itchief
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V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:57 pm

Here is a link that has video of the first flight.

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-ne ... ing%20News
 
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Aesma
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:54 pm

A bit weird looking.

With this and the Osprey, if an engine separates (say, from an AA gun attack), can it still fly/glide, or would its equilibrium be too affected ?
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Tugger
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:11 pm

itchief wrote:
Here is a link that has video of the first flight.

Interesting that the blurred the view of the transmission/driveshaft sections.

Tugg
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mxaxai
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:23 pm

Aesma wrote:
A bit weird looking.

With this and the Osprey, if an engine separates (say, from an AA gun attack), can it still fly/glide, or would its equilibrium be too affected ?

If an engine separates or one side stops providing lift this thing is toast. Just like any helicopter whose rotor detaches. If they're smart, though, they'll have a link between the left and right rotor to avoid crashing due to a single engine failure.
 
Ozair
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:11 pm

mxaxai wrote:
If they're smart, though, they'll have a link between the left and right rotor to avoid crashing due to a single engine failure.

Agree, just like what is present on the V-22 and the CH-47.
 
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Tugger
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:25 am

mxaxai wrote:
If they're smart, though, they'll have a link between the left and right rotor to avoid crashing due to a single engine failure.

Yes, they are cross linked. It can operate on one engine.

Tugg
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keesje
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:59 am

Tugger wrote:
itchief wrote:
Here is a link that has video of the first flight.

Interesting that the blurred the view of the transmission/driveshaft sections.

Tugg


Yes indeed.

Apparently some telling views on key technology not to be shared.

But still important to show off it flies.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
zanl188
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:51 pm

Tugger wrote:
Interesting that the blurred the view of the transmission/driveshaft sections.

Tugg


Blurred on the ground run video as well:

https://youtu.be/dafw9bFOr1I

I'll go out on a limb here and speculate the transmission is electric & classified/proprietary as a result. :-)

But seriously, electric transmission would have advantages for survivability and flexibility of design. No cross shaft for one.
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dragon6172
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:01 pm

zanl188 wrote:

Blurred on the ground run video as well:

https://youtu.be/dafw9bFOr1I

I'll go out on a limb here and speculate the transmission is electric & classified/proprietary as a result. :-)

But seriously, electric transmission would have advantages for survivability and flexibility of design. No cross shaft for one.


Not really sure what you are thinking? No direct connections between engine and transmission? Highly unlikely in my opinion.
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JetBuddy
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:28 pm

I agree this thing is weird looking. It's like it's 75% engines/rotors/wings and 25% helicopter fuselage. Doesn't look efficient to me. But Bell knows better than me.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:45 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I agree this thing is weird looking. It's like it's 75% engines/rotors/wings and 25% helicopter fuselage. Doesn't look efficient to me. But Bell knows better than me.

50% of the traffic over my house is V-22 Osprey, so to my eyes it's quite normal.
What I would look for is a gearbox positioned as high as possible to allow the rotors to turn in forward mode without striking the ground when landing.
Either that or extra tall undercarriage like on a giraffe. A big weakness of the V-22 (IMO) is that even though it has a wing, it cannot land as a glider if it's engines fail. In fact it cannot land as a conventional aircraft with, or without engine power.

In contrast, an AV-8B can take-off and land as a regular aircraft, if there is a 6,000ft runway available.

(Ok, I admit I'm guessing that last bit - maybe the undercarriage isn't actually stressed for those types of operations - I confess I've never seen an AV-8 land in that manner)
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Ozair
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:39 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
In contrast, an AV-8B can take-off and land as a regular aircraft, if there is a 6,000ft runway available.

(Ok, I admit I'm guessing that last bit - maybe the undercarriage isn't actually stressed for those types of operations - I confess I've never seen an AV-8 land in that manner)

An AV-8 has no problem landing conventionally but I'm not sure why you made the comparison, the aircraft have very different mission sets.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:18 am

Ozair wrote:
An AV-8 has no problem landing conventionally but I'm not sure why you made the comparison, the aircraft have very different mission sets.

