User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 958
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:17 pm

Stitch wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
How about landing for the minimum time necessary to transfer the President to a deep underground bunker, obviating any further need for air-to-air refuelling, and with a facility to provide 3,000,000+ meals. What are the benefits in keeping him airborne in the first place?


If the airfield is next to said bunker, you can be sure that an SS-18 with a 25MT warhead was targeted. Probably more than one.

And if the bunker is well away from said airfield, then you need to get the President there. The Greenbrier, Raven Rock and Mount Weather are all many miles away from Washington and transit via road vehicle or even helicopter could be dicey during and after a large nuclear exchange.

Yes, let's make life easy for the enemy by only have one bunker adjacent to one airfield.
Or one helicopter flying him away from that airfield in just one direction.

Or..... prepare yourself for a radical idea.... construct several bunkers at several different airfields, plus a fair few dummy bunker entrances at others; fancy entrances at ground level that only lead to an insignificant hole in the ground.

Then arrange for Air Force One to briefly touch down at a selection of airfields, spending just enough time on the ground at each one to leave people asking themselves "Did anyone actually see the POTUS get off the plane before it took off again?"

And even if we did catch a glimpse of a tall man wearing sunglasses and an orange mop on his head, which one of the six helicopters did he get on board? Was he heading North, South, East, or West, or was he on board the other two helicopters that just flew round & round in ever decreasing circles until they disappeared up their own exhausts.....

And I got all this simply by googlng the word "decoy". :rotfl

How many SS-18s are you willing to waste chasing shadows and ghosts....?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoy
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 25226
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:21 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Yes, let's make life easy for the enemy by only have one bunker adjacent to one airfield.
Or one helicopter flying him away from that airfield in just one direction.

Or..... prepare yourself for a radical idea.... construct several bunkers at several different airfields, plus a fair few dummy bunker entrances at others; fancy entrances at ground level that only lead to an insignificant hole in the ground.

Then arrange for Air Force One to briefly touch down at a selection of airfields, spending just enough time on the ground at each one to leave people asking themselves "Did anyone actually see the POTUS get off the plane before it took off again?"


Consider for a moment what that level of infrastructure would cost to build.

And then remember we're complaining about $24 million... :biggrin:
 
FrmrKSEngr
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:05 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:41 pm

Everyone is talking about 3,000 meals for the doomsday scenario, it is not. If you saw any of the documentaries on AF-1 you will see when they fly overseas they take their food with them from Andrews. No Host catering truck pulling up at the airport to restock. Go on a 10 day trip to 10 cities. 102 people (26 crew, 76 Pax) X 3 meals per day X 10 days.~ 3,000 meals. That is a worst case scenario.

Go doomsday and MREs would probably enter the mix like E-4B. Note that E-4Bs fly with Flight attendants who do a great job preparing fresh meals in a pretty spartan galley.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1851
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
I was thinking along the same line, why all the engineering cost, the fridges already exist, just make new identical ones, no engineering or certification needed.


The original ones were custom designed 31 years ago. They likely use many components that are by now obsolete and not available.
 
FrmrKSEngr
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:05 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:18 am

iamlucky13 wrote:

However, the VC-137's could get away with being more basic, because the E-4's were in the works and then entered service in 1973. That's the 747 based airborne command post that the president would have transferred to if necessary. My understanding is the goal now is for the VC-25's and their replacements to be sufficient to handle the role the E-4's were designed for.


SAC had flying command posts before E-4s, EC-135 Looking Glass.. The initial E-4A was just a cross deck of EC-135 equipment into a modified 747. AF-1 comms have never approached EC-135 or E-4B. For starters no MILSTAR on AF-1 - no big hump. On all renderings of the AF1 replacement I have not seen a MILSTAR hump.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 958
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:53 am

Stitch wrote:
Consider for a moment what that level of infrastructure would cost to build.

And then remember we're complaining about $24 million... :biggrin:

Nope, wrong again.
This thread is about one aspect of Air Force One, costing $24 million.
My suggestion would save this $24 million, and a whole lot more.
Less requirement for air-to air refuelling
Less need to maintain a constant 400 nm square protective box all around AF1

It might even be the best way to save the President's life; do you care to put a price on that?
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3799
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:07 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Consider for a moment what that level of infrastructure would cost to build.

