Ozair
Posts: 2360
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:00 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.


It's a pool of training Aircraft wich includes training Aircraft from every nation I beleave.

That is correct. It is a pooled arrangement as per below.

As the world’s premier conventional F-35 training base, Luke is currently training pilots and instructors for the USA, Australia, Norway, Italy – and soon F-35 foreign military sales customers Japan and Israel. Other programme partners – the Netherlands, Turkey and possibly Denmark and Canada – will also join the pooling arrangement, where they share aircraft and instructors.

Luke will grow to six F-35 training squadrons, and will soon reactivate its third unit – the 63rd Fighter Squadron, which trained F-16C/D pilots until it disbanded in 2009.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-420797/

Nicoeddf wrote:
So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

It is primarily all about airspace. Luke AFB is located next to the following,

An integral part of Luke's F-16 fighter pilot training mission is the Barry M. Goldwater Air Force Range. The range consists of 1,900,000 acres (7,700 km2) of relatively undisturbed Sonoran Desert southwest of Luke Air Force Base between Yuma and Tucson south of Interstate 8. Overhead are 57,000 cubic miles (240,000 km3) of airspace where pilots practice air-to-air maneuvers and engage simulated battlefield targets on the ground. Roughly the size of Connecticut, the immense size of the complex allows for simultaneous training activities on nine air-to-ground and two air-to-air ranges. The Luke Air Force Base Range Management Office manages the eastern range activities and Marine Corps Air Station Yuma oversees operations on the western portion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Air_Force_Base
 
CX747
Posts: 5957
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:17 am

VSMUT wrote:
CX747 wrote:
WHO is complaining about having jets at Luke AFB to train with?


Err, the taxpayers who are paying for the aircraft to defend the country and its interests? Upwards of a third of the fleet will be stuck 9000 km away from where they are needed.




Several things wrong here.

1: Taxpayers aren't upset....You are upset.....about everything F-35.
2: The aircraft aren't stuck.
3: The aircraft are actually where they are NEEDED, which is in a fabulous training location.

Good luck to all the incoming B course guys.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:32 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
By the way, and maybe a totally naive question: Why isn't a multinational training squadron established, where you basically pay per hour of aircraft and instructor use. I know, simplified, but you get the idea.

Wouldn't that help to increase training efficiency and increase forward availablity of A/C where they are really needed?


There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.
 
JJJ
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:17 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 2948
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:35 am

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:24 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


Not sure why the tone has to be so condescending. But maybe it only comes across that way *shrug*

However, in my quest for knowledge, I am not criticising the Danes for training in the US, I am aware of the advantages, so no need to defend that portion. I'd rather wanted to know if it wouldn't be beneficial for everybody to uphold a dedicated training fleet of F35 for mulitnational use, rather than keeping 1/5th of the operating fleet overseas.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
JJJ
Posts: 2725
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:42 am

ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.
 
Ozair
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:43 pm

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

This really is a storm in a teacup. From information stated by the Danish Ministry of Defence it appears that a vast majority or even all of the fleet will be based in Denmark.

As for the need for any jets to be stationed permanently in the US, there are numerous benefits if they do including the already mentioned joint training pool at Luke AFB for F-35 operators. To train aircrew at Luke Denmark will obviously have to contribute something and they may see some aircraft stationed there as a viable solution. If things hot up in Europe and Denmark wanted to recall their jets there would likely be a procession of fighter aircraft crossing the Atlantic and Danish jets would have no problem adding to the group. Given Denmark are expecting to contribute only 4-6 jets to any international Coalition having two or five or even seven in the US training Danish pilots until required seems reasonable.

Additionally, when participating in joint exercises Danish jets will not have to make a journey over the pond but can use jets stationed in country. I also doubt that Spain and other European Air Force ranges will allow F-35 operators to exercise their jets to the full extent due to security restrictions, something that will be possible in the US at Nellis and other locations.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:19 pm

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

Such as whom?

The Dutch and Norwegians conduct their pilot training in the US as well.
The British will be operating the F-35B, so their experience won't work.
The Italians do conduct some pilot training in Italy, but they also send pilots to the US for training as well.

So, whom are the Danes going to partner with? Who are the Danes going to partner with that can offer the whole spectrum of training with the fidelity and quality that can be provided in the US?
 
JJJ
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:39 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

Such as whom?

The Dutch and Norwegians conduct their pilot training in the US as well.
The British will be operating the F-35B, so their experience won't work.
The Italians do conduct some pilot training in Italy, but they also send pilots to the US for training as well.

