tommytoyz
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Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:51 am

Meanwhile, at Lockheed Martin’s Fort Worth facility the Netherlands formally took delivery of the first of two F-35As that it ordered in 2009 and 2011 for the operational test (OT) phase. The second is still undergoing test and acceptance flights. But instead of joining the OT fleet, the two aircraft are going into storage at Eglin AFB, the Dutch defense ministry confirmed this week. The country is wavering again about buying F-35s as its F-16 replacement. Until a decision is reached, the two aircraft will be used “for technical ground tests,” the ministry added.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...y-dutch-store-their-first-two-jets

AND

From Dutch Ministry of Defense press release

By now, the production of the second test aircraft ordered in 2011 is finalized, and that aircraft is still going through some test and acceptance flights.

Expectations are that the first test aircraft will be flown within some days by an American pilot to the U.S. air force base in Florida where the aircraft remains stored until a decision has been taken on the replacement of the F-16 in connection with the memorandum on the future of the Netherlands Armed Forces.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...livered-straight-into-storage.html
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Thread starter):
until a decision has been taken

I believe a decision will be taken in November. Until then, storage will cost 2.3 million euros.
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:51 am

So we bought two test aircraft, but we're going to make a decision without testing them. Brilliant.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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kanban
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:03 pm

I've often wondered why these "test" aircraft are being bought and delivered to foreign customers when they currently are incomplete enough to demonstrate any more than landings and take offs and air show flybys.. Yes the a few US military birds are tricked out for a larger test analysis, but most are relegated to pilot and maintenance training.. without complete capabilities, or software,. The Navy versions still don't have capture hooks that work.. testing is delayed until next year.
 
Oroka
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:11 am

They should totally stop testing and developing the most advanced fighter jet ever created just because everything didnt go off without a hitch on the first try. Forget every cent spent, and just keep flying 30-40 year old designs. Still got to buy the old designs for around $80-100m each... but yeah, DOWN WITH THE F-35!


As for the F-35C tail hook, from what I have read, both the F-35C and X-47B had the same issue because the USN provided the OEMs with inaccurate numbers on how hooks behave on the carrier decks.



They Never Said It Would Be Easy; Only That It Would Be Worth It
 
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kanban
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:52 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 4):
They Never Said It Would Be Easy; Only That It Would Be Worth It

you miss the point.. why should a customer take delivery of an incomplete unit for testing when the unit doesn't have the capabilities to test..

The question is not a bash the F-35, it's a common sense question..

As to the tail hook.. where the heck were the LM engineers and their computer simulations.. blaming this on the Navy is as absurd as believing a customer can satisfactorily fully test a plane with 30% of it's software missing.

My disgust is with the manufacturer, not the anticipated product which may yet arrive in my lifetime.
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 5):
why should a customer take delivery of an incomplete unit for testing when the unit doesn't have the capabilities to test..

Because they are not just a customer, they are a level 2 partner who has provided US$800 million into the development of the aircraft.

Level 2 partners are Italy, which is contributing US$1 billion; and the Netherlands, US$800 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II

The early deliveries of the aircraft to partner nations are for two reasons, first to contribute to the test program and second to allow early conversion of aircrew and maintainers onto the aircraft. When you have to train an entire workforce on how to operate, and repair a brand new aircraft it takes a number of years to get to that stage.

Also don't think that the F-35 is alone is this instance. Look for example at the E-2.

On 12 February 2013, the Office of the Secretary of Defense approved the E-2D Hawkeye to enter full-rate production. Northrop had delivered 9 E-2Ds to the U.S. Navy, with 11 more in various stages of manufacturing and pre-delivery flight-testing. The Navy plans for an initial operational capability by 2015. With the Navy's E-2D program of record at 75 aircraft, the decision enables the production of the remaining 55 aircraft over the next 10 years. In June 2013, the 10th E-2D was delivered to the Navy, with an additional 10 aircraft in various stages of manufacturing and predelivery flight testing. On 18 July 2013, Northrop Grumman was awarded a $113.7 million contract for five full-rate production Lot 2 E-2D Advanced Hawkeye aircraft. Total current procurement of E-2D aircraft, including low-rate initial production and full-rate production aircraft, is for 30 planes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-2_Hawkeye

For an aircraft that will have a production run of only 75 aircraft, it has 10 delivered aircraft and another 10 expected soon, long before the aircraft IOCs. So even though the aircraft is still undergoing testing and evaluation, early production versions have already been delivered. This is how you design and build military aircraft.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:12 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 6):
The early deliveries of the aircraft to partner nations are for two reasons, first to contribute to the test program

Yes, that's what I always thought their main purpose was - despite my earlier comment about the Dutch not evaluating the aircraft.

