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LockheedBBD
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Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:35 am

Source: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacio ... -jet.shtml


It believes that an eventual tie-up between American company Boeing and Brazilian company Embraer could put technological secrets of its aircraft at risk.

In 2013 the Swedish aircraft won a long running international competition against the French Dassault Rafale and the American F/A-18, from Boeing. The contract for the aircraft was signed in 2014 and another for financing in 2015. Valued at 39.3 Swedish Krona (R$ 15.7 billion, US$ 4.9 billion), 36 aircraft are to be delivered by 2024.

To clinch the deal, Saab agreed to a mandatory provision of technology transfer to the Brazilian Air Force and national companies - quarterbacked by Embraer, which will jointly build 8 - of the 15 - total aircraft.
 
Ozair
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:20 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
Source: http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacio ... -jet.shtml


It believes that an eventual tie-up between American company Boeing and Brazilian company Embraer could put technological secrets of its aircraft at risk.

In 2013 the Swedish aircraft won a long running international competition against the French Dassault Rafale and the American F/A-18, from Boeing. The contract for the aircraft was signed in 2014 and another for financing in 2015. Valued at 39.3 Swedish Krona (R$ 15.7 billion, US$ 4.9 billion), 36 aircraft are to be delivered by 2024.

To clinch the deal, Saab agreed to a mandatory provision of technology transfer to the Brazilian Air Force and national companies - quarterbacked by Embraer, which will jointly build 8 - of the 15 - total aircraft.

Interesting... A significant portion of the Gripen is US content, and Saab and Boeing are together for the T-X competition, so it seems unusual to take this stance. Boeing doesn't really have a comparable product to the Gripen while the F/A-18E/F is struggling on the international market (but so is Gripen). The F-15 is doing well but that is a completely different market segment to the Gripen.

I have never seen what Saab had to gain with Embraer, bar perhaps a few additional sales to Latin America, and I wonder if this claim by Saab is even contractually possible?
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:00 pm

Image

http://corren.se/nyheter/linkoping/saab ... 74509.aspx
Sorry, only in Swedish but bring translate would fix some of it ;)

"However, Saab is fading down the data that the defense cooperation with Brazil would be threatened. To the news agency directly, Saab press manager Ann Wolgers says that the company has no plans to close the cooperation with Brazil.

In recent years, Saab and Boeing have jointly developed the T-X school aircraft for the US market."
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:35 pm

I guess it was fake news then. Sigh, these days you can never know if something is real or not.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:23 pm

Saab wouldnt shut down the deal, but may change the ToT part of it.

Yes the Grippen has a lot of US parts, yes Saab and Boeing are together in the TX program, but that has nothing to do with this case and wont matter if Saab thinks its tech secrets may end up on Boeings table.

Boeing and Lockheed often develop stuff together... do u think one of them would just give up its tech to the other? dont think so...
 
Ozair
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
Saab wouldnt shut down the deal, but may change the ToT part of it.

Yes the Grippen has a lot of US parts, yes Saab and Boeing are together in the TX program, but that has nothing to do with this case and wont matter if Saab thinks its tech secrets may end up on Boeings table.

Boeing works on and with many different military customers all around the world. It is standard for these projects to involve access to secret and nationally sensitive data and technology.

It seems naive that Saab thinks that Boeing will steal their technology when that should be held within the military side of Embraer. If this really is a risk, then the way to overcome it is for Embraer to enact controls to ensure data resides where it is supposed to and accessed only by those who are supposed to. This really is standard industry practise.

YuriMG2 wrote:
Boeing and Lockheed often develop stuff together... do u think one of them would just give up its tech to the other? dont think so...

For military contracts in most cases those companies work together for the US Government who owns the technology and is funding the work, not the respective companies. Either way, the companies control access to their information, ensuring that this doesn’t become an issue.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:26 pm

Ozair wrote:
YuriMG2 wrote:
Saab wouldnt shut down the deal, but may change the ToT part of it.

Yes the Grippen has a lot of US parts, yes Saab and Boeing are together in the TX program, but that has nothing to do with this case and wont matter if Saab thinks its tech secrets may end up on Boeings table.

Boeing works on and with many different military customers all around the world. It is standard for these projects to involve access to secret and nationally sensitive data and technology.

It seems naive that Saab thinks that Boeing will steal their technology when that should be held within the military side of Embraer. If this really is a risk, then the way to overcome it is for Embraer to enact controls to ensure data resides where it is supposed to and accessed only by those who are supposed to. This really is standard industry practise.

YuriMG2 wrote:
Boeing and Lockheed often develop stuff together... do u think one of them would just give up its tech to the other? dont think so...

For military contracts in most cases those companies work together for the US Government who owns the technology and is funding the work, not the respective companies. Either way, the companies control access to their information, ensuring that this doesn’t become an issue.


The issue here is that Embraer, eventho has a separeted civil and military sector, they often mix together on projects.

The E-Jets were developed thanks to the Military Aircraft AMX, just as the KC390 used a lot of knowlege Embraer achieved in the E-Jets.

So I can see why Saab is worried, the company used basically the same people on civil and military projects, so it would be really hard for Embraer to block Boeings access to tech the company will have transferred from Saab.

I know Boeing has done this before, in Australia and UK, but the issue here is not Boeing, but Embraer difficult to separete its setors properly so Boeing wouldnt have whatever Saab is transfering to Brazil.

But I may be wrong.
 
queb
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:15 pm

And don't forget that Embraer/Saab deal allows Embraer to exclusively sell the Gripen NG in South America and some Asian and African countries.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:27 pm

queb wrote:
And don't forget that Embraer/Saab deal allows Embraer to exclusively sell the Gripen NG in South America and some Asian and African countries.


Exactly.

Can you imagine a Boeings company selling a FA18 competitor? lol
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:36 pm

Boeing can just sweeten the deal with 30 F-18s and discounted maintenance support. Done.

What's funny is, it probably would've been cheaper for Boeing to invest in the CSeries themselves than brew up the legal storm they made and have to make a hasty attempt to get in bed with another OEM as a result.
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Route66
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:06 pm

Realistically, what are we talking about here? What Grippen "tech secrets" did anybody think they might steal through Brazil?

TWA772LR wrote:
What's funny is, it probably would've been cheaper for Boeing to invest in the CSeries themselves than brew up the legal storm they made and have to make a hasty attempt to get in bed with another OEM as a result.


IF Boeing made the deal with Embraer, they would have easily walked away with the better company. Although I understand rejection can be a hard pill to swallow for C Series fans.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:46 am

Route66 wrote:

IF Boeing made the deal with Embraer, they would have easily walked away with the better company. Although I understand rejection can be a hard pill to swallow for C Series fans.


Exactly. Embraer knows how to deliver on-time, on-budget, and they exceed the specifications. Embraer engineers will also be a lot cheaper to employ than those from Canada.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:46 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Boeing can just sweeten the deal with 30 F-18s and discounted maintenance support. Done.

What's funny is, it probably would've been cheaper for Boeing to invest in the CSeries themselves than brew up the legal storm they made and have to make a hasty attempt to get in bed with another OEM as a result.


If Brazilian Air Force wanted F18 they wouldve had chosen it.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:00 am

Gripen is a brand new aircraft, from a huge defense company that has been developing military technology since WWII, from a small but first world country.

I think they got some secrets.

Sorry but not every invention in the world is from America (like the airplane itself, but thats another discussion).
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:08 am

I dont think that there will be any tie up with Boeing and Embraer.... just my :twocents: :roll:
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:20 pm

Saab to be notified of possible agreement between Embraer and Boeing

Any progress in the negotiations for the approach of Embraer with the American Boeing will have to be communicated to the Swedish Saab, company that will supply fighters for the Brazilian Air Force. The agreement was signed by Defense Minister Raul Jungmann and Saab World President Håkan Buskhe.

The Swedish executive came to Brazil to look for details about the potential business as Saab will transfer technology to Embraer in the process of manufacturing the Gripen fighters purchased by the FAB. "There is no impediment (for the business), but we want to know what is being discussed," Buskhe said.

The meeting in Brasilia was requested by Saab, which has shown concern about a possible Embraer-Boeing deal, as the Brazilian company will have access to the Saab fighter technology - a competitor of Boeing in the defense market that participated in the FAB billion-dollar competition won by the Swedes.

http://economia.estadao.com.br/noticias ... 0002165513
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Saab threatens to walk away from Gripen deal if Boeing acquires Embraer

Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:00 am

Sounds like a happy ending.

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