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SAS A340
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Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:34 am

It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:15 am

If its a system then why not? Good for Turkey!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Ozair
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:28 am

SAS A340 wrote:
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/12/29/turkey-russia-reportedly-sign-loan-deal-for-s-400-air-defense-system/

Whats next? canceling the F-35?

That is reportedly an option that the US has considered. The acquisition of an S-400 by Turkey means it will never get integrated into the NATO network. Turkey does have some good industrial benefits from the F-35 program and any reduction or cancellation of Turkey F-35s will see that work move elsewhere. It would disrupt production but the USAF would also happily take any F-35s not being delivered to Turkey.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:15 pm

Turkey is interested in buying used Harriers now. Are they planning to jump ship from the troubled F-35 program? It would be a severe blow to Lockheed Martin if they do, since they are planning to be the second biggest customer for the type:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16 ... -to-follow

In any case, Turkish participation in the F-35 program is going to be a liability for the program. They are pretty cosy with the Russians these days, and they have surely passed on information on it already. Maybe that's why Russia recently relaxed it's plans for the PAK-FA...
 
Ozair
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:30 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Turkey is interested in buying used Harriers now.

Good luck to them if they do. The Harrier has the worst safety record of any current serving military jet and is commonly referred to by the USMC as the "widow maker".
 
WIederling
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:37 pm

Ozair wrote:
"widow maker".


is that type or service linked?

F-104 was the "widow maker" in Germany.
Most other forces had much less distinct losses.

My impression of the USMC is that pranging their gear on occasion is "style".
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:41 pm

VSMUT wrote:
In any case, Turkish participation in the F-35 program is going to be a liability for the program. They are pretty cosy with the Russians these days, and they have surely passed on information on it already. Maybe that's why Russia recently relaxed it's plans for the PAK-FA...


SA has done some aquisitiion arrangements for the S-400 too.

Doing the US bidding against the RF ( that shoot down ) has hurt Turkey mightily.
Don't think Erdogan will allow that ever again.
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:41 pm

Used Harriers and the SA-400 system sound like a good fit for a country intent in living in isolation.
 
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kanban
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:07 pm

Ozair wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/12/29/turkey-russia-reportedly-sign-loan-deal-for-s-400-air-defense-system/

Whats next? canceling the F-35?
Turkey does have some good industrial benefits from the F-35 program and any reduction or cancellation of Turkey F-35s will see that work move elsewhere. It would disrupt production but the USAF would also happily take any F-35s not being delivered to Turkey.

I doubt there would be any F-35 production disruption.. A competent manufacturer would have both a back-up supply source, and a small parts reserve for when a switch over is needed.. however this is Lockheed... :duck: :duck:
 
GDB
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:35 pm

Ozair wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Turkey is interested in buying used Harriers now.

Good luck to them if they do. The Harrier has the worst safety record of any current serving military jet and is commonly referred to by the USMC as the "widow maker".


Wasn't seen that way in RAF or RN service.
I can see how the USMC might have had heavy attrition in the early days, with the original UK built AV-8A's, as there was a gap between them getting two seat versions to aid training, not until 1976 IIRC. (Probably Congress holding things up, they would go on to try and kill but only delay the AV-8B, still too 'foreign' for them maybe, despite the AV-8B being a joint MDD/BAe project led by USMC requirements).
The RAF did advise the USMC to train their prospective Harrier pilots on helicopters as well, not sure if the USMC did.
But that was all early days stuff on the original version, the fact remains that second generation Harriers in UK service did not have that reputation, despite in their last 15 years of service deploying at sea increasingly, rather like the USMC.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:48 pm

Choosing S-400 might not be as safe as they (Turkey) thinks. Iran has a large amount of the S-300 systems, and are blaming Russia for giving (or selling) the system codes to Israel which allow the S-300 to identify enemy aircraft as civilian. This allows Israel to neutralize the Iranian air defenses. S-300 and S-400 are different, but that doesn't mean the same thing couldn't happen.

