estorilm
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2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:03 pm

Multiple sources reporting that Russia has perhaps sent two SU-57's to Syria, based on a video appearing to show the aircraft landing there.

Business Insider
Russia appears to have deployed its next-generation fighter jet to Syria — and it's a major problem for the F-22
http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-looks-to-have-deployed-su-57-to-syria-posing-problem-for-f-22-2018-2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvoyl7wDwcc

I really don't understand what's going on here, unless they're actually ballsy enough to attempt radar and sensor testing on NATO aircraft over there, in an ACTUAL combat zone.

It would appear the aircraft isn't even close to operational deploy-ability, I'd imagine it still has extensive weapons testing, sensor testing, software programming/testing, flight envelope expansion requirements, etc. Not to mention, I thought only one of the test aircraft has even FLOWN with the new engines yet, and they still have the exposed / bare engine fairings? Even in a perfect world, I can't see these things being very reliable yet either. It all seems very risky, unless it's a crazy press / PR stunt just to get all the youtube crazies fired-up about their "superior technology".

Regardless, every time I see this thing it reminds me more of an SU-35 or F-15 than a stealth 5th gen. I have serious doubts about its RCS (see my other thread) but realize they may be counting on LO as primarily an interceptor requirement, and went with 3D vectoring and far cheaper R&D / construction by leaving the rear/bottom more conventional. Even from the top though, the engines are perfectly round? Even with RAM that has to be an RCS disaster.

I also didn't realize that the inlet ducts (while featuring a "stealth shape") are actually separated from the fuselage (both inboard and against the lower wing root) by a sizable gap. Am I crazy or does that just scream an incredible radar return?

Anyways - curious to hear your thoughts on why they may be there in the first place.
 
Ozair
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:29 pm

estorilm wrote:

Anyways - curious to hear your thoughts on why they may be there in the first place.

I am certainly surprised and was also sceptical as first but I have seen multiple different videos now. It is not uncommon for Russia to send aircraft that are still in test into a combat zone, they did so with numerous other platforms over the last 25 years, but I don’t really see the value in it.

As far as I am aware, there are no actual production Su-57s flying today, there are probably ten prototypes used for dev and test and perhaps a couple of ground examples. I am not sure if any of those ten prototypes are even in the same configuration while the first actual production aircraft, of an initial batch of twelve ordered, are supposed to arrive sometime late this year or next.

Some scenarios to rationalise the deployment:
- Flying two of the prototypes to Syria will allow Russia to validate the effectiveness of the respective mods on each jet but with production now going on it seems late.
- Russia want to get India excited and recommitted after seeing the Su-57 drop some bombs on insurgents.
- Russia are keen to have the Su-57 show its stuff which will allow them to start export conversations with potential buyers.

My personal best option
- Russia has done this intentionally to claim that the Su-57 will be the second 5th gen aircraft to be combat proven, before the F-35 and the J-20. Russia may not want to lose face given the recent reports of the J-20 reaching IOC and deploying the Su-57 will forever give them the opportunity to say that it reached combat first.

Plenty could go wrong here though, the base could be shelled or rocketed and an aircraft could be damaged or destroyed. It could break down and be struck there for a period of time. Other nations may gain more information that Russia intents on the aircraft while it is operating in Syria.
 
YIMBY
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:47 pm

IMO, just propaganda, as claimed in the article. To give some spirit to own troops, impress allies and spread fud to enemies, but mostly marketing to potential export candidates. Could be Putin's personal, obsessive decision, not necessarily supported by the military.
 
Noray
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:23 pm

This comes a week or so after we heard about Russians killed by superior American air assets, and less than four weeks before the Russian presidential elections. It probably is a message of strength and reassurance to the Russian people. But it might at he same time be a message of determination directed at the Turks who are on the attack in the north, and maybe even at Israel.

Russians are chess players, and they've just moved their queen to a new position.
 
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Slug71
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:21 am

The SU-57 has new engines coming. There was an image floating around in one of the new engine articles that also showed the aircraft without all the metal looking panels around the engines.

http://defence-blog.com/news/russia-rev ... craft.html

Image

Here you can see a lot less of the metal panels around the engines,

Image
Image

My guess would be they want some kind of real world test of some systems but very likely just a PR stunt.
 
WIederling
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:40 pm

Noray wrote:
Russians killed by superior American air assets,


plane bombing while overstepping some negotiated limitations? just the regular backstabbing behavior.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
estorilm
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:17 pm

Slug71 wrote:
The SU-57 has new engines coming. There was an image floating around in one of the new engine articles that also showed the aircraft without all the metal looking panels around the engines.

http://defence-blog.com/news/russia-rev ... craft.html

Image

Here you can see a lot less of the metal panels around the engines,

Image
Image

My guess would be they want some kind of real world test of some systems but very likely just a PR stunt.