And then remember we're complaining about $24 million... :biggrin:

Nope, wrong again.
This thread is about one aspect of Air Force One, costing $24 million.
My suggestion would save this $24 million, and a whole lot more.
Less requirement for air-to air refuelling
Less need to maintain a constant 400 nm square protective box all around AF1

It might even be the best way to save the President's life; do you care to put a price on that?


there are several underground bolt holes built during the cold war era that are maintained...
the main problem is the president (or President when we have one) doesn't just sit around in a convenient spot to escape to one or the other 70% of the time (and none are near a golf course in Florida)..
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3511
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:50 am

kanban wrote:
(and none are near a golf course in Florida)..

I would not be so sure. I’ve got it from usually reliable sources that there are plenty of bunkers around golf courses. ;-)
Attamottamotta!
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 958
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:33 pm

petertenthije wrote:
kanban wrote:
(and none are near a golf course in Florida)..

I would not be so sure. I’ve got it from usually reliable sources that there are plenty of bunkers around golf courses. ;-)

Damn you for beating me to the best punch-line ever! :rotfl:
There are two things that happen when you get old.
1. You start to lose your memory.
2. What was I saying again?
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:39 pm

FrmrKSEngr wrote:
Everyone is talking about 3,000 meals for the doomsday scenario, it is not. If you saw any of the documentaries on AF-1 you will see when they fly overseas they take their food with them from Andrews. No Host catering truck pulling up at the airport to restock


I though that when POTUS travel, he usually have dinner at the Embassy or Consulate (if it's a long stay). But I guess even if you dine at the Embassy, it would be logistically cheaper to bring along their (per-screened) food as opposed to sending a staff over and acquire and screen local food. But if that is the case, wouldn't you be better sending the food over via a container freezer in a C-17?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:48 pm

Just read the CNN article. The $24 mill is for replacing the existing VC-25's refrigeration units. The cost include engineering, built and support. So if you figure the engineering hours to spec out the units, release the retrofit kits and provide product support for X number of years, then the $24 mil is not nu-reasonable.
As Kanban has noted, the cost of making the units themselves are probably high but not exorbitant. Most of the money will go into the engineering and support side.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
FrmrKSEngr
Posts: 311
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:05 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:17 pm

bikerthai wrote:
FrmrKSEngr wrote:
Everyone is talking about 3,000 meals for the doomsday scenario, it is not. If you saw any of the documentaries on AF-1 you will see when they fly overseas they take their food with them from Andrews. No Host catering truck pulling up at the airport to restock


I though that when POTUS travel, he usually have dinner at the Embassy or Consulate (if it's a long stay). But I guess even if you dine at the Embassy, it would be logistically cheaper to bring along their (per-screened) food as opposed to sending a staff over and acquire and screen local food. But if that is the case, wouldn't you be better sending the food over via a container freezer in a C-17?

bt


Not every mission goes to the embassy, and you still plan for 3 hots per person per day (plus snacks). I do not know the logistics for eating on the ground, I just remember seeing that AF-1 does not generally take on food overseas.

As for the C-17 carrying provisions - I speculate that security is easier if the food is always in the possession of the 89th on AF-1.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:03 pm

FrmrKSEngr wrote:

Not every mission goes to the embassy, and you still plan for 3 hots per person per day (plus snacks). I do not know the logistics for eating on the ground, I just remember seeing that AF-1 does not generally take on food overseas.

As for the C-17 carrying provisions - I speculate that security is easier if the food is always in the possession of the 89th on AF-1.


Eating at the Embassy defeats the purpose of overseas travel - to meet with counterparts from other countries.

89th maintains the security of the food by randomly shopping at grocery stores in the DC metro area. This would be difficult/impossible while overseas so everything needed is loaded at Andrews before departure.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
WIederling
Posts: 5919
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:12 pm

Aesma wrote:
I was thinking along the same line, why all the engineering cost, the fridges already exist, just make new identical ones, no engineering or certification needed.

