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solnabo
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Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:25 pm

Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
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Revelation
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Very complimentary article at AvWeek: Pilot Report Proves A400M’s Capabilities

Awesome plane. Too bad it costs so much and is coming to market amidst tight budgets in many places.
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autothrust
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:27 pm

Thanks for sharing.

What i find interesting is the quote from the guest pilot Fred George:

Quote:
The Atlas has some of the most capable avionics and flight controls ever fitted to a military transport. Its turboprop engines are unprecedented for their blend of power and fuel efficiency. This agile performer feels more nimble than older heavy-lift transports.

I guess even with such statement plenty of people will deny the capabilities of the plane.  
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bigjku
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 2):
I guess even with such statement plenty of people will deny the capabilities of the plane.

Anyone who denies that it is capable is fooling themselves. There are arguments to be made about the cost effectiveness of the aircraft though that are real issues with the overall program and denying those issues is also foolish. If the thing had been brought in at the initial cost projections it would be a great thing for almost everyone. It wasn't and as such it is in a somewhat awkward spot in the market in that it may be capable of doing certain tactical airlift things you would task a C-130 to but might be too expensive to risk in such operations.

If I could have an A400M for the cost of a C-130J or for that cost plus 30% it would be the worlds simplest decision. But I can't. That is a big part of why a lot of the rest of the world is buying C-17's and C-130's still. The situation is further complicated by the Germans stating they want to sell some of their aircraft. No one will buy new until they see what kind of deal they can shake the German government down for first.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:37 pm

The C-17 is not a direct competitor comparing it is apples vs oranges comparison.

While the A400M is expensive, it's running cost will be similar to the C-130 trough features like the most efficient turboprop engines in the world, aswell a CFRP Wing which doesn't corrode,etc.

Similar to the F-35 where different needs were to be fullfilled by a single design, the development is much more extensive.
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bigjku
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 4):

While the A400M is expensive, it's running cost will be similar to the C-130 trough features like the most efficient turboprop engines in the world, aswell a CFRP Wing which doesn't corrode,etc.

I don't disagree with you but it is also pretty clear that plenty of nations believe they can get by with the C-130 given the cost difference. I would not make a direct C-17 to A400M comparison but they are part of the same procurement decision. I think there are two tiers of nations looking at transport.

Supply Haulers- These are the nations that have mostly gone for C-130J's or older variants that don't seem like they want to do more than shift supplies around with their aircraft and really don't seem to have a particular capability level they need in relation to that. For many of them you are really just looking at the cost of a C-130 vs an A400M. That price difference will pay for a lot of preventative work on a C-130. Like it or not the risk factor is probably seen as lower with the C-130 than it is with the A400M as well. For many of these nations airlift capacity is a token capability or a theater level supply solution. For most of that work they seem to be very cost conscious.

Strategic Mobility- These are nations that have ambitions to conduct operations on a regional or global basis on some level and have specific task they want aircraft for. This is where the equation becomes the cost vs capability one and there are suddenly a lot of questions to answer. While the direct question is not a C-17 vs an A400M that is part of what is evaluated. Am I better off with a handful of C-17's supplemented by tactical airlift assets like the C-130 or with a pure A400M fleet? For most nations so far the answer has been the former. It could further be broken down if you have decided you need C-17's on if you should buy A400M's or C-130's to go with it. Only one nation has decided to go the C-17/A400M route so far.

That is why I say it is in somewhat of an awkward market spot. Outside of the producer nations it really has not gained much traction so far. I think to do that it needed to be in the ballpark of a C-130 in terms of price. I think if other nations really looked at the A400M as solving their strategic mobility issues they would have bought them by now.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:18 am

Nice airplane. However, the second picture, the one with the two guys standing by the nose, when I looked at it, my first thought was "gee, the front windshield reminds me of those high speed train noses". How it looks squared off from the radar dome to where it says "A400M". Like they just said lets use the ICE-1 windshield and not worry about it.

Dan in Jupiter
 
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ssteve
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:58 am

Quoting BigjKU (Reply 3):
If I could have an A400M for the cost of a C-130J or for that cost plus 30% it would be the worlds simplest decision. But I can't. That is a big part of why a lot of the rest of the world is buying C-17's and C-130's still.

