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N328KF
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777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:10 pm

How well would the 777F work as a bomber (gravity bombs held internally) or as a standoff missile launcher? It obviously has substantial payload available to it -- far more than even a B-52, and almost as much as a B-1B, purely from a weight standpoint.

This is purely hypothetical, and I know it's not realistic given the current needs and political environment. I am simply asking about this from a technical standpoint.
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tommy1808
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
This is purely hypothetical, and I know it's not realistic given the current needs and political environment. I am simply asking about this from a technical standpoint.

It would drag a lot on unnecessary hull around with it, but from a pure engineering point of view... why not.

Iirc the UK was looking into transport aircraft as a cruise missile platform before, but i can´t remember the name of the project for the life of me.. lol

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Stitch
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:54 pm

The USAF did look into the 747-200 as a platform for ALCM launches.

Boeing 747-200 ALCM Launch Vehicle
 
tommy1808
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
The USAF did look into the 747-200 as a platform for ALCM launches.

How many ALCM did it carry? 30? 54? Hard to judge from the image.

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ContinentalFan
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 3):
How many ALCM did it carry? 30? 54? Hard to judge from the image.

The common strategic rotary launcher (CSRL) used to launch ALCMs in the B-52, B-1, and B-2 had a capacity of 8 missiles. The picture shows 6 rotary launchers (not necessarily the CSRL), so figure around 48 (assuming CSRL was used and each held 8 ALCMs). In comparison, the B-52H has one CSRL internally and can carry another 12 ALCMs on wing pylons (for a total of 20), and the B-1B had 3 CSRLs internally (so 24 ALCMs).

However, one complication of that 747 design is that there seems to be only one place to dispense ALCMs, out the back (IOW there doesn't seem to be 6 sets of bomb bay doors for each rotary launcher). So there's got to be a system to shift the rotary launchers rearward, and probably to eject the empty launchers after their missiles were launched.

[Edited 2015-01-09 13:18:25]
 
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kanban
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:34 pm

personally I have a concern converting commercial planes into bombers.. (yes there is a contradiction in the P-8) but we've already seen one 777 shot down under the belief it was military.. and with trigger happy forces out there that event type would become all to common to the detriment of commercial aviation.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 5):
personally I have a concern converting commercial planes into bombers.. (yes there is a contradiction in the P-8) but we've already seen one 777 shot down under the belief it was military.. and with trigger happy forces out there that event type would become all to common to the detriment of commercial aviation.

True. But I ask this with a curious tone not condescending, how many 707's have been shot down?
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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ssteve
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 1):
It would drag a lot on unnecessary hull around with it, but from a pure engineering point of view... why not.

Yeah, on thing that astonished me was that the B-52 cross-section is basically a tall narrowbody. You want a huge wing and a small body.
 
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kanban
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:33 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
True. But I ask this with a curious tone not condescending, how many 707's have been shot down?

we weren't dealing with illiterate fundamentalist terrorists back then.. and yes we have had commercial planes blown up in flight, once we did it, twice now the Russians.. and those are the civilized participants.
 
rwessel
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 7):
Yeah, on thing that astonished me was that the B-52 cross-section is basically a tall narrowbody. You want a huge wing and a small body.

If you're hauling around cruise missiles, those are rather bulky for their weight (at least compared to more conventional bombs). An AGM-86, for example, is 21ft long, a couple of feet wide and three feet high (wings and fins folded), and weighs only 3150lbs. You'd clearly not be able to pack then as densely as their dimensions suggest, and so you'd not actually be that far off from normal air-freight cargo densities. A 777F can carry a nominal 112t of cargo, that would net you some 53 AGM-86s assuming you needed an additional 33% mass for the equipment for storing and moving the cruise missiles. Assuming that the net space required is 276 cubic feet per missile (a 23x3x4ft box), that's 80% of the main deck cargo volume of a 777F. Practically, the storage density should be a bit better, but the additional weight should be lower.