But then, why aren't these aircraft contributing to the general test program? That should upset the partners.
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:35 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 7):

But then, why aren't these aircraft contributing to the general test program? That should upset the partners.

They will be used for technical ground tests. In short, be towed around the airfield for ground testing.

I have a feeling that the Dutch will go with F-35; they have a lot industrially that will lobby very intensely with the government, and with the Dutch being a major contributor to NATO and US-led missions, they will want a fighter that will be accepted in joint operations with the US. They may elect to delay their purchase to further down the production line when unit costs decline.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:47 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 8):
I have a feeling that the Dutch will go with F-35

I think you are right. I'm sure the main purpose of buying the test aircraft from the Dutch air force's point of view is really to help commit the country to the F-35.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
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kanban
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 8):
They will be used for technical ground tests. In short, be towed around the airfield for ground testing.

let's see, we have roughly 100 F-35's built and we need these two to be towed around the airfield? and to test what? and after how many others have been towed around the field? Every bloody one at some point! So what is unique... the paint?
it smells of a boon doggle and rationalization to the nth degree.. again my complaint is not with the plane, but with the supplier and Pentagon processes and waste.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 6):
This is how you design and build military aircraft.

You can, but that is not ideal.

As to your example - The E-2D and F-35 are totally different. The Grumman E-2 Hawkeye has been around since the 1960s. Only the radar is new. As to concurrency on the F-35 program, that's been a complete mistake:

In February 2012, no less an authority than Frank Kendall, the Pentagon's acting acquisition chief characterized the F-35's grossly excessive concurrency as "acquisition malpractice." (Congressional Research Report (RL30563), F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Program, see page 7).

http://chuckspinney.blogspot.com/201...-on-f-35s-concurrency-shop-of.html

Both the F-35 program manager, Admiral David Venlet, and acting Under Secretary for
Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Frank Kendall recently took issue with “a fundamental
assumption of the JSF business model: concurrency.”

“Fundamentally, that was a miscalculation,” Venlet said.

Kendall went farther:

Putting the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter into production before flight testing
had started was “acquisition malpractice,” acting Pentagon acquisition chief Frank Kendall
told an industry group this morning at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
The program, Kendall said, had started with “the optimistic prediction that we were good
enough at modeling and simulation that we would not find problems in flight test.”
”That was wrong, and now we are paying for that,” Kendall added


[Edited 2013-07-29 09:41:18]
 
Ozair
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 11):

As to your example - The E-2D and F-35 are totally different. The Grumman E-2 Hawkeye has been around since the 1960s. Only the radar is new.

Well its more than just the radar but I agree, the programs are different and certainly have a different level of risk. It still demonstrates that the manufacturers produce production level aircraft before testing and development is complete and there are good examples from programs all over the world to demonstrate this.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 11):
“Fundamentally, that was a miscalculation,” Venlet said.

No one denies that the level of currency was a bad idea and it should not be repeated but it occurs frequently in military programs. From your own link,

And the concurrency horrors of the F-35 are by no means unique, remember the concurrency related problems that flowed out of the pre-mature production decisions for the F-111, C-5, V-22, F-22, and F-18E/F.

Interesting to note that of the above, only one design is from LM, one Lockheed, two Boeing and one GD and three are from the last 20 years. Clearly the issue is industry wide so perhaps when we decide to sling the mud we can do it industry wide?

And it should be noted that similar aged programs in the commercial sector also suffered (and continue to) from broadly similar issues.