Or flying what appears to be a VC-10 tanker refueling it in the final photo, rather than an A330 MRTT... that thing's at least 40 years old, right? I don't mean to derail this into an RAF tanker discussion, just to point out that military airframes go on forever.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 2):
What i find interesting is the quote from the guest pilot Fred George:

Quote:The Atlas has some of the most capable avionics and flight controls ever fitted to a military transport. Its turboprop engines are unprecedented for their blend of power and fuel efficiency. This agile performer feels more nimble than older heavy-lift transports.
I guess even with such statement plenty of people will deny the capabilities of the plane.

He was a guest pilot. He is not evaluating the A-400M for any military capability, nor is he qualified to do that. He just flew the thing, nothing more, nothing less.

Being the newest designed airlifter, it should have the newest, most advanced avionics. The same with the engines, they are also the most advanced.
 
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:12 pm

I guess we go with belittlement instead of denial?

IMHO we all gotta admit it's a kool bit of kit, despite huge schedule and budget overruns. Yeah, it can't haul MBTs around, or even some of the heavier APCs, but there is a lot one can do with it.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
cmb56
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:15 pm

Let me stir the pot here a bit. Ten years ago when the A400 was still just an idea the EU faced a choice of spending their tax dollars either in the US to buy C-17s and C-130s or in Russia to buy the AN-70. Neither was as appealing as spending the money at home to design something state of the art, gain that experience, pay the home based unions, and keep the money in the EU. Oh and they did get the airplane they wanted. Cost overruns are nothing new. Let he who is without sin in that area cast the first stone. America has her own whoppers in that respect, we can waste money better than anyone else on the planet. I see no reason why any government or corporation in the EU should buy any US built aviation product, they have their own designs and can keep the money in the community.
 
GDB
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:01 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
He was a guest pilot. He is not evaluating the A-400M for any military capability, nor is he qualified to do that. He just flew the thing, nothing more, nothing less.

Or an experienced pilot, (they would not have let him near it otherwise), with prior experience of other transports.
Better yet, not in any way affiliated with Airbus.
He was there to fly, evaluate and report.
'Flying the thing' will give a good idea of it's capability. Being a flying machine.
If it handled not so well, in both the air and on the ground, that would affect it's capability.
If the avionics and systems were not up to much, that would affect it's capability.
If it was lacking in the power department, that would affect it's capability.
It sounds rather desperate to keep on with all this belittlement.

While the C-130J may have picked up orders due to the long and often difficult A400M development, you could say the exact same about the A330 picking up more orders due to the whole 787 saga.
So by your logic, the 787 is a load of crap too?

Quoting cmb56 (Reply 10):
Let me stir the pot here a bit. Ten years ago when the A400 was still just an idea the EU faced a choice of spending their tax dollars either in the US to buy C-17s and C-130s or in Russia to buy the AN-70. Neither was as appealing as spending the money at home to design something state of the art, gain that experience, pay the home based unions, and keep the money in the EU. Oh and they did get the airplane they wanted. Cost overruns are nothing new. Let he who is without sin in that area cast the first stone. America has her own whoppers in that respect, we can waste money better than anyone else on the planet. I see no reason why any government or corporation in the EU should buy any US built aviation product, they have their own designs and can keep the money in the community.

Very true.
Given what happened with the AN-70 they dodged a bullet there.
Wish this forum had been around when the C-17 had it's own severe problems in development and those attempts to cancel it way back then.
The hypocrisy on this with the serial A400M bashers on here is astonishing and gives the clue to what it's really about. Nasty Euro crap ugh! (How dare they enter OUR captive market!)
But what a great aircraft in the C-17 that came from it.
 
astuteman
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RE: Awesome Pics Of Grizzly!

Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting BigjKU (Reply 3):
If I could have an A400M for the cost of a C-130J or for that cost plus 30% it would be the worlds simplest decision. But I can't.

Maybe not today. But you should perhaps check what the cost of early C17's was compared to what they are today. A400M acquisition costs will fall.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 4):
While the A400M is expensive, it's running cost will be similar to the C-130 trough features like the most efficient turboprop engines in the world

In TLC terms the running costs will outweigh the acquisition costs, making the A400M a lot better value than its sticker price suggests

Rgds

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