The similarities are that both types can take off and land vertically, and then transition to horizontal flight supported by wings. You are welcome to name other types that can do this too, but AFAIK it's only going to be a fairly short list. What missions they can accomplish was never part of my agenda.

The relevance of that particular similarity? I cannot believe that wasn't perfectly clear in my original post - but if you need me to repeat it.....

An AV-8 can land conventionally, which may be useful if it suffers an engine failure but can glide to a nearby runway. (However, it is possible that in all cases of engine failure, standard policy is to point the a/c out to sea and eject. I don't know.) It can also take-off from a conventional runway, and this allows a higher payload.

A V-22 Osprey suffering a (single?double?) engine failure in normal flight, cannot easily glide and land in a conventional way. If the (failed) engines are locked in normal (horizontal) flight mode, the huge diameter rotors will impact the runway long before the undercarriage reaches the tarmac. Alternatively, if after engine failure they can somehow rotate the engines (& rotors) into vertical flight mode, they avoid this scenario, but create huge drag. So for various reasons I suspect that the V-22 makes a very poor glider.

The V-280 could have the opportunity to put this right. For a start I get the impression it has a more useful wing. Secondly the engines remain horizontal, and only the driveshafts rotate out of alignment and create drag in forward (unpowered) flight. So, if for instance the undercarriage is particularly tall (like a giraffe), and the wing is mounted on a pedestal above the fuselage, maybe with significant dihedral, we might find that the rotors remain clear of the ground whilst in horizontal (normal flight) mode. This would enable conventional landings, either with or without power. However, all the pictures I have seen so far show this is not the case, and it would require re-designing. At this time I haven't seen actual rotor dimensions to know how close to possible this might be. I'm just postulating the idea.

How do you see the V-280 coping with a double engine failure? Could it auto-rotate to a safe landing like a normal helicopter? I have my doubts.
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itchief
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:14 am

The V-22 is a tiltrotor and does not rely on autorotation for a survivable power-out landing. The wide separation of the engines and the ability to drive both rotors with one engine make a power-out landing extremely unlikely. However, if required, the V-22 can glide for a predictable run-on landing in airplane mode, much like a turboprop
I've seen glide ratios of 2:1 and 4.5:1 quoted on the Internet, so it'll come down quite hard and destroy the rotors.

However, the design mitigates against this in various ways, or so the manufacturer claims. In the survivability section of the same handbook they say

V-22 crashworthiness is a function of design. Heavy components, such as the engines and transmissions, are located away from the cabin and cockpit area. The proprotors are designed to fray or “broomstraw” rather than splinter on impact with the ground. The energy-absorbing landing gear system is designed to attenuate most of the energy for hard landings up to 24 fps. The wing is constructed to fail outboard of the wing/fuselage attachment in a manner that absorbs kinetic energy and ensures the cabin area will not be crushed, thereby protecting the occupants. An anti-plow bulkhead prevents the nose from digging in on impact, and the fuselage provides a reinforced shell that is designed to maintain 85% of its volume during a crash. Aircrew and embarked troops receive additional protection from crashworthy seats that stroke vertically to absorb energy.
 
Ozair
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:21 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
The similarities are that both types can take off and land vertically, and then transition to horizontal flight supported by wings. You are welcome to name other types that can do this too, but AFAIK it's only going to be a fairly short list. What missions they can accomplish was never part of my agenda.

The relevance of that particular similarity? I cannot believe that wasn't perfectly clear in my original post - but if you need me to repeat it.....

An AV-8 can land conventionally, which may be useful if it suffers an engine failure but can glide to a nearby runway. (However, it is possible that in all cases of engine failure, standard policy is to point the a/c out to sea and eject. I don't know.) It can also take-off from a conventional runway, and this allows a higher payload.

A V-22 Osprey suffering a (single?double?) engine failure in normal flight, cannot easily glide and land in a conventional way. If the (failed) engines are locked in normal (horizontal) flight mode, the huge diameter rotors will impact the runway long before the undercarriage reaches the tarmac. Alternatively, if after engine failure they can somehow rotate the engines (& rotors) into vertical flight mode, they avoid this scenario, but create huge drag. So for various reasons I suspect that the V-22 makes a very poor glider.

The V-280 could have the opportunity to put this right. For a start I get the impression it has a more useful wing. Secondly the engines remain horizontal, and only the driveshafts rotate out of alignment and create drag in forward (unpowered) flight. So, if for instance the undercarriage is particularly tall (like a giraffe), and the wing is mounted on a pedestal above the fuselage, maybe with significant dihedral, we might find that the rotors remain clear of the ground whilst in horizontal (normal flight) mode. This would enable conventional landings, either with or without power. However, all the pictures I have seen so far show this is not the case, and it would require re-designing. At this time I haven't seen actual rotor dimensions to know how close to possible this might be. I'm just postulating the idea.

How do you see the V-280 coping with a double engine failure? Could it auto-rotate to a safe landing like a normal helicopter? I have my doubts.

Relax, I wasn't accusing you of anything, just interesting that you chose to compare a fighter jet with a troop transport.

As for how the V-280 will handle those situations, I expect it will behave the same way most rotary wing troop transport do and essentially drop. The aircraft's rotors are definitely too large to allow landing parallel to the wing. Below is a graphic but you get the idea.

Image

It also appears that the wing changes, and rotor not engine rotation, were undertaken to reduce complexity. It could have an unintended side effect of improving recovery but I doubt it.
“What Bell has done is taking its historical V-22 aircraft, and all the demonstrators before that, and applies them to this next-generation tilt-rotor. It is a straight wing versus a V-22 which is not straight. This reduces complexity,” Dan Bailey, JMR TD Program Manager, said in an interview with Scout Warrior last year. “They are also building additional flapping into the rotor system and individual controls that should allow for increased low-speed maneuverability.”

https://scout.com/military/warrior/Arti ... -101456597
 
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Spacepope
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:40 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I agree this thing is weird looking. It's like it's 75% engines/rotors/wings and 25% helicopter fuselage. Doesn't look efficient to me. But Bell knows better than me.

50% of the traffic over my house is V-22 Osprey, so to my eyes it's quite normal.
What I would look for is a gearbox positioned as high as possible to allow the rotors to turn in forward mode without striking the ground when landing.
Either that or extra tall undercarriage like on a giraffe. A big weakness of the V-22 (IMO) is that even though it has a wing, it cannot land as a glider if it's engines fail. In fact it cannot land as a conventional aircraft with, or without engine power.

In contrast, an AV-8B can take-off and land as a regular aircraft, if there is a 6,000ft runway available.

(Ok, I admit I'm guessing that last bit - maybe the undercarriage isn't actually stressed for those types of operations - I confess I've never seen an AV-8 land in that manner)

Although the props won't survive, the V-22 can make a normal straight ahead landing. Once.
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Max Q
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:35 am

Seems impressive, just too large to fit on some missions
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:35 am

Spacepope wrote:
Although the props won't survive, the V-22 can make a normal straight ahead landing. Once.

I am much obliged to itchief, Ozair, & Spacepope for enlightening me as to how to crash land a V-22 (& presumably the V-280 also)
If I ever get a ride in one, I shall feel a whole lot happier.
Thanks guys. :bigthumbsup:
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WIederling
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:25 pm

keesje wrote:
Tugger wrote:
itchief wrote:
Here is a link that has video of the first flight.

Interesting that the blurred the view of the transmission/driveshaft sections.

Apparently some telling views on key technology not to be shared.


Hiding where it is copied from :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Achgelis_Fa_269 ( ok same but inverted.
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zanl188
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:52 pm

dragon6172 wrote:

Not really sure what you are thinking? No direct connections between engine and transmission? Highly unlikely in my opinion.


Although I believe it’s unlikely in this application, electric transmissions have made inroads in other modes of transportation. Automotive, marine azipods, etc.