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 11):
Kendall went farther:

The latest quite from Kendall is available here, http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive...5-No-Longer-the-Problem-Child.aspx

The F-35 program has made “major advances” over the last three years and is no longer “one of my ‘problem programs,’” Pentagon acquisition, technology and logistics chief Frank Kendall said Thursday. Speaking during a teleconference following a multi-day summit with government, contractor and allied nation F-35 managers, Kendall said he’ll green light boosting the F-35 production rate in September; going to 44 in 2015 and 66 in 2016. The meeting had a “completely different tone” than last year’s summit, noted Kendall. The program is “on track,” he said. Negotiations on Lots 6 and 7 are going “more quickly and more smoothly” than on Lot 5, which were tough because it was the first based on DOD’s “should cost” analysis, he noted. Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, program executive officer, reported far better communications between government and vendor managers, and agreed that Lot 6 and 7 talks are moving fast. “We started negotiations about a month ago, and we’ve made more progress…in 30 days than we did in about 11 months last year.” Kendall said “this is not the program of 2010,” and while he said it’s too soon to “declare success,” he said there’s a clear path to fix any remaining F-35 deficiencies. Operating costs are better understood now that the Marine Corps and Air Force are training F-35 pilots, and he predicted “we can make a substantial dent in projections” of operating costs. They will be reflected in the September cost numbers, he said.
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 10):
let's see, we have roughly 100 F-35's built and we need these two to be towed around the airfield? and to test what? and after how many others have been towed around the field? Every bloody one at some point! So what is unique... the paint?

there are 100 kicking around at various stages of readiness... there are 2 that are not supposed to be flown until the owners decide if they are keeping them or not. So, do what ground testing they can on those frames, allowing 2 other F-35s to work on in flight testing. That is better than just putting them in a warehouse and turning off the lights. They are still of some test use.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:33 am

I get the feeling their optimism in your quotes is misplaced once again. But that's par for the course in F-35 land. It's almost always sunny there. But in reality we have sequestration coming down the pike, almost no international orders so far, with many anticipated international orders possibly never being placed at all. These alone will add to per unit costs and that is not in the control of the program.

Then we have the very challenging technical issues that they do control, that were very serious just a few months ago and were predicted to take years to resolve as of recently. F-35 PR has almost always been that it's smooth sailing from here on out, that now things will get better - the reality has been much harsher.

For instance, no decision has been made on which helmet system will be used, not so speak of the transonic roll off issues, etc., and other issues that have been taking many years and will take many more and may never be satisfactorily resolved, except by reducing the performance parameters even more.

The high number of question marks is a reason why I doubt countries like Holland and Canada will go for it. If they order today, they won't know exactly what they'll be getting. Another is that their old fighters are needing a replacement decision be made now, not in 5 years. The F-35 program is simply running out of time, IMHO.
 
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kanban
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:26 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 13):
there are 100 kicking around at various stages of readiness... there are 2 that are not supposed to be flown until the owners decide if they are keeping them or not. So, do what ground testing they can on those frames, allowing 2 other F-35s to work on in flight testing. That is better than just putting them in a warehouse and turning off the lights. They are still of some test use.

is the manufacturer so incompetent that they require a separate aircraft for each test?... I'd just love to know just what these towing tests consist of that can not be handled by the other 98 planes.. or is the product so bad that after each test 500 hrs (exaggeration) of maintenance is required?... I can just see it if called upon to perform their mission.. hello China, let's have a truce next Wednesday, we need to perform maintenance of our state of the art fighters... Smacks of the tank that could go 60 miles between engine servicing..
 
Oroka
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 8):
They will be used for technical ground tests. In short, be towed around the airfield for ground testing.
Quoting kanban (Reply 15):
I'd just love to know just what these towing tests consist of

ThePointblank was really simplifying what they would be used for... not (for the most part) just towed around to see if the dynamic principal of wheels are still valid lol


There are some ground tests still to be completed... so might as well use the frames that are not to be flown. Perhaps a bit of a waste, but it is still better than stored with no use for 6 months.
 
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kanban
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:51 pm

so what ground tests still need to be accomplished.. I know I spoiled by Commercial new a/p testing.. however this seems well past the point where ground testing should be completed.. except maybe for ordinance loading for new designs.
 
Oroka
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:27 pm

Ordinance testing, developing maintenance routines, photo ops (lol). It is not the big significant stuff you hear about day to day... but it is something, which is better than being idle.
 
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kanban
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:19 pm

on the contrary, there subject the planes to wear and tear, expose them to damage, FOD, left tools, require systems power ups.. mothballing is a far better idea.. They already have nearly 100 a/c to play chess and bump cars with.
 
Ozair
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 14):
I get the feeling their optimism in your quotes is misplaced once again.