Compare that to a "real" bomb like the 2000lb Mk. 84, which is 11ft long and 18 inches in diameter.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:43 am

Depends on how much capability you want. If you want something like a B-52, B-1, B-2, Tu-95, etc. then you'll need to do some major work to build doors into the underside and reroute all the wiring and tubing that goes through that area. You'll also need to change the pressurization as the main body will now be unpressurized. Or you will restrict yourself to only stuff carried in what was the cargo area. Along the lines of what the P-8 does.

Now if you want something where you simply push out one smallish thing at a time then sure, as posted earlier the USAF and Boeing did do some initial investigation into turning the 747 into an ALCM truck where the ALCM was just pushed out the side and the rotary launchers were cycled around the fusalage in flight.

What I'd probably do is take the systems and avionics of a jetliner and build a new fusalage. This way you can get the COTS of jetliner stuff and avoid having to essentially reubild the fusalage by starting from scratch.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 8):
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):True. But I ask this with a curious tone not condescending, how many 707's have been shot down?
we weren't dealing with illiterate fundamentalist terrorists back then.. and yes we have had commercial planes blown up in flight, once we did it, twice now the Russians.. and those are the civilized participants.

Was actually remarking on the similarities between 707's and military versions of them to point out the possibilities then.

But you're right, times have changed.
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 8):
we weren't dealing with illiterate fundamentalist terrorists back then.. and yes we have had commercial planes blown up in flight, once we did it, twice now the Russians.. and those are the civilized participants.

Not to take from your point...but it is thrice now.
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N328KF
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 12):
Not to take from your point...but it is thrice now.

PA708
KE902
KE007
MH17

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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larshjort
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:04 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 13):
PA708
KE902
KE007
MH17

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more.

Going a little further back there was SE-BDY, a DC-6 which may or may not have been shot down in Congo in 1961.

/Lars
139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
 
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kanban
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:47 am

Pan Am 708 wasn't a shoot down..

so we have two Koreans, one Iranian, shot down by 'civilized' nations and one Malaysian shot down by either patriots or terrorists (same group depending one one's view)

Still in an era of shoot it down, it's only infidels and if a brother is on board it's martyrdom.. the less chance of confused identities based on silhouettes the better.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:54 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 14):

Plus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassi...Habyarimana_and_Cyprien_Ntaryamira - a shootdown, one of the proximal causes of the Rwandan Genocide.


David
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ssteve
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:14 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 9):
If you're hauling around cruise missiles, those are rather bulky for their weight (at least compared to more conventional bombs). An AGM-86, for example, is 21ft long, a couple of feet wide and three feet high (wings and fins folded), and weighs only 3150lbs. You'd clearly not be able to pack then as densely as their dimensions suggest, and so you'd not actually be that far off from normal air-freight cargo densities. A 777F can carry a nominal 112t of cargo, that would net you some 53 AGM-86s assuming you needed an additional 33% mass for the equipment for storing and moving the cruise missiles. Assuming that the net space required is 276 cubic feet per missile (a 23x3x4ft box), that's 80% of the main deck cargo volume of a 777F. Practically, the storage density should be a bit better, but the additional weight should be lower.

Is it better to drop these out a tail door than a traditional bomb bay, too?

Crazy to think of a "bomber" with the range of the 77F carrying 53 cruise missiles.
 
rwessel
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 17):
Is it better to drop these out a tail door than a traditional bomb bay, too?

I'm not sure there are many choices. You're not going to put the bay doors it under the wings as an many bombers, you'd end up completely redoing the wingbox and fuselage in that area, at which point you're dangerously near doing a new airplane.

And it's unlikely you'd want to have enough traditional bay doors for that many missiles. Those doors are a structural pain-in-the-posterior.

And you want the missile clearing the aircraft quickly too, something that's enhanced by an aft launch position (particularly given a missile which is slower than the aircraft it's launching from).

On the flip side, having the bomb bay that far aft is going to cause CG issues. Still, they put the bomb bay on the P-8 (admittedly rather smaller than what we're talking about here) pretty far aft (so as to avoid the wingbox area).

