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Mortyman
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Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:33 pm

One week old !

First New helicopter receaved just a week ago

Not a good start for AW101 in Norway, AW101 0268 has just rolled outside the hangar at Sola outside Stavanger. The accident happened in connection with ground testing, the engines and the rotors were running when the accident occured.The helicopter has suffered significant damage, fortunately this happened without any of the crew being injured.

https://www.aftenbladet.no/lokalt/i/qnp ... adene-gikk
 
WIederling
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:23 pm

That'll buff right out.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:51 pm

WIederling wrote:
That'll buff right out.


Damage to the rotor

How could this happen ? The helicopter was on ground, taxiing ... Just Incredible !

It's gonna be interesting to hear what the accident report says
 
WIederling
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:35 pm

Mortyman wrote:
WIederling wrote:
That'll buff right out.


Damage to the rotor

How could this happen ? The helicopter was on ground, taxiing ... Just Incredible !

It's gonna be interesting to hear what the accident report says


Boss, I had an accident with the truck. But the left mirror is still intact.

what about the right one?

Can't say, still under the truck.

:-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:13 pm

Mortyman wrote:
WIederling wrote:
That'll buff right out.


Damage to the rotor

How could this happen ? The helicopter was on ground, taxiing ... Just Incredible !

It's gonna be interesting to hear what the accident report says


Really weird accident. The spinning rotor provides stability... how does it tip over like that? Massive wind gust? Damaged rotor causing imbalance?

Glad that nobody were hurt. The crew are really well trained and should be top notch. Will be interesting to find out what caused this.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:21 pm

What, more exactly, is the damage? Rotors.... and what else?
 
SeaKing4
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:41 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
What, more exactly, is the damage? Rotors.... and what else?


All engines, all the transmission including all gearboxes, - all will be removed because of shock loading - airframe plus more. It’s lying on its side relatively intact, however all the main rotor blades are gone. I have 3 photos. Will try to upload them later.
 
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par13del
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:53 pm

Well gives more meaning to HARD RIGHT......
 
salttee
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:02 pm

I know it's an expensive option, but I always figured that as long as you're buying a brand new helicopter, you might as well get the factory auto-pilot.
That bunji cord work around has some serious drawbacks.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:21 pm

Image

Image

Image

Photos Jarle Aasland
 
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breiz
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:34 am

Considering that the undercarriage has not collapsed or been retracted by mistake, and that there was no gale side wind at the time, one can only speculate about a faulty pilot's command inducing lift and bank. It seems.
A helicopter, particularly of that size and weight, does not simply tip-over on its own.
 
Andre3K
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:11 pm

JetBuddy wrote:

Really weird accident. The spinning rotor provides stability... how does it tip over like that? Massive wind gust? Damaged rotor causing imbalance?

Glad that nobody were hurt. The crew are really well trained and should be top notch. Will be interesting to find out what caused this.



Dynamic Rollover will most likely be the culprit. Just a guess though.

Per wiki:

A helicopter is susceptible to a rolling tendency, called dynamic rollover, when close to the ground, especially when taking off or landing. For dynamic rollover to occur, some factor has to first cause the helicopter to roll or pivot around a skid, or landing gear wheel, until its critical rollover angle is reached. Then, beyond this point, main rotor thrust continues the roll and recovery is impossible. If the critical rollover angle is exceeded, the helicopter rolls on its side regardless of the cyclic control corrections made.
 
SeaKing4
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:54 pm

breiz wrote:
Considering that the undercarriage has not collapsed or been retracted by mistake, and that there was no gale side wind at the time, one can only speculate about a faulty pilot's command inducing lift and bank. It seems.
A helicopter, particularly of that size and weight, does not simply tip-over on its own.


You are simply speculating about something none of us know the answer too. I know people are entitled to an opinion, but I would rather people don’t speculate. Please wait for the accident report.
 