Well I get the feeling what you're really saying is you are happy to believe and quote Kendall when what he says agrees with your negative views of the program but when his comments are positive and optimistic you downplay them. A contradiction don't you think?

Quoting kanban (Reply 15):
is the manufacturer so incompetent that they require a separate aircraft for each test?... I'd just love to know just what these towing tests consist of that can not be handled by the other 98 planes.. or is the product so bad that after each test 500 hrs (exaggeration) of maintenance is required?

At the end of the program the F-35 will have undergone the most extensive test and evaluation program in the history of aviation. LM didn't specify this, the JSF program office did. I am sure if you asked LM they would have happily reduced the T&E because it saves time, money and expertise. We also are not privy to every individual test point but we know that there are literally thousands of them.

If the Dutch aircraft do get used for testing then great and is positive for the overall program. If not then the Dutch pay a sum, which considering the advanced tech in the aircraft and the security issues associated with it, is not much, then so be it.
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:29 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
on the contrary, there subject the planes to wear and tear, expose them to damage, FOD, left tools, require systems power ups.. mothballing is a far better idea.. They already have nearly 100 a/c to play chess and bump cars with.

A number of F-35's are assigned to operational and training units, so they are training F-35 pilots and maintainers.

And besides, they don't have 100 aircraft to play with; AF-34 only took first flight today, and it isn't even painted yet. AF-41 is the airframe that's number 100, and that entered final assembly a week ago.
 
Oroka
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
on the contrary, there subject the planes to wear and tear, expose them to damage, FOD, left tools, require systems power ups.. mothballing is a far better idea.. They already have nearly 100 a/c to play chess and bump cars with.

These are military aircraft, not new cars on a dealership lot.

Opening panels, testing things, installing software, wheeling them around ... probably wont do much in the way of wear and tear on a fighter jet.

Im sure that while in US possession, any damage done or discernable wear and tear will be repaired or the owner compensated. Using these jets for tests will speed things along a bit.


But now that I think about it... I swear I read that in the meantime they are starting to train Dutch pilots and maintainers. The pilots might not get any air time in these jets, but the maintainers can fiddle around in it.
 
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kanban
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:04 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 21):
And besides, they don't have 100 aircraft to play with; AF-34 only took first flight today, and it isn't even painted yet. AF-41 is the airframe that's number 100, and that entered final assembly a week ago.

so what do they have built.. something between 85 and 93?

Quoting Oroka (Reply 22):
Opening panels, testing things, installing software, wheeling them around ... probably wont do much in the way of wear and tear on a fighter jet.

Yeah right!
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:52 pm

The Netherlands will buy 37 F-35 aircraft, they finally made a decision.

Story (in Dutch):
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nl-NL...-35_s_maar_moet_ook_fors_inleveren
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
The Netherlands will buy 37 F-35 aircraft, they finally made a decision.

And to finance them I believe they are going to sell a much more useful piece of military kit the not yet launched Joint Support Ship Karel Doorman, a very stupid decision IMO.
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):
The Netherlands will buy 37 F-35 aircraft, they finally made a decision.

37!! so we've gone from 85 units for € 4.5 billion to 37 units for € 4.5 billion? impressive I must say.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:09 pm

Yes, amazing isn't?

Question, another article claims the F-35 can't fly in bad weather conditions. I haven't heard this before, is this correct? Perhaps they meant the F-35 is not allowed to fly in bad weather during it's current phase of development?

http://www.nu.nl/politiek/3577236/kabinet-kiest-definitief-jsf.html
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ThePointblank
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:28 pm

The Belgians are looking at F-35 as well:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/0...hter-belgium-idUKBRE98G14820130917

Quote:
Exclusive: Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s - source
(Reuters) - U.S. government officials have briefed the Belgian government about the capabilities of the Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) F-35 fighter jet, as Brussels prepares to replace its aging fleet of 60 F-16s, a source familiar with the matter told Reuters on Tuesday.

The source, who was not authorised to speak publicly, said Belgium was considering buying 35 to 55 of the new radar-evading F-35 jets. No decisions are expected until late 2014 at the earliest after next year's elections in Belgium.

Belgium was one of the original NATO partners to buy the F-16 fighter jet, also built by Lockheed; but unlike Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands, it did not join the international consortium that funded development of the F-35.

U.S. government officials have visited Belgium to discuss the F-35, which is being built to replace the F-16 and a dozen other warplanes in use around the world, according to the source.