So, whom are the Danes going to partner with? Who are the Danes going to partner with that can offer the whole spectrum of training with the fidelity and quality that can be provided in the US?


It's up to them. They should have decided that before finding out that permanently stationing 1/5 of their a/c across the Atlantic was an issue.

With +300 airframes in Europe (I'm counting the Turks in) you should be able to make a decent joint training fleet.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:48 pm

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

Such as whom?

The Dutch and Norwegians conduct their pilot training in the US as well.
The British will be operating the F-35B, so their experience won't work.
The Italians do conduct some pilot training in Italy, but they also send pilots to the US for training as well.

So, whom are the Danes going to partner with? Who are the Danes going to partner with that can offer the whole spectrum of training with the fidelity and quality that can be provided in the US?


It's up to them. They should have decided that before finding out that permanently stationing 1/5 of their a/c across the Atlantic was an issue.

With +300 airframes in Europe (I'm counting the Turks in) you should be able to make a decent joint training fleet.


There are way more F-16's in Europe and they never did something like that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
CX747
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:13 am

The overall reality is training for the F-35 is based out of Luke AFB in a similar fashion to F-16 training conducted over the past several decades. The infrastructure of Luke to include massive aerial ranges, remote fields and year round flying ability are unrivaled. Nearby bases provide the ability to train against F-15, F-16, F/A-18, A-10 and AV-8 aircraft. Let's not forget that the USAF and USN have a massive number of IPs with relevant/recent combat time and experience. Soak that up like a sponge. This in addition to the previously mentioned fact that Nellis AFB is a quick hop away and that base's training regimentation is emulated throughout the world and the picture is becoming clearer.

The F-35 shop is at Luke AFB and so is the best training money can buy. That is reality and why the Danes are there.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Ozair
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:14 am

Denmark is going through the financial work to acquire the F-35.

Denmark positions F-35 funds

The Danish Central Bank has completed the hedging of payments of USD3.7 billion so that the department of defence is able to acquire the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at fixed price in its local currency.

Copenhagen agreed in 2016 to acquire 27 conventional take-off and landing F-35A variants of the fighter to replace its incumbent F-16 fleet, and has hedged the dollars so that they are available at a fixed price when they are needed.

This process commenced at the beginning of 2018, the bank said, and has now been completed.

“The process of entering into forwards, which ensure a fixed price of dollars when the government needs them has been smooth,” Frank Nielsen, assistant governor of the bank, said.

http://www.janes.com/article/77999/denm ... f-35-funds
 
Ozair
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:30 am

Another sign the Danish acquisition of the F-35 is in trouble... ;)

Terma announces teaming for new F-35 avionics test centre

Terma and Scandinavian Avionics have teamed to form an avionics test centre in Denmark to offer support for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in Europe.

Avionics Test Center Denmark will combine the maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) experience of Scandinavian Avionics with the electronic and software experience of Terma to provide test and repair of the avionics on board the fighter.

“In order to provide best value to the F-35 programme, Terma and Scandinavian Avionics decided to team up to form Avionics Test Center Denmark,” Jens Maaløe, president and CEO of Terma, says.

“We both aim to enhance and grow our MRO capabilities towards the F-35 programme with specific focus on the test and repair of F-35 avionics.”

http://www.janes.com/article/78549/term ... est-centre
 
Ozair
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Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:44 am

No surprise given Boeing couldn't identify what documents they wanted access to.

Boeing loses case against Denmark over fighter jet deal

Boeing lost a lawsuit against Denmark on Friday which related to the Danish government's decision to buy Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II combat jets in preference to Boeing's F/A 18 Super Hornets.

Boeing had taken Denmark to court over a lack of access to documents used in the government's decision to buy the Lockheed Martin jets.

"The court has found that the authorities' decisions on refusal of access to the documents are legal and valid," Copenhagen's city court said in a summary of the verdict on its website on Friday.

Boeing said it was disappointed by the decision and would now review it and consider how to proceed.

After Denmark decided to buy 27 of Lockheed Martin's new warplanes in 2016, Boeing complained that the evaluation process for the planes competing for the order had been "flawed" and demanded access to the documents in the case.

"Boeing initiated this legal action to gain a better understanding of the evaluation process, in which we believe the Ministry made a number of critical errors and omissions in its evaluation," Boeing said in a statement on Friday.

Denmark's defense ministry had denied Boeing access because the U.S. company had not specified which documents it wanted to see, and that it would too large a task to find all documents since preparations for the order began in 2005.

http://kfgo.com/news/articles/2018/mar/ ... -purchase/

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