Article from March 2017:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... to-israel/
 
Andre3K
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:49 pm

As I have worked on the center wing of every Turkey F-35 so far, I hope they never get them. Turkey is about as wishy washy as you can get.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:25 am

Could not the combination of having F-35s and S400s help NATO to train and develop tactics how to attack against a S400 defence?
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 am

GDB wrote:
Ozair wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Turkey is interested in buying used Harriers now.

Good luck to them if they do. The Harrier has the worst safety record of any current serving military jet and is commonly referred to by the USMC as the "widow maker".


Wasn't seen that way in RAF or RN service.
I can see how the USMC might have had heavy attrition in the early days, with the original UK built AV-8A's, as there was a gap between them getting two seat versions to aid training, not until 1976 IIRC. (Probably Congress holding things up, they would go on to try and kill but only delay the AV-8B, still too 'foreign' for them maybe, despite the AV-8B being a joint MDD/BAe project led by USMC requirements).
The RAF did advise the USMC to train their prospective Harrier pilots on helicopters as well, not sure if the USMC did.
But that was all early days stuff on the original version, the fact remains that second generation Harriers in UK service did not have that reputation, despite in their last 15 years of service deploying at sea increasingly, rather like the USMC.

USMC Harriers are also getting pretty badly beaten up; the air frames are all experiencing some fairly heavy cracking in the fuselage. Most notably, the centre fuel tank, and the centre fuselage are particular areas of concern for the AV-8B II fleet. These sections are experiencing extensive cracking in the bulkheads, and every time they fix and strengthen the area where the cracking is occurring, the cracking appears in another adjacent section due to structural load transfer.

The issues, from what I've been told, are specific to the USMC aircraft because the USMC aircraft have gained significant weight compared their British counterparts, and the weight distribution is more towards the ends of the aircraft, increasing the structural load.

Oh, and USMC has also complained that the Pegasus engine has a sub-optimal safety and reliability record; there is an ongoing program that has been working on getting the safety and reliability record up. Not to mention the obsolescence issues many of the systems on the AV-8B fleet is facing, which the Marines are trying to address.
 
tu204
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:49 am

Now it would be intersting to see how watered down the S-400's are that Turkey is getting. It is a pretty well known fact that the export version of any Russian military hardware is to say the least inferior to the "Full Version". The only exception I guess is the Su-30MKI that India bought 250+ units of.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:56 am

JetBuddy wrote:
Choosing S-400 might not be as safe as they (Turkey) thinks. Iran has a large amount of the S-300 systems, and are blaming Russia for giving (or selling) the system codes to Israel which allow the S-300 to identify enemy aircraft as civilian. This allows Israel to neutralize the Iranian air defenses. S-300 and S-400 are different, but that doesn't mean the same thing couldn't happen.

Article from March 2017:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... to-israel/


It doesn't actually work like that. There are no secret codes that the S-300 has. The IFF codes are rotated on a regular basis so if let's say I give you Russia's IFF codes for today, that doesn't mean that you can fly a bombing run to Moscow tomorrow. I mean I guess Russia could have provided the Isrealis information on how the IFF system works on the S-300, but that is useless without the codes and it is not really a secret on how an IFF system works anyhow. It is basically a mode C transponder that you find on any civil airplane.

Just like your article says in the end, it looks like BS.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
GDB
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Re: Turkey (NATO) makes deal to buy Russian-made S-400 air defense system

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:56 am

Thanks ThePointblank, not surprising I guess given that they were built in the 1980's and since Gulf War 1 have been heavily deployed.
Not the only types of that vintage to have cracks, F-15's and F-18's IIRC.
As to the engine, there have been upgrades available for years however every $ spent there is not spent on the aircraft's replacement, which like most major programs has not kept to it's original in service timeline.

As to the thread subject, last year a small number of Turkish forces involved in a NATO exercise in Norway were sent home by their government due to a perceived insult. That ultra thin skinned Turkish leader at least thought so but maybe it was just an excuse to distance from NATO, Certainly no one else was aware of any insult to Turkey but Gollum has form for this sort of thing.

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