Sorry, we no longer know how to do those. :-)

What was it about styro foam in warheads that was forgotten how to do?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3799
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:21 pm

I suspect that only a couple refrigerators are used for the president and flight crew.. the food for the journalists and cling-ons is probably separate and of a much lower standard.. but then again how much space do you need for 10 days of McDonalds 1/4 pounders with cheese??? and what would they taste like after 10 days.
 
User avatar
Florianopolis
Posts: 283
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:54 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:52 pm

WIederling wrote:
What was it about styro foam in warheads that was forgotten how to do?


I thought it was fine, but the old stuff had impurities that happened to be necessary to make it work, so the new stuff had to have the impurities added back.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3584
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:34 pm

kanban wrote:
I suspect that only a couple refrigerators are used for the president and flight crew.. the food for the journalists and cling-ons is probably separate and of a much lower standard.. but then again how much space do you need for 10 days of McDonalds 1/4 pounders with cheese??? and what would they taste like after 10 days.


Everybody on AF 1 eats off the same menu. .....
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Saw another article on the NY Times quoting Defense One . . .

"Air Force One must be able to feed passengers and crew for weeks without resupplying . . ."

So they are bringing along a ton of food. And yes the $24 millions are just for a couple of chillers. Hopefully the same design can be used on the new 747-8. I suspect the specification will be as such . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3799
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:40 am

Quick solution, separate menus (Coke, coffee and sandwiches packed in inert gases for steerage, burgers and soggy fries up front.. ). There are plenty of meals out there that do not require cooling.. just check out the local grocery. Question, if they're up there for two weeks, at what point do the service the lav holding tanks????? is there enough water on board for that time period?
 
DL757NYC
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:12 am

77west wrote:
DaufuskieGuy wrote:
how long can AF1 stay aloft with aerial refueling? Until they run out of food and water?


I have heard oil consumption is the limiting factor as well. On a transpacific crossing (12-14 hours) on a 747 could requires a few pints per engine to top them up. Now extrapolate that over, say, 2-3 refuellings, and the VC25 probably would only get, maybe, 72 hours or thereabouts?

But they probably have bigger oil sumps and/or the ability to top up from onboard oil supplies, which a commercial jet does not.

72 hours would probably be more than enough though. If you need to stay up longer, I dare say there is no "World" to come back to at that point.



It remember hearing the plane can fly for up to a week. It may have a place to add oil to the engines from within the plane.
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:34 pm

kanban wrote:
Question, if they're up there for two weeks, at what point do the service the lav holding tanks????? is there enough water on board for that time period?


Answer . . . They are not up there for two weeks. They are out there for two weeks. I guess potable water can easily be acquired and tested locally. And I guess in the long run, the up front cost of $24 mil to bring on supplies for two weeks would still be cheaper than re-supplying by C-17 over the life of the aircraft.

Also note that they still need to update the chiller. The quantity of meals have become irrelevant for the existing aircraft the cooler is already done. For the new PAR aircraft however, it is a relevant question to ask.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 3799
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:06 pm

bikerthai wrote:
kanban wrote:
Question, if they're up there for two weeks, at what point do the service the lav holding tanks????? is there enough water on board for that time period?


Answer . . . They are not up there for two weeks. They are out there for two weeks. I guess potable water can easily be acquired and tested locally. And I guess in the long run, the up front cost of $24 mil to bring on supplies for two weeks would still be cheaper than re-supplying by C-17 over the life of the aircraft.

Also note that they still need to update the chiller. The quantity of meals have become irrelevant for the existing aircraft the cooler is already done. For the new PAR aircraft however, it is a relevant question to ask.

bt

OK I over generalized. but with the extended flight time due to refueling and larger oil reservoirs, is there a point when they run out of water and waste tank space.. of course if they're of there because of nuclear war, I guess the S**T has already fallen so some more won't matter
 
User avatar
bikerthai
Posts: 2359
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: Air Force One Needs New Refrigerators. They Cost $24 Million

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:41 pm

The point of the NY article and FrmrKSEngr is that the 3000 meals is not to support extended flights. They bring along that much food for when the president makes a one or two weeks trip abroad. I suppose the logistics of bringing that much food is much easier and cheaper than having to re-supply the plane as they go from one country to another.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos