VSMUT
Topic Author
Posts: 1766
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:50 am

http://www.janes.com/article/76503/uk-b ... me-updates

As noted by the Committee, its report was commissioned in response to a July report in The Times that catalogued a host of ongoing problems with the F-35. These included claims that the aircraft “is way over budget, unreliable, full of software glitches, and potentially unsafe”. It was the “unacceptable lack of transparency regarding costs, and a poor initial response from the MoD and Lockheed Martin” in the immediate wake of story that risked undermining public confidence in the programme.


It looks like even the staunchest members of this turbulent program are beginning to get tired of Lockheed Martins inability to deliver.
 
Egerton
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:50 am

Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:52 am

First, a Select Committee of the House of Commons is not the "British Government". Second there is no such thing as the British Government, it is the UK Government.

Explanations: There are a number of small Select Committees comprised of MPs (House of Commons Members). These Committees have a useful specialist role, they report to the House of Commons, and can interrogate Government Ministers, Civil Servants and members of the public. In no sense are they the Government.

The United Kingdom comprises of four nations, England, Wales, Scotland (called Great Britain, or Britain) and Northern Ireland. The UK Government is in charge of the whole of the UK (although Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have some varied devolved powers). Her Majesty's Government is the executive. It has the support of the majority of MPs in the House of Commons, and from which the Prime Minister is chosen, and she appoints Ministers. The next largest voting block in the House of Commons is Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

The work of a Select Committee is as it chooses, and it calls (usually) appropriate witnesses to its hearings. The findings of the Committee are published, and can be seen as warning flags, sometimes they make sense, occasionally the make good sense, and sometimes they are daft.

In this case I would guess (not having read the published findings) that the Committee have little idea of the complexity of a project such as the F-35. Their findings are best ignored, and put into file 13 which is where the output of grandstanding self important twerps usually goes.
 
VSMUT
Topic Author
Posts: 1766
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:35 pm

And they are already talking about possibly reducing the amount.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... -mps-hear/

Lt Gen Stephen Poffley, deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, says that he is sympathetic to cuts, and “I am afraid that is the reality of the world we are living in.”
 
CX747
Posts: 6019
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:20 pm

The anti F-35 rhetoric from some is becoming tiresome. I'm not the biggest proponent for the F-35 but GET OVER IT. You are either going to operate this aircraft which is a generation ahead of anything else or be relegated to the sidelines like the Typhoon crowd is finding out.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
jupiter2
Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2001 11:30 am

Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:33 pm

VSMUT wrote:
And they are already talking about possibly reducing the amount.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... -mps-hear/

Lt Gen Stephen Poffley, deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, says that he is sympathetic to cuts, and “I am afraid that is the reality of the world we are living in.”


Which is the reality of most western nations, who are nearly all reducing defense spending, that is the reality of the world we are living in.

An F35 or even a few could be cut from the budget and more than likely it will make absolutely no difference to the capabilities of the R.A.F or R.N. simply because the capabilities that will be offered by the F35 will be far superior to the aircraft they are replacing.
 
art
Posts: 2751
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Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:49 pm

If a decision to scale back purchases was made, then the MOD would have to consider keeping older jets the F-35 is due to replace.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... -mps-hear/

[IRONY]Ah yes, it was clever thinking to put the UK Harriers into storage instead of scrapping them/disposing of them to the USA for next to nothing. Otherwise the RN would be stuck with a couple of carriers and nothing to fly off them. [/IRONY}

Even if there were not a delay in F-35 being available for the RAF/RN, a tightened UK defence budget or a significant unfavourable shift in $US/GBP exchange rate would strain finances. I'm not sure what older jets the MOD would be thinking of keeping instead of replacing with F-35.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:52 pm

art wrote:
If a decision to scale back purchases was made, then the MOD would have to consider keeping older jets the F-35 is due to replace.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... -mps-hear/

[IRONY]Ah yes, it was clever thinking to put the UK Harriers into storage instead of scrapping them/disposing of them to the USA for next to nothing. Otherwise the RN would be stuck with a couple of carriers and nothing to fly off them. [/IRONY}


It's worth noting that the UK has taken delivery of 14 F-35s so far this year.
 
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moo
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Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:27 pm

art wrote:
If a decision to scale back purchases was made, then the MOD would have to consider keeping older jets the F-35 is due to replace.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... -mps-hear/

[IRONY]Ah yes, it was clever thinking to put the UK Harriers into storage instead of scrapping them/disposing of them to the USA for next to nothing. Otherwise the RN would be stuck with a couple of carriers and nothing to fly off them. [/IRONY}

Even if there were not a delay in F-35 being available for the RAF/RN, a tightened UK defence budget or a significant unfavourable shift in $US/GBP exchange rate would strain finances. I'm not sure what older jets the MOD would be thinking of keeping instead of replacing with F-35.


There was absolutely no situation under which the Harrier was ever considered to operate off the new carriers - they were always going to be retired before the new carriers were put into service.

The aircraft that would be retained would be the Tornado GR4 fleet, which is due to be retired in a couple of years - the F-35 is supposed to operate as a joint force between the RN and the RAF, covering fleet air arm roles as well as in a ground attack role for the RAF.
 
itchief
Posts: 164
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Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:21 pm

SamYeager2016 wrote:
art wrote:
If a decision to scale back purchases was made, then the MOD would have to consider keeping older jets the F-35 is due to replace.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... -mps-hear/

[IRONY]Ah yes, it was clever thinking to put the UK Harriers into storage instead of scrapping them/disposing of them to the USA for next to nothing. Otherwise the RN would be stuck with a couple of carriers and nothing to fly off them. [/IRONY}


It's worth noting that the UK has taken delivery of 14 F-35s so far this year.


I concur, here is some news on the F-35

Lockheed meets 2017 F-35 delivery goal
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... al-444363/
 
Andre3K
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Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:58 am

Did i miss something? What happened to my post?
 
art
Posts: 2751
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Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:58 am

Andre3K wrote:
Did i miss something? What happened to my post?


It was about the British government being unhappy with its procurement of F-35, wasn't it? The report you link to says:

As noted by the Committee, its report was commissioned in response to a July report in The Times that catalogued a host of ongoing problems with the F-35. These included claims that the aircraft “is way over budget, unreliable, full of software glitches, and potentially unsafe”. It was the “unacceptable lack of transparency regarding costs, and a poor initial response from the MoD and Lockheed Martin” in the immediate wake of story that risked undermining public confidence in the programme.

“There has been an unacceptable lack of transparency from the MoD and Lockheed Martin which risks undermining public confidence in the programme. F-35 is a major investment for the UK and we want it to succeed for the good of this country’s security.


Not sure if the parliamentary committee is being too harsh but it is the case that the delays in the F-35 programme have resulted in the UK commissioning a new carrier without the complement of aircraft intended.

In February 2007, handling trials of the MBDA Brimstone missile began,[34] however the Brimstone would remain uncleared for deployment on the GR9 by the type's early retirement.[35] The Sniper targeting pod replaced the less accurate TIALD in 2007, under an Urgent Operational Requirement (UOR) for Afghanistan.[34][N 5] Capability E would have included a Link 16 communications link,[34][37] an auxiliary communications system, and a Tactical Information Exchange Capability (TIEC) system that was planned to by deployed on both the Harrier II and the Tornado GR4.[38] In July 2007, BAE Systems completed the final of seven Harrier GR9 replacement rear fuselages for the MoD. The fuselage components were designed and built as part of a three-year £20 million programme.[39] In July 2008, Qinetiq was awarded a contract to perform upgrades and maintain the Harrier II fleet until 2018, which was the predicted out of service date for the type.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_A ... Harrier_II

F-35B performance may massively eclipse that of Harrier but had the UK government hedged their bets by retaining the Harrier stock the UK would have had a carrier with fixed wing capability until there were sufficient operationally capable F-35B to replace Harrier.
 
GDB
Posts: 13017
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: The British government is unhappy about the F-35

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:45 pm

art wrote:
Andre3K wrote:
Did i miss something? What happened to my post?


It was about the British government being unhappy with its procurement of F-35, wasn't it? The report you link to says:

As noted by the Committee, its report was commissioned in response to a July report in The Times that catalogued a host of ongoing problems with the F-35. These included claims that the aircraft “is way over budget, unreliable, full of software glitches, and potentially unsafe”. It was the “unacceptable lack of transparency regarding costs, and a poor initial response from the MoD and Lockheed Martin” in the immediate wake of story that risked undermining public confidence in the programme.

“There has been an unacceptable lack of transparency from the MoD and Lockheed Martin which risks undermining public confidence in the programme. F-35 is a major investment for the UK and we want it to succeed for the good of this country’s security.


Not sure if the parliamentary committee is being too harsh but it is the case that the delays in the F-35 programme have resulted in the UK commissioning a new carrier without the complement of aircraft intended.

In February 2007, handling trials of the MBDA Brimstone missile began,[34] however the Brimstone would remain uncleared for deployment on the GR9 by the type's early retirement.[35] The Sniper targeting pod replaced the less accurate TIALD in 2007, under an Urgent Operational Requirement (UOR) for Afghanistan.[34][N 5] Capability E would have included a Link 16 communications link,[34][37] an auxiliary communications system, and a Tactical Information Exchange Capability (TIEC) system that was planned to by deployed on both the Harrier II and the Tornado GR4.[38] In July 2007, BAE Systems completed the final of seven Harrier GR9 replacement rear fuselages for the MoD. The fuselage components were designed and built as part of a three-year £20 million programme.[39] In July 2008, Qinetiq was awarded a contract to perform upgrades and maintain the Harrier II fleet until 2018, which was the predicted out of service date for the type.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_A ... Harrier_II

F-35B performance may massively eclipse that of Harrier but had the UK government hedged their bets by retaining the Harrier stock the UK would have had a carrier with fixed wing capability until there were sufficient operationally capable F-35B to replace Harrier.


As if they cared about operational capability in the 2010 review, described by many as the worst UK defence review since WW2.
Having said that, the original Harrier retirement was around 2018/19 so it's not as if we'd have ever seen an deployed Harrier/CVF combination.

When HMS Invincible began it's sea trials in 1979, as QE did this year, there were no Sea Harriers available to deploy either, just a few in development (1st one flew in 1978).
Though being only 20000 tons and really an ASW helicopter platform when designed and ordered, it wasn't seen as an 'aircraft carrier' in the same way as the QE class are, despite them being multi purpose platforms, not just for F-35B's.

In any case, F-35B trials next year on the QE, they should be able to deploy a number from 2019.
The Sea Harriers were not operating from Invincible and the modified Hermes until 1981.

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