Thanks, I figured it was related to the early engine config. I wonder what kind of performance / supercruise it'll be able to attain now?

Still, those inlet duct gaps to air frame/wing fairing look horribly un-stealthy - and the wing root weapon bay? Ouch.
 
Scorpius
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:58 pm

Experimental and combat exploitation of new types of weapons is a fairly common practice, and Syria is now being used by the Russian armed forces as a testing ground for new solutions. Almost 200 weapons have already been tested in Syria for the first time, why not test the t-50 Now? In this case, it is not a PR, because in the Russian media information appeared not through official channels, but from the Twitter of a Syrian blogger. At the same time, the Ministry of defense has not yet commented on this news - it seems that they generally tried to conduct the case without much publicity.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:14 pm

estorilm wrote:
Still, those inlet duct gaps to air frame/wing fairing look horribly un-stealthy - and the wing root weapon bay? Ouch.


The gap is to keep the skin boundary layer air from entering the inlet. Even the F-22 has them.
One way to get rid of this skin boundary layer is suck out the layer just before the inlet.

Some 25 odd years ago we kicked around the idea of sucking out the boundary layer in a commercial engine inlet. I wonder what ever happened to that technology.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
jupiter2
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:33 pm

WIederling wrote:
Noray wrote:
Russians killed by superior American air assets,


plane bombing while overstepping some negotiated limitations? just the regular backstabbing behavior.)


Hardly, if you'd taken the time to look up the relevant details of what happened.
 
estorilm
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:37 pm

bikerthai wrote:
estorilm wrote:
Still, those inlet duct gaps to air frame/wing fairing look horribly un-stealthy - and the wing root weapon bay? Ouch.


The gap is to keep the skin boundary layer air from entering the inlet. Even the F-22 has them.
One way to get rid of this skin boundary layer is suck out the layer just before the inlet.

Some 25 odd years ago we kicked around the idea of sucking out the boundary layer in a commercial engine inlet. I wonder what ever happened to that technology.

bt

Thanks for the info, I had almost forgot about the F-22 as the gap is more pronounced. I understood (loosely) the aerodynamic concepts behind them, but was speaking more to the RCS implications.

Still - a couple observations with that in mind.

About half the of the inlet is exposed from the belly area of the aircraft.
Image

Also, the planes are not parallel, in fact the edges are both rounded and 45-degrees at the corners. Inlet is straight, while body is curving away from it.
The F-22 for example, has a defined gap - however it is perfectly parallel to the body as well as being the exact length of the body (so beams can't enter from the belly area, presumably).
Image

From a skin boundary-layer issue POV, why did Sukhoi need the separation from the wing areas as well?


Either way you slice it, if you stare at the two aircraft long enough, you realize countless examples of just how many shortcuts Sukhoi was forced to take with the design versus the F-22.

It's clean - for a Russian aircraft - but still has random bits and pieces all over, the fairings for the control surfaces are huge, etc. Plus I know this is a first gen engine photo, but those circular engine housings are just... no bueno.
Image
 
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Tugger
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:05 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Noray wrote:
Russians killed by superior American air assets,


plane bombing while overstepping some negotiated limitations? just the regular backstabbing behavior.)


Hardly, if you'd taken the time to look up the relevant details of what happened.

Here's a front line assessment on the F-up by the Russian backed forces:
http://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian ... ens-818073

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Scorpius
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:24 pm

estorilm wrote:
From a skin boundary-layer issue POV, why did Sukhoi need the separation from the wing areas as well?


Either way you slice it, if you stare at the two aircraft long enough, you realize countless examples of just how many shortcuts Sukhoi was forced to take with the design versus the F-22.

It's clean - for a Russian aircraft - but still has random bits and pieces all over, the fairings for the control surfaces are huge, etc. Plus I know this is a first gen engine photo, but those circular engine housings are just... no bueno.


It's not clear why you're always comparing the T-50 to the F-22 if these aircraft even have different application concepts. For some reason, you pay attention to the influx and shape of the bonnets, although in fact the value for stealth is determined not visually, but by the results of calculations. Do you think Sukhoi's supercomputers are less powerful than those that considered the F-22? Is it serious? These planes are different because they represent two different schools, two different approaches to solving the problems of creating fifth-generation aircraft. And believe me, compared to the F-22, the T-50 has many advantages. Banal at least because it is designed for 15 years later. And specific advantages or disadvantages can be determined only after prolonged operation and combat use.
 
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:34 pm

Scorpius wrote:
the value for stealth is determined not visually, but by the results of calculations.

And the odd thing is that right now the aircraft's RCS is being tested and examined intensely by the other military's engaged in the region. From every angle it can be scanned from a lot will be learned about the RCS and the effectiveness of the new stealth tech.