The "obvious" approach that comes to mind is some sort of conveyor system to bring individual or small groups of missiles to launch doors near the tail. With that many missiles you probably end up with some duplication (say two separate "tracks" back to the tail), both for reliability and launch rates (it would seriously reduce the utility of such an aircraft if it took an hour to pickle off all those missiles). And something reversible, since you need to load the things in the first place (and in a reasonable amount of time).
 
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bikerthai
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting ZaphodHarkonnen (Reply 10):
underside and reroute all the wiring and tubing

With the 777 being fly by wire, the re-routing would be easier to do than the 747 Dream lifter. The only major system that would be an issue would be the APU air duct.

Quoting ZaphodHarkonnen (Reply 10):
Or you will restrict yourself to only stuff carried in what was the cargo area. Along the lines of what the P-8 does.



Even the P-8 has a pressurized lower lobe. The only un-pressurized area is the bomb bay.

Seem like a more efficient bomb truck would use vertical/diagonal launch system. This would make it easier to get the bomb or missile through the main deck via drop tube. Then you can set up a couple of launch tubes.

Maybe someone can lay out what would be the largest bomb or missile you can stand (or lean) on the main deck of a 777F. If you can fit in a Tomahawk or a 1000 lb GBU (laser guide preferred otherwise GPS will do) with deployment tube then it would be very feasible.

bt
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FrmrKSEngr
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 15):
so we have two Koreans, one Iranian, shot down by 'civilized' nations and one Malaysian shot down by either patriots or terrorists (same group depending one one's view)

Don't forget the Israelis shooting down a Libyan 727 in 1973.

Below is a Wikipedia article on Airliner shoot downs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents
 
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kanban
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:42 am

Quoting FrmrKSEngr (Reply 20):
Don't forget the Israelis shooting down a Libyan 727 in 1973.

Thanks.. had forgotten that one...
 
warren84
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:00 pm

8Z, AA, AF, AK, AR, AT, AY, BA, CA, CI, DA, DP, FD, FV, GB, HU, IB, LB, LP, MH, MU, PA, QF, QR, SA, SQ, TP, TU, U2, US,
 
SXDFC
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:45 am

Could the Air Force even use a 747-8F as a potential transport?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 23):
Could the Air Force even use a 747-8F as a potential transport?

Yes. Current USAF cargo frames (C-5 / C-17) carry VIPs and troops.
 
BREECH
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Re: RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:00 pm

kanban wrote:
personally I have a concern converting commercial planes into bombers.. (yes there is a contradiction in the P-8) but we've already seen one 777 shot down under the belief it was military.. and with trigger happy forces out there that event type would become all to common to the detriment of commercial aviation.

That is a very bad example. It was not shot down because someone thought it was a military plane. Nobody was shooting at it. It was just in the path of a hunting missile. And what "trigger happy forces out there" are you... were you talking about? I just realized this thread is 3 years old.
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kanban
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:24 pm

the original reports that the Ukrainian separatists/Russians thought the MAS 777 was a military plane... yup a case of too much vodka
 
salttee
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Re: RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:49 pm

kanban wrote:
the original reports that the Ukrainian separatists/Russians thought the MAS 777 was a military plane... yup a case of too much vodka
Everything that came from the Russian side was lies. Please don't repeat Russian lies.
 
Jouhou
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Re: RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:14 am

salttee wrote:
kanban wrote:
the original reports that the Ukrainian separatists/Russians thought the MAS 777 was a military plane... yup a case of too much vodka
Everything that came from the Russian side was lies. Please don't repeat Russian lies.


I assumed he meant the russian side had too much vodka. Which is what I think happened. They didn't even know what they were firing at, they still didn't know upon inspection of the wreckage. *trigger alert for russian members, evil western propaganda incoming*

https://youtu.be/968-IPGKRiA
 
salttee
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:20 am

Who is "they"? The enlisted men who executed the operation or the higher ups who directed the TELLAR to park itself under the intersection of three civilian airways and find a target?

Look guy, this is Av/space, these types of discussion aren't supposed to take place here. But I will stand up and rebut misinformation re: MH-17 anywhere it shows up, anytime it shows up. I don't recall seeing the Jouhou handle in either of the two very long MH-17 threads that took place on a.net.

If you want to revise history, or poo poo the MH-17 tragedy, go to the non-av forum and start a thread.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:54 pm

Point is, the use of civilian air frame for military purpose may introduce a slight percentage of a mishap as in the noted examples. Even if there there were clear indication that the airline was civilian, there is still that slight chance of mishap (Korean Airline shoot down example). We have crossed over that bridge, now let's move on.


bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:27 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Point is, the use of civilian air frame for military purpose may introduce a slight percentage of a mishap as in the noted examples. Even if there there were clear indication that the airline was civilian, there is still that slight chance of mishap (Korean Airline shoot down example). We have crossed over that bridge, now let's move on.


bt


Technology can and always fail, either because of human error or the failure of the technology itself. The Korean Airline incident was human error, he was in visual contact with it and failed to correctly identify it as a civilian craft. The Iran Air shootdown was clearly a technological (in combination with human error) failure, it was wrongly identified as an Iranian Airforce F-14A on an attack profile.

I don't know if it really matters that much if it is a converted civilian B777 or a dedicated bomber, all is done on a beyond visual range, nowadays.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: RE: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:35 pm

Jouhou wrote:
salttee wrote:
kanban wrote:
the original reports that the Ukrainian separatists/Russians thought the MAS 777 was a military plane... yup a case of too much vodka
Everything that came from the Russian side was lies. Please don't repeat Russian lies.


I assumed he meant the russian side had too much vodka. Which is what I think happened. They didn't even know what they were firing at, they still didn't know upon inspection of the wreckage. *trigger alert for russian members, evil western propaganda incoming*

https://youtu.be/968-IPGKRiA



To be fair, the Russian propaganda: Su-25 claim, backed-up by the Russian government/military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuoIw3jBV4g
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jouhou
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:44 pm

salttee wrote:
Who is "they"? The enlisted men who executed the operation or the higher ups who directed the TELLAR to park itself under the intersection of three civilian airways and find a target?

Look guy, this is Av/space, these types of discussion aren't supposed to take place here. But I will stand up and rebut misinformation re: MH-17 anywhere it shows up, anytime it shows up. I don't recall seeing the Jouhou handle in either of the two very long MH-17 threads that took place on a.net.

If you want to revise history, or poo poo the MH-17 tragedy, go to the non-av forum and start a thread.


I'm not sure why you appear to be arguing with me when we agree? Also Ive been a lurker longer than I've been registered so yes, I was here lurking for the thread.
 
Jouhou
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:01 am

Anyways, to answer the original question: can it be done? Sure. Is it a good fit for the capabilities described? Noooooo. It's a giant, subsonic, unstealthy hulk that makes for a really easy target. The fact that the 777 was designed as fly by wire would require an uneconomical amount of redesign for a less than ideal airframe. The 767 makes a far better candidate for any kind of military repurposing in general. Fly by wire systems for military purposes have very different concerns and requirements compared to civilian systems.

If we we're talking as a long range bomber replacement for the b52 we'd have a very long list of reasons for why it's not an adequate replacement.

This is a 3 year old thread and I'm writing on a kindle instead of a keyboard, so I'm not going to bother going into a more technical and detailed breakdown of why it isn't a good fit- but I'm going to say the expense of converting civilian fly by wire controls to military would be a real deal breaker here. It's given me some food for thought- will more modern civilian aircraft see less military purpose life extensions than we've seen in the past?
 
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bikerthai
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:01 pm

Jouhou wrote:
so I'm not going to bother going into a more technical and detailed breakdown of why it isn't a good fit- but I'm going to say the expense of converting civilian fly by wire controls to military would be a real deal breaker here.


The 767 flight control have been harden for military use with the KC-46. The 747-8 flight control will be harden for military use with the PAR recap,
The design will have been done and paid for. So that would no longer be a deal breaker.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: 777F As A Missile Truck/bomber

Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:05 pm

Now, hardening the 777 would be require some up-front spending. However the flight control runs are relatively straight and shielding the bundle is a known process. They do it daily on the P-8A production line with all the system wiring.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

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