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Dutchy
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:35 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Wonder why EADS or other European companies never considered launching a design in this class. Its time EU cut the apron strings.


Too little demand for a specialized craft like that? I do remember some drawings but it never got anywhere.

Can't find a picture online.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:49 am

Dutchy wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Wonder why EADS or other European companies never considered launching a design in this class. Its time EU cut the apron strings.


Too little demand for a specialized craft like that? I do remember some drawings but it never got anywhere.

Can't find a picture online.


Talks were about a (?joint?) project:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Tra ... Helicopter
Image

von der Leyen as a dyed in the wool transatlantician
is busily lobbying for a range of "different" suppliers
for the Germany military. ( Mostly US based :-)

Just look how she was inserted into politics after a period
of reeducation in the US.

Hmm, to close:
the project is dead.
... and Airbus will not go for another Frankenstein Monster assembled but
meeting unending (and incompatible) wishes for changes.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Slug71
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:05 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BawliBooch wrote:
Wonder why EADS or other European companies never considered launching a design in this class. Its time EU cut the apron strings.


Too little demand for a specialized craft like that? I do remember some drawings but it never got anywhere.

Can't find a picture online.


Talks were about a (?joint?) project:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Tra ... Helicopter
Image

von der Leyen as a dyed in the wool transatlantician
is busily lobbying for a range of "different" suppliers
for the Germany military. ( Mostly US based :-)

Just look how she was inserted into politics after a period
of reeducation in the US.

Hmm, to close:
the project is dead.
... and Airbus will not go for another Frankenstein Monster assembled but
meeting unending (and incompatible) wishes for changes.


That actually looks pretty sweet!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:10 pm

Slug71 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Too little demand for a specialized craft like that? I do remember some drawings but it never got anywhere.

Can't find a picture online.


Talks were about a (?joint?) project:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Tra ... Helicopter
Image

von der Leyen as a dyed in the wool transatlantician
is busily lobbying for a range of "different" suppliers
for the Germany military. ( Mostly US based :-)

Just look how she was inserted into politics after a period
of reeducation in the US.

Hmm, to close:
the project is dead.
... and Airbus will not go for another Frankenstein Monster assembled but
meeting unending (and incompatible) wishes for changes.


That actually looks pretty sweet!


That's the one I meant, thanks for digging it up. And it looks like a pudding which has been in the sun way too long. :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Ozair
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Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:10 pm

WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
And yet amazingly France and Germany continue with plans for a joint C-130 squadron...


Not for tankering helos though.

IMU they want a C160 comparable platform for special forces insertion.

It is highly doubtful the French are ordering KC-130s for refuelling non rotary wing platforms...

France currently operates 14 C-130 aircraft (seven C-130H and seven C-130H-30 transporters) and has ordered an additional four aircraft (two C-130Js and two KC-130J tanker/transport).
 
WIederling
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Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:15 am

Ozair wrote:
It is highly doubtful the French are ordering KC-130s for refuelling non rotary wing platforms...


Reading to the end of my post:

IMU they want a C160 comparable platform for special forces insertion.

At least that is what was offered in the news here on the _joint_ project.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:43 am

WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
It is highly doubtful the French are ordering KC-130s for refuelling non rotary wing platforms...


Reading to the end of my post:

IMU they want a C160 comparable platform for special forces insertion.

At least that is what was offered in the news here on the _joint_ project.

And the above has what to do with your claim that they won't be refuelling helos?

Clearly the KC-130 has been acquired to address that specific issue. Given it is a joint squadron both Germany and France have the opportunity to benefit from that capability.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4664
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:07 pm

I did not claim they would never refuel heloes.

specifically bought for just refueling != used for refueling ( 2 items of a bunch of frames ).

My claim was that the purchase case is based a limited C160 size requirement for ....
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
I did not claim they would never refuel heloes.

You said

WIederling wrote:
Not for tankering helos though.


Perhaps if you had done a little bit of research you would have realised France was also buying KC-130s before making your claim.

WIederling wrote:
specifically bought for just refueling != used for refueling ( 2 items of a bunch of frames ).

I'll give you a tip, if you don't need to AAR you don't buy a KC-130.

WIederling wrote:
My claim was that the purchase case is based a limited C160 size requirement for ....

Sure and I agree that most of the order will go that way and that is the primary intent of the purchase but AAR of rotary wing aircraft was also a major consideration for the French acquisition.

The two variants will complement France’s C-160R Transall and Lockheed C-130H Hercules aircraft, and are being rapidly acquired to support aerial refuelling of its rotorcraft fleet, a mission unable to be performed by its new Airbus Defence & Space A400M.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/french-government-confirms-c-130j-buy-421606/
 
CX747
Posts: 5869
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:02 pm

WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Perhaps we will see a KC-130 purchase from the Germans similar to the French to overcome the A-400M rotary refuelling issues?


they are hosing the problem:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ll-426543/[/quotes]

Seems like Airbus got "hosed" as 5-6 months after the "Don't worry we are fixing the A400" article was published, the C-130J order went forward with 50% of the order focused on filling the tanker mission. The entire C-130 French-German squadron is a huge embarrassment and black eye for Airbus and credibility in the Defense market.

Any updates on the German CH-53 vs CH-47 competition?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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N328KF
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:07 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Wonder why EADS or other European companies never considered launching a design in this class. Its time EU cut the apron strings.


1. Why do they need to cut the apron strings? Are you bringing politics into the?
2. This is a niche class. There are only two players that can justify development: The US and Russia. China may join that list at some point. Organic European requirements are too small -- they'd have to be able to sell to the US or Russia to justify.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:27 am

N328KF wrote:
2. This is a niche class. There are only two players that can justify development: The US and Russia. China may join that list at some point. Organic European requirements are too small -- they'd have to be able to sell to the US or Russia to justify.


Why? The problem is that there is no EU army, so all requirements are mixed. But there must be a pool of at least 200 craft in the EU for this size. If that is enough, I don't know, but Russia doesn't need more than that I guess.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
N328KF wrote:
2. This is a niche class. There are only two players that can justify development: The US and Russia. China may join that list at some point. Organic European requirements are too small -- they'd have to be able to sell to the US or Russia to justify.


Why? The problem is that there is no EU army, so all requirements are mixed. But there must be a pool of at least 200 craft in the EU for this size. If that is enough, I don't know, but Russia doesn't need more than that I guess.


I count around 240 CH-47s or CH-53s currently in service or on order with EU air forces, but that includes Brexitania. It doesn't take into account future potential operators such as Poland and France, and all the export orders that will likely follow. With Airbus Helicopters history, it would only be a matter of time before you would see US Army versions rolling out of the Airbus factory in Columbus, Mississippi.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:14 pm

So that is a potential order for 300 a/c. So why didn't Airbus go for it? Now it is too late.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bigjku
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So that is a potential order for 300 a/c. So why didn't Airbus go for it? Now it is too late.


I would think a huge part of the problem would be developing an appropriate engine for a heavy lift helicopter. I don't see anything they can use. The US operates 3 engines you can use in the right power band for the V-22, CH-53 and CH-47 respectively.

The Merlin uses a three pack of motors that are more in the medium helicopter class to be bigger. The CH-47 uses two engines and lifts substantially more. The CH-53 uses three and lifts a lot more.

Europe could either develop an engine, which is expensive, go to a 4 pack design which would be complicated or try to buy off the US. Maybe the US would sell maybe they won't. The only other alternative I see would be to rework the A400m engines to do the job but they have issues already and may or may not be designed as helicopter engines. Who knows how much rework that might take.

So that is my guess. They don't want to foot the bill for an airframe and an engine. The US has pretty much constantly been dumping money into helicopter engines for decades. Among the three references you have two relatively new engines and a derivative of a decades old engine.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:44 pm

Perhaps you are right, I don't know much about engines I must confess. But why wouldn't the PW or GE or someone else sell an engine? A sell is a sell. The Saab Gripen uses an American engine after all. Or RR could just develop an engine for it, or someone else. The problem with the A400M's Europrop TP400-D6 engines is political, they wanted too many companies involved. Airbus wanted the Pratt & Whitney PW180. Hopefully, they have learned their lesson, ah well we can dream right.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bigjku
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 pm

The US government owns the engines because they paid for the R&D so they will sell what they think benefits them.

They sold an engine for Gripen because the plane itself isn't a threat to US planes on the export market for the most part and the engine they sold wasn't cutting edge when it was sold.

In the case of a proposed heavy lift helicopter selling the engine would enable the program. Not selling it likely ensures they have to buy from you which deives down your acquisition and ongoing cost by driving up fleet size. Like I said they might or might not. But GE or Pratt don't get to make that call. Even RR who makes the Osprey engine can't turn around and sell it without permission or reuse the tech from it on a derivative.

I am not sure what would happen here but I suspect the answer never got to this point. The R&D for the CH-53k was around $7 billion and that was with an engine that was derived from the losing V-22 proposal and an existing airframe (heavily modified). So we can figure your cost are at minimum probably that to build something in this category.

I don't think it realistically fits into the budgets of any one European power to do it. Most are already sunk into CH-47 anyway so you may not get a broad signup for it. My guess is unit cost would quickly be established as unreasonable, presuming anyone bothered to make a guess at it.
 
mffoda
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Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
And yet amazingly France and Germany continue with plans for a joint C-130 squadron...


Not for tankering helos though.

IMU they want a C160 comparable platform for special forces insertion.



The extended hose is a very poor substitute. While it may help the A400M prop wash issue somewhat, it makes the sometimes turbulent air conditions (wind conditions at normal refuel altitudes) even worse... I've been on several MH-53J and MH-47's missions that couldn't make contact with the refueling drogue because of excessive drogue movement. The longer hose will make that worse...

As for the C-160, It is damn close to the MC-130 in size... The later having ALL the Special Operations gear that anyone could hope for! And its already developed and combat proven to boot!...
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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Slug71
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Re: RE: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:31 pm

mffoda wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
And yet amazingly France and Germany continue with plans for a joint C-130 squadron...


Not for tankering helos though.

IMU they want a C160 comparable platform for special forces insertion.



The extended hose is a very poor substitute. While it may help the A400M prop wash issue somewhat, it makes the sometimes turbulent air conditions (wind conditions at normal refuel altitudes) even worse... I've been on several MH-53J and MH-47's missions that couldn't make contact with the refueling drogue because of excessive drogue movement. The longer hose will make that worse...

As for the C-160, It is damn close to the MC-130 in size... The later having ALL the Special Operations gear that anyone could hope for! And its already developed and combat proven to boot!...


It's been stated that the hose will likely be stiffer and have a narrower diameter to fit in the pod.

"Morrell says the company will be testing a stiffer hose design than used previously, and that this will also have to be narrower in diameter, in order to fit within the same Cobham pod design. This will result in a slower fuel flow, although Airbus has yet to determine its exact effect on overall refuelling time."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ll-426543/

That was mentioned over a year ago though. A different solution might have been found since then.
 
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N328KF
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:28 am

bigjku wrote:
The R&D for the CH-53k was around $7 billion and that was with an engine that was derived from the losing V-22 proposal and an existing airframe (heavily modified). So we can figure your cost are at minimum probably that to build something in this category.


Let's be honest here. The CH-53K is a totally new aircraft that happens to look like and is dimensionally similar to its predecessor, with which it shares a designation. It's been done before (F/A-18, F8U, etc.)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
bigjku
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:41 am

N328KF wrote:
bigjku wrote:
The R&D for the CH-53k was around $7 billion and that was with an engine that was derived from the losing V-22 proposal and an existing airframe (heavily modified). So we can figure your cost are at minimum probably that to build something in this category.


Let's be honest here. The CH-53K is a totally new aircraft that happens to look like and is dimensionally similar to its predecessor, with which it shares a designation. It's been done before (F/A-18, F8U, etc.)


Yeah pretty much. That's why I said the cost for that is about the minimum. A few things and lessons learned from a very heavy three engine helicopter can be brought over. The engines had already been developed to a degree.

I would say if you didn't have the engines on hand you would be looking at 9-10 billion probably. But yes the whole idea it's a modification is a lie.
 
vr773
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Re: Germany To Choose Between Chinook And CH-53K

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:16 am

Boeing signed 5 year contract with with German Aerospace supplier Aircraft Philipp GmbH:
http://www.mwrf.com/defense/boeing-cont ... nook-parts

This addition to Boeings list of German suppliers has likely happened in attempt to position the CH-47 for the tender to replace the Luftwaffe's old CH-53.

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