SeaKing4
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:56 pm

Andre3K wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Really weird accident. The spinning rotor provides stability... how does it tip over like that? Massive wind gust? Damaged rotor causing imbalance?

Glad that nobody were hurt. The crew are really well trained and should be top notch. Will be interesting to find out what caused this.



Dynamic Rollover will most likely be the culprit. Just a guess though.

Per wiki:

A helicopter is susceptible to a rolling tendency, called dynamic rollover, when close to the ground, especially when taking off or landing. For dynamic rollover to occur, some factor has to first cause the helicopter to roll or pivot around a skid, or landing gear wheel, until its critical rollover angle is reached. Then, beyond this point, main rotor thrust continues the roll and recovery is impossible. If the critical rollover angle is exceeded, the helicopter rolls on its side regardless of the cyclic control corrections made.


As this happened during an engaged ground run, dynamic rollover will not be the culprit, unless collective input occurred and the helicopter started to lift off. However I have my doubts.
 
SeaKing4
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:34 pm

Andre3K wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Really weird accident. The spinning rotor provides stability... how does it tip over like that? Massive wind gust? Damaged rotor causing imbalance?

Glad that nobody were hurt. The crew are really well trained and should be top notch. Will be interesting to find out what caused this.



Dynamic Rollover will most likely be the culprit. Just a guess though.

Per wiki:

A helicopter is susceptible to a rolling tendency, called dynamic rollover, when close to the ground, especially when taking off or landing. For dynamic rollover to occur, some factor has to first cause the helicopter to roll or pivot around a skid, or landing gear wheel, until its critical rollover angle is reached. Then, beyond this point, main rotor thrust continues the roll and recovery is impossible. If the critical rollover angle is exceeded, the helicopter rolls on its side regardless of the cyclic control corrections made.


As this happened during an engaged ground run, dynamic rollover will not be the culprit, unless collective input occurred and the helicopter started to lift off which I would say was highly unsightly. However I have seen a Seaking engage it’s rotors with AFCS selected & this resulted in all 5 main rotor blades hitting the tarmac. A change of pants was needed for all ground crew.
 
SeaKing4
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:39 pm

Can a Mod please delete post No. 15 & this post please. TY
 
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Tugger
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:41 pm

SeaKing4 wrote:
As this happened during an engaged ground run, dynamic rollover will not be the culprit, unless collective input occurred and the helicopter started to lift off which I would say was highly unsightly. However I have seen a Seaking engage it’s rotors with AFCS selected & this resulted in all 5 main rotor blades hitting the tarmac. A change of pants was needed for all ground crew.

"Engaged ground run"? "AFCS"?

Can you define or explain these terms better, I am not very fluent in rotorcraft terminology.
Thanks.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:04 am

Tugger wrote:
"Engaged ground run"? "AFCS"?

Can you define or explain these terms better, I am not very fluent in rotorcraft terminology.
Thanks.

Tugg

AFCS = Automatic Flight Control System.

In some ways it does the same thing as a fixed wing autopilot.

But due to gyro forces and other strange asymmetric dynamics on a chopper it is in many ways a much more complicated thing.

If you force me to jump to conclusions, then faulty crew programming of the AFCS will be high on my list.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:32 am

Mortyman wrote:
How could this happen ? The helicopter was on ground, taxiing ... Just Incredible !

Nah, it was doing a "ground run".

A ground run will normally be a stationary run. Possibly testing rotor balance, vibrations, or blade tracking, blade tracking at different lift settings or angle of attack, possibly also blade tracking with various lateral or pitch control inputs, or other such things.

It fits the fact that only the two flight crew members were on board. While four people (mechanics?) were around outside, possibly operating high speed cameras and other instruments to monitor the rotor dynamics.

Of course a chopper is also "running on the ground" while taxiing by own power, but any competent source would call that "taxiing", not "ground run".