Consider the advantages of an electric transmission in this application...
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sonic67
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:25 pm

Some interesting specific of the V-280:

The V-280 is designed for a cruising speed of 320 mph (520 km/h). It will reportedly have a top speed 350 mph (560 km/h), a range of 2,400 miles (3,900 km), and an effective combat range of 580 to 920 miles (930 to 1,480 km). Maximum take-off weight is expected to be around 30,000 lb. The major difference between the Valor and the V-22 Osprey tiltrotor is that Valor's engines remain in place while the rotors and drive shafts tilt. A driveshaft runs through the straight wing, allowing both prop rotors to be driven by a single engine in the event of engine loss. The V-280 will have retractable landing gear and a triple-redundant fly by wire control system.
 
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:22 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:


In contrast, an AV-8B can take-off and land as a regular aircraft, if there is a 6,000ft runway available.

(Ok, I admit I'm guessing that last bit - maybe the undercarriage isn't actually stressed for those types of operations - I confess I've never seen an AV-8 land in that manner)


Here you go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cxATLtHZZA
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:51 am

Kiwirob wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
In contrast, an AV-8B can take-off and land as a regular aircraft, if there is a 6,000ft runway available.

(Ok, I admit I'm guessing that last bit - maybe the undercarriage isn't actually stressed for those types of operations - I confess I've never seen an AV-8 land in that manner)


Here you go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cxATLtHZZA

I'm grateful for the response, but actually it's not what it claims. Despite the video title, when you finally get to the take-off @9:21 you can clearly see that the thrust nozzles are pointing at ~60deg down therefore this is an assisted take-off. There are also clues in terms of the amount of runway used. Likewise the landing is much slower than one might expect.

This still leaves me worrying if the tyres are stressed for normal runway speeds, or more designed as big fat shock absorbers.

Sorry.
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Ozair
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:10 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:


Here you go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cxATLtHZZA

I'm grateful for the response, but actually it's not what it claims. Despite the video title, when you finally get to the take-off @9:21 you can clearly see that the thrust nozzles are pointing at ~60deg down therefore this is an assisted take-off. There are also clues in terms of the amount of runway used. Likewise the landing is much slower than one might expect.

This still leaves me worrying if the tyres are stressed for normal runway speeds, or more designed as big fat shock absorbers.

Sorry.

Have a look at the AV-8B NATOPS available here, https://info.publicintelligence.net/AV-8B-000.pdf

There is a section on conventional take off and landing which says the following,


7.3.3 Conventional Takeoff
The CTO can be used when configuration or environmental conditions preclude use of any other takeoff type (i.e.,
crosswinds or asymmetric loadings). The CTO is restricted to gross weights that will not cause the wheel/tire
limitation speed of 180 KGS to be exceeded on the takeoff roll. Refer to Performance Data, A1--AV8BB--NFM--400.

7.6.7 Conventional Landing
A standard CL, Figure 7-7, requires substantially greater distance to stop than a SL or RVL. Landing distance
available is a critical consideration when performing a CL. The brakes are designed primarily for V/STOL and are
marginal for a CL without PNB; therefore, No PNB CLs should be used only as an emergency procedure. Refer to
Performance Data, A1--AV8BB--NFM--400, for stopping distance with and without PNB.

It appears that the brakes are the issue for landing, not tyre stress, and that is why PNB is used.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: V-280 Valor flies for the first time

Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:26 pm

Ozair wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
This still leaves me worrying if the (AV-8B) tyres are stressed for normal runway speeds, or more designed as big fat shock absorbers.

Have a look at the AV-8B NATOPS available here, https://info.publicintelligence.net/AV-8B-000.pdf

There is a section on conventional take off and landing which says the following,
7.3.3 Conventional Takeoff; ....The CTO is restricted to gross weights that will not cause the wheel/tire limitation speed of 180 KGS to be exceeded on the takeoff roll.
7.6.7 Conventional Landing
A standard CL.... requires substantially greater distance to stop than a SL or RVL.
The brakes are designed primarily for V/STOL and are marginal for a CL without PNB; therefore, No PNB CLs should be used only as an emergency procedure.

It appears that the brakes are the issue for landing, not tyre stress, and that is why PNB is used.
LOL - it took a week, and plenty of going round the houses, but eventually we got there. Believe it or not, when I originally put the question, I only had vague suspicions in my head; I genuinely did not know this was the answer.

Thanks to a.net, Ozair, and everyone else who added something to this slightly off-topic side-issue. :D
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