of his second assignment and, if he's elite among his peers, get assigned to a aggressor squadron.

In short, pilots that fly in aggressor and instruction squadrons are usually among the top fighter pilots in the military.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:47 pm

Mr. Lockheed:

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 34):
In short, pilots that fly in aggressor and instruction squadrons are usually among the top fighter pilots in the military.

The topic is F-22 pilots. On that, it is a fact that they are well trained and never new right out of flight training.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 24):
F-22's flown by regular or new pilots would not be beaten by instructor pilots flying aggressor in T-38 Talon's

Again, happened only once, with (to you) unknown engagement rules and for unknown purposes. Secondly, there are no new pilots flying F-22s.

According to your logic, the French and German pilots are superior to the USAF F-22 pilots. But I doubt that. I think they're all about equally capable and the kills against the F-22 are not down to inferior F-22 pilots as you seem to think.

[Edited 2013-06-26 16:15:16]
 
spudh
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 33):

How can you draw that conclusion from the video?

My french is fairly rudimentary, but my english is a little better so you might understand why I'm basing my assumption on the text before the video clip where it says "The F-22 were dogfighting with external tanks reducing their maneuvering capabilities" rather than stock images which may or may not be from the video. The actual footage is too fleeting to draw any conclusions as to whether tanks were fitted or not so I'm inclined to believe the author of the video.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:56 am

Quoting flagon (Reply 20):
well I suggest you learn a little bit of french, as the text in french explains that we could read in the american press that the F22 had external tank, but the close up images from the Rafale OSF clearly showed that the Raptor was in clean configuration....

Calm down. I said I didn't know much about it. No need to spout stuff about life tips of learning other languages. All I was saying was the only English in the video mentioned that, and I can't very well copy and paste text from the video into Google translate.

At any rate, do we know how the Rafale was configured? Just wondering, that's all.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
flagon
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:51 am

Quoting spudh (Reply 36):
Quoting spudh (Reply 36):
"The F-22 were dogfighting with external tanks reducing their maneuvering capabilities"

The video said the statement above was reported by the US press, the video then aims to demonstrate that this statement was inaccurate, and shows a snapshot of the F22 taken during that dogfight from the Rafale OSF to backup this statement.

It s all about perception but I am inclined to believe the author of the video because I just don't see the point of taking a F22 to some BFM exercise with drop tanks.
Plus I would guess that type of Rafale vs Raptor encounters must pretty rare, which kind of suggests the OSF snapshot shown at 1min36 comes from that very dog fight.

This is just my perception, and don't get me wrong, I don't think we can draw much of a conclusion from that video as to the relative performance of the planes. It's an interesting video, that's all.
Stephane
 
flagon
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:57 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 37):
No need to spout stuff about life tips of learning other languages

My apologise...

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 37):
At any rate, do we know how the Rafale was configured? Just wondering, that's all

It was probably in clean configuration, but I would guess this is impossible to verify for sure, and to be honest, I don't think knowing the answer would allow us to draw any robust conclusions. There are to many unkowns...
Stephane
 
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autothrust
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 2):
It is optimized for supersonic flight and maneuver and therefore when it comes WVR of the eurocanards, who are designed for sub-sonic maneuver, it will always be close.

That's not correct. At least not for the Typhoon, Where the Typhoon excels all other fighters is the super sonic manoeuvrability.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
cargotanker
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 35):
Secondly, there are no new pilots flying F-22s.

Since 2011 UPT graduates, new Lts, have been assigned to F-22s.

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums...nd-assignment-nights/page__st__560

Not the best of sources, but its good enough.

Why are all of you so wrapped up in dogfighting anyway? It accounts for .001% of the air combat spectrum (that's an estimate). All of these planes, Rafale, Typhoon, and F-22 will do their best to avoid WVR fights. Why give the bad guys that much of an advantage? A skilled Mig-19 (or T-38) pilot can make life rough for an F-22 pilot WVR. BVR, the Mig-19 is as dangerous as a Cessna.

When was the last air to air dogfight (WVR) that actually mattered? (meaning the success of air-to-air combat was crucial to the outcome of the conflict and a significant portion of that A2A fighting was achieved WVR) Faklands 1982?
 
Acheron
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting cargotanker (Reply 41):
When was the last air to air dogfight (WVR) that actually mattered? (meaning the success of air-to-air combat was crucial to the outcome of the conflict and a significant portion of that A2A fighting was achieved WVR) Faklands 1982?

I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that said numbers are skewed by the fact that most recent conflicts involve going up against a "country" with little to no air defence capability, let alone one that can match that of an agressor like NATO or the US.
 
cargotanker
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting cargotanker (Reply 41):
Since 2011 UPT graduates, new Lts, have been assigned to F-22s.

http://www.flyingsquadron.com/forums...nd-assignment-nights/page__st__560

Not the best of sources, but its good enough.

Let me correct myself, this practice started in 2008. Better source:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123082508

Looks like UPT grads would do some training in the F-16 before moving on to the F-22.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting cargotanker (Reply 41):
Since 2011 UPT graduates, new Lts, have been assigned to F-22s.

No USAF pilot goes directly from graduating from UPT and hops directly into the F-22 as their next plane.

They first get experience in the T-38 and the F-16 and get a specialized fighter training course.

By learning to push the envelope in the F-16, the Raptor Lead-in course is designed to help them be successful in the maneuvering dynamics of the F-22, Major Munter said.

These new F-22 pilots are not new to flying fighters and are heavily trained before they fly the F-22.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 44):

These new F-22 pilots are not new to flying fighters and are heavily trained before they fly the F-22.

They are only getting 5 weeks of advanced flight training before they get into the F-22:
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123082508

Quote:
The Raptor Lead-in course is a five-week opportunity for the four new pilots to experience flying a high-G, high performance aircraft with an instructor in the back seat before taking the stick of the $169 million, single-seat F-22 by themselves, said Maj. Daniel Munter, a 56th Training Squadron instructor pilot.

A instructor or a aggressor pilot has years of experience in jet fighters before they even get assigned to either of those two roles. I know for the USN's Weapons School, instructor and aggressor pilots usually selected on or after their 3rd fighter assignment (if they stand out from their peers), with each assignment lasting anywhere from 3-5 years. That means that at the very minimum, a instructor or aggressor pilot has at the very least, 9 years of experience in high performance jet fighters alone, and maybe the pilot would have actual combat experience as well. I would imagine USAF assignment lengths are just as long, if not longer. That is a big difference in experience compared to a pilot fresh out of flight school with a 5 week familiarization course with high performance fighters before being strapped into a F-22.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:41 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 45):
fresh out of flight school with a 5 week familiarization course

Firstly, only those scoring at the top of their class in flight training even have a chance on the F-22. Secondly, it's more than only the 5 week F-16 course that group absolves after UPT. Before they get into the F-16, they also have other training courses after UTP, including the in the T-38. You seem to belittle 5 weeks. It's not the calendar time that counts, it's the flying hours that count, as any pilot can tell you.

I think you have a simplistic view on the training and on the caliber of the F-22 pilots. You seem to be saying French and German pilots are better trained than USAF F-22 pilots. I do not concur.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 46):
Firstly, only those scoring at the top of their class in flight training even have a chance on the F-22. Secondly, it's more than only the 5 week F-16 course that group absolves after UPT. Before they get into the F-16, they also have other training courses after UTP, including the in the T-38. You seem to belittle 5 weeks. It's not the calendar time that counts, it's the flying hours that count, as any pilot can tell you.

Funny, because the basic course for introductory F-22 pilots from flight training is 335 academic hours, 205 academics events, 27 examinations, 50 sorties and 55 simulator missions, for a grand total of approximately 55 hours before they are qualified to fly the F-22:
http://www.tyndall.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123337933

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 46):

I think you have a simplistic view on the training and on the caliber of the F-22 pilots. You seem to be saying French and German pilots are better trained than USAF F-22 pilots. I do not concur.

No, the problem is that you stated this:

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 44):
No USAF pilot goes directly from graduating from UPT and hops directly into the F-22 as their next plane.

They first get experience in the T-38 and the F-16 and get a specialized fighter training course.

That is incorrect. Pilots fresh from UPT are getting placed into F-22 training straight from flight school, where they also get to fly the T-38 Talon and maybe the F-16. You stated that this wasn't the case. Granted, there maybe some experienced fighter pilots in the mix, but not all F-22 pilots are seasoned veterans.

This is not the case for aggressor and instructor pilots. As mentioned earlier, aggressor or instructor pilots usually are on or past their 3rd fighter assignment, and thus have accumulated hundreds, if not thousands of flight hours in jet fighters. They may have even flown the F-22 before in a previous assignment or have experienced actual combat.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 47):
That is incorrect. Pilots fresh from UPT are getting placed into F-22 training straight from flight school, where they also get to fly the T-38 Talon and maybe the F-16.

There is no maybe except in your mind, like X-47B non-folding wings, etc.....Even the article in your own link does not say what you claim. There is no B-course F-22 directly from "flight school".

B-course trains A-list pilots - that's your own link headline PB. It's only the B-course for already top pilots.

Again, as already posted here with verifiable links above: to fly the F-22, after top UPT pilots first go through the T-38, then the F-16 and other courses specific to fighters and the criteria and the B-course you cite. The B-course is not the entire criteria, as you claim. PB you can choose to think whatever anuses you. We will have to agree to disagree on this point and leave it there. Discussing this any further is pointless.

[Edited 2013-07-01 18:32:35]
 
cargotanker
Posts: 175
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RE: Nice Video Of F-22 Kill

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:19 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 48):
There is no maybe except in your mind, like X-47B non-folding wings, etc.....Even the article in your own link does not say what you claim. There is no B-course F-22 directly from "flight school".

I guess Pointblank and I made the mistake of assuming Tommytoyz was ever going to be wrong about anything.

The bottom line is that new UPT gradautes with no operational fighter experience are getting assigned to the F-22, which you
previously stated was incorrect. You were wrong.

The IFF course (which ALL future fighter pilots attend) does not count as operational fighter experience.

A few rides with an instructor in an F-16 to see what 9gs feels like does not count as operational fighter experience.

1 tour (normally about 3 years, for those of you who are unfamiliar with military flying and live in Los Angeles) in an operational fighter squadron is what most people would consider experienced. You are trying to 'win' the argument with technicalities because you can never admit that you are wrong.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 35):
The topic is F-22 pilots. On that, it is a fact that they are well trained and never new right out of flight training.

Wrong wrong wrong.

Try it with me, quote this and put it into your next post:

Thanks, cargotanker, I didn't know that new Lts were being allowed to fly the F-22. I thought only experienced fighter pilots were allowed into F-22 units. I guess I was wrong. I'm glad you military folks are on this forum to educate guys like me who just sell houses in Los Angeles. Thanks! -tommytoyz

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