Should this turn out to be a crew error, then repair costs will be subtracted from their salaries. They will be debt free in about ten thousand years.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:54 am

Kiwirob wrote:
I guess this one becomes the spare parts frame. Like one of the 5 frigates.

I actually see this as repairable. The main rotor, blades, and maybe the transmission are probably the main parts to fix or replace. The rest of the structure will need inspection and repair/replacement as needed. I've personally seen helicopters banged up even worst that were repaired in the end.
 
SeaKing4
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:20 am

Tugger wrote:
SeaKing4 wrote:
As this happened during an engaged ground run, dynamic rollover will not be the culprit, unless collective input occurred and the helicopter started to lift off which I would say was highly unsightly. However I have seen a Seaking engage it’s rotors with AFCS selected & this resulted in all 5 main rotor blades hitting the tarmac. A change of pants was needed for all ground crew.

"Engaged ground run"? "AFCS"?

Can you define or explain these terms better, I am not very fluent in rotorcraft terminology.
Thanks.

Tugg


Engaged ground run - Engines running & rotor turning.
AFCS - automatic flight control system.
 
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breiz
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:40 pm

breiz wrote:
Considering that the undercarriage has not collapsed or been retracted by mistake, and that there was no gale side wind at the time, one can only speculate about a faulty pilot's command inducing lift and bank. It seems.
A helicopter, particularly of that size and weight, does not simply tip-over on its own.

SeaKing4 wrote:
You are simply speculating about something none of us know the answer too. I know people are entitled to an opinion, but I would rather people don’t speculate. Please wait for the accident report.

SeaKing4 wrote:
As this happened during an engaged ground run, dynamic rollover will not be the culprit, unless collective input occurred and the helicopter started to lift off. However I have my doubts.

SeaKing4 wrote:
As this happened during an engaged ground run, dynamic rollover will not be the culprit, unless collective input occurred and the helicopter started to lift off which I would say was highly unsightly. However I have seen a Seaking engage it’s rotors with AFCS selected & this resulted in all 5 main rotor blades hitting the tarmac. A change of pants was needed for all ground crew.


Now, who's speculating :wink2:
It looks we are in accordance in our speculations
 
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breiz
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:24 pm

Other AW101 roll over accidents:

2014.10.12 : One of Denmark’s AgustaWestland AW101 transport helicopters has been damaged in a landing incident in Afghanistan, the nation’s defence ministry has confirmed.
An aircraft operating from Mazar-e-Sharif air base ended up on its side after a landing incident away from the site, the defence ministry said in a 12 October statement. The crew and personnel aboard the aircraft escaped without suffering serious injury, but the aircraft was seriously damaged, it adds.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ap-404684/

2016.11.23: One of the Nigerian Air Force’s two recently acquired AW101 helicopters has been damaged in an incident that saw the aircraft roll over on the ground.
The accident happened at Nigerian Air Force Base Makurdi on 23 November. Reports indicate the incident happened after the aircraft had landed. A flight engineer was apparently taxiing the aircraft to a hangar when it lifted up and rolled over onto its side.
The flight engineer, who was apparently the only crewmember still on board, suffered minor injuries while the AW101’s rotors were destroyed and it suffered other major damage.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... elicopters
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:09 am

breiz wrote:
Other AW101 roll over accidents:

2014.10.12 : One of Denmark’s AgustaWestland AW101 transport helicopters has been damaged in a landing incident in Afghanistan, the nation’s defence ministry has confirmed.
An aircraft operating from Mazar-e-Sharif air base ended up on its side after a landing incident away from the site, the defence ministry said in a 12 October statement. The crew and personnel aboard the aircraft escaped without suffering serious injury, but the aircraft was seriously damaged, it adds.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ap-404684/

This accident cannot be blamed on the helicopter. It was "biomechanical feedback".

They were practicing fast troop delivery/pickup in the field at night in total darkness using night vision goggles only. They landed on what was believed to be decently flat land, but they hit deep tracks from tanks or other heavy vehicles.

They couldn't see the tracks due to dust from the rotor blast. The bounces were so violent that the flying pilot couldn't hold his left arm steady on the collective control, and their night vision goggles fell off. Without the goggles they failed to stabilize the helicopter because they couldn't read the instruments.

The helicopter was rebuilt at the factory. Repair cost was DKK 119 million or just under US$ 20 million. This is how it looked before the repair...
https://bdk.bmcdn.dk/media/cache/resolv ... 01jpg.jpeg

The recommendations in the accident report were:
1. Better fixing of night vision goggles for the flight crews.
2. More careful preparations for "dust landings".
3. Eventual updates to emergency cockpit lighting.
4. Intensified information exchange of operating experiences among all AW101 operators in the world.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
WIederling
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:48 am

prebennorholm wrote:
The recommendations in the accident report were:
1. Better fixing of night vision goggles for the flight crews.
2. More careful preparations for "dust landings".
3. Eventual updates to emergency cockpit lighting.
4. Intensified information exchange of operating experiences among all AW101 operators in the world.


Universal good advice.

see also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Berl ... pter_crash
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:08 pm

It is specualted here in Norway that the helicopter may have a design flaw and need a change in design. It is mentioned that the Wheels should perhaps be placed differently for better stability...
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:49 am

Mortyman wrote:
It is specualted here in Norway that the helicopter may have a design flaw and need a change in design. It is mentioned that the Wheels should perhaps be placed differently for better stability...


On the side?

:duck:
 
WIederling
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:56 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
:duck:

On its back. the rotor blades stabilise the attitude.

reminds me:
what to you do about a DIL style integrated circuit that balks at working as desired and designed?
You turn it over and bend all its legs hard over so it can't fight back. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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breiz
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:16 pm

While the accident investigation team is at work, a member of the Norwegian parliament (Jenny Klinge, deputy head of justice committee) asked the government if it had or would considered cancelling the order altogether, Question based on the potential risk for crews for a long period before the accident report is issued.
The minister of justice answered that there was no such plan, that deliveries will go on as planned, unless the manufacturer decides otherwise.
Looks like a move to avoid any contractual penalty.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:11 am

breiz wrote:
Looks like a move to avoid any contractual penalty.


Or like a sensible decision to proceed with a planned and well thought through purchase of equipment. I am no fan of advocating cancelling the equipment just because it hasn't been operated properly.

A reasonable question would be, how do I know it wasn't operated properly. Well, AW101 aren't falling on their sides left and right. Might there be an improvement of design possible? Maybe, the accident report will surely hint to that. Is the design inherently flawed? Sure not, or other militaries would use the helicopter in actual battlefield operation.

It is always just too easy of a reaction to blame the equipment. Like giving your tennis rack a mad look after you've catapulted the ball into the net. ;)
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:39 am

So do the Norwegians actually want to operate a helicopter? Given the recent rumors that the NH90 order might be canceled and now some politicians want to cancel the AW101.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Egerton
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Re: Not a good start for AW101 in Norway

Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pm

I know that years ago the British Army Air Corps had Saunders Roe Skeeter helicopters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saunders-Roe_Skeeter They were small 2 seat jobs with a Gypsy piston engine, which was engaged by a long clutch handle which in a car application was pulled on a ratchet up from the floor as a hand brake. The landing gear was 3 small wheels from the small fuselage, thus of a small diameter. The rotor on the other hand was of a large diameter. If this pulling of the clutch handle was done too quickly and the ground surface was slippery perhaps concrete which has iced over, the rotor blades remained stationary while the rest of the Skeeter rotated.

This may have happened in Norway in winter, the ground looked slippery in the photos.

With a Skeeter, I guess that would roll over if the clutch was not instantly released? This might have been not caught quickly enough because the pilot would be thrown about a fair bit even with his 5 way harness tight? And as a brake handle on a car was often difficult to disengage

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