The current Belgian government says a decision on replacing the F-16s will be made by the next government after elections in early summer 2014.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:50 am

Everyone is looking at it and is not ordering so far, except UK, Japan and Israel. Australia, Canada, Holland and Italy haven't placed any production orders beyond a few test models. Isn't it about time they did? If they don't order soon, they wont ever, IMHO.

Italy recently placed a political restriction by requiring full parliamentary approval for the government to order any more F-35s, taking away executive discretion. Italy has not yet decided to order them for their air force and Italy is facing extreme budget constraints. The writing is on the wall in many countries.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 30):
Holland (...) haven't placed any production orders

The Netherlands announced they would buy 37 just yesterday, as mentioned in reply 24.
Attamottamotta!
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:28 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 29):
Belgium was considering buying 35 to 55 of the new radar-evading F-35 jets.

What? Our good friends from the south may have a bigger Air Force than the Netherlands?  Wow! That will be hard thing to swallow for some people in the Dutch military    But the Belgians will have the time of their life if that happens   
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:40 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 32):
What? Our good friends from the south may have a bigger Air Force than the Netherlands?

The fact is that some Nations that ordered the F-35 minimises the number by 40 - 50%, some even more so  so we do not know what number ends up with in this case IF it decide to go for the F-35...
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petertenthije
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:01 pm

The original requirement (many moons ago) was 78 planes for around 4.5 billion USD. But because lockheed is unable to do anything without blowing their budget we now get 37 planes for 4.5 billion. Let's hope the price is set in stone so we are not affected by any future price increases.

Quoting frigatebird,reply=32What? Our good friends from the south may have a bigger Air Force than the Netherlands?:

The RNLAF is also retiring 7 more F-16s, we'll be down to 61 fighters then. Belgium has 59 F-16, so one mid-air collision and they are our equals (bit of black humour on a gloomy day).
Attamottamotta!
 
mrg
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:31 pm

My question to the Dutch forum members: why have you guys gone for a first-day-of-war plane? Surely an F-16 Block 60 would have been the better option. The operations that you'll probably be participating in will be interventions in failed states. Your Pacer Amstel fleet with Tape 6.1 handles those kind of combined ops just fine.
The F-16 has evolved into a Picatinny Rail with wings. The F-35 Lifestyle Fighter is never going to be that flexible.
 
tommytoyz
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 30):
The Netherlands announced they would buy 37 just yesterday, as mentioned in reply 24.

Link to the official announcement? Because as far as I know, to date, Holland has made no such announcement. Let's wait for any official announcement or an actual order.

[Edited 2013-09-18 12:24:54]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:26 pm

Hmm it's all over the Dutch news?
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
petertenthije
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:22 pm

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 35):
Link to the official announcement? Because as far as I know, to date, Holland has made no such announcement. Let's wait for any official announcement or an actual order.

Well, being Dutch we are a tad more likely to hear about this earlier then you. Unless you work for the NSA of course.  

Here's a link to a statement at the site of the Dutch ministry of defence. It also lists all the other stuff that will be scrapped: 7 F-16s and the Gulfstream, a supply ship still under construction, a mechnized infantry brigade, some other bits and pieces. It's in Dutch though.

http://www.defensie.nl/actueel/uitge...t/nota_minister_hennis_plasschaert
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Mortyman
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting mrg (Reply 34):
My question to the Dutch forum members: why have you guys gone for a first-day-of-war plane?
Quoting mrg (Reply 34):
Surely an F-16 Block 60 would have been the better option.

Because the F16 is not a 5 generation fighter ?
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:44 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):
Because the F16 is not a 5 generation fighter ?

And?
The electronics are the most important part of a fighter. A Block 60 has good electronics.

The Dutch are going to spend as much money supporting 37 F-35s as they spend on supporting 68 F-16s.

A great deal for Lockheed but I wonder if it's a great deal for the customer.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:57 am

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 33):
The original requirement (many moons ago) was 78 planes for around 4.5 billion USD. But because lockheed is unable to do anything without blowing their budget we now get 37 planes for 4.5 billion. Let's hope the price is set in stone so we are not affected by any future price increases.

The Dutch may be intending to order in batches, so 37 might not be the final number. The Dutch even ordered more than what was planned back 2009, which was 27 F-35's in the initial order, with a second batch to be decided in 2015.
 
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:30 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 40):
The Dutch may be intending to order in batches, so 37 might not be the final number. The Dutch even ordered more than what was planned back 2009, which was 27 F-35's in the initial order, with a second batch to be decided in 2015.

Back in 2009 they still thought that they could get 80 F-35 for €4,5 billion...... therefor more natural to take them in batches.....thats not the case today! it,s 37!

Quoting mrg (Reply 39):
A great deal for Lockheed but I wonder if it's a great deal for the customer.

I would say that LM Winns this one with 100-1.
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:07 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 35):
Link to the official announcement? Because as far as I know, to date, Holland has made no such announcement.


The decision is included in the government plans for the new parlementary year, announced on Tuesday. It's not an order yet but an announcement it is.
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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 40):
The Dutch may be intending to order in batches, so 37 might not be the final number.

No, 37 is indeed the planned final number, and that will only go down as the budget has been fixed. I agree such a fleet size makes no sense, whatever you think of the F-35. We need to downgrade and leave the first day of WW III to the great powers I'm afraid.

[Edited 2013-09-19 02:13:57]
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Kiwirob
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:38 am

It is a stupid decision, I'm still shocked that they are dumping the Karel Doorman to help fund these flying testiament to corporate greed and American military procurement stupidity, Gripen or F16 are more than enough for all European Airforces baring those that will get involved in first day of war conflicts (UK, France and maybe Germany).
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:04 am

It ain't over till the fat lady sings!

Currently the government decided on an order for 37 F-35's, it's now up to parliament to agree or disagree with this decision.

Yesterday a report was published by our Rekenkamer (say our GAO) which was quite critical on this decision (but decideley less critical than previous reports). They are very sceptic about the ability for the RNLAF to have four F-35's permanently available for international missions, next to air policing our skies, trainingflights and maintenance with the 37 planned F-35's.

So, I think we need to make some tough decisions here. Do we want such a small number of fighters, which are top-notch, but probably making it impossible to continue our involvement in international missions, or do we want a cheaper plane, enabling us to continue our international role? If it's the last, we need to adapt our ambitions accordingly. I'm in favour of the last. Let's have an air force with more planes, albeit a little les modern. Or, lets just pool the airforces of Belgium and The Netherlands together.

The coalition-party Partij van de Arbeid (Labour party) faction in parliament, of which its ministers concurred on the proposed order, also doesn't have made its mind up wheter they are going to support the decision of the cabinet. If they don't agree with these plans, the order, and in my opinion, the whole F-35 in Dutch service is dead in the water, as is our lame-duck coaltion government I suspect.

To be continued...

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ptrjong
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:15 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 45):
it's now up to parliament to agree or disagree with this decision.

Not exactly. It's just a purchase, not a new law. No vote is needed.
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LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:40 am

Quoting ptrjong (Reply 46):
Not exactly. It's just a purchase, not a new law. No vote is needed.

Yes, it is. The purchase is to be included in a budget of the Ministry of Defense. Parliament has to vote if they agree with the proposed budget. If they don't, the cabinet has to draw another budget. In this case a seperate budget will be made for this purchase.

Parliament (both houses!) have the final say, they hand out the money...

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frigatebird
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting mrg (Reply 39):
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 38):Because the F16 is not a 5 generation fighter ?

And?
The electronics are the most important part of a fighter. A Block 60 has good electronics.

The Dutch are going to spend as much money supporting 37 F-35s as they spend on supporting 68 F-16s.

Something I have thought earlier this year and raised the question in another F35 thread, but never got a reply. The F16 is still being produced, and with the latest electronics it should be fine for a country like the Netherlands. I never understood why this never has been considered, not just to save in purchasing cost but it should also save in training and costs for spares.   
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RE: Dutch F-35s Go Into Storage

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:06 pm

Vote on the defence budget, I guess you are right Lifeliner  
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 48):
The F16 is still being produced, and with the latest electronics it should be fine for a country like the Netherlands. I never understood why this never has been considered, not just to save in purchasing cost but it should also save in training and costs for spares.

Yes, I think it's a sound alternative. It is difficult to explain, though, to replace aircraft with the same basic type after nearly 40 years. I'm afraid this is a serious obstacle.

Maybe we can have the Greek ones, which are much newer than ours. The Greeks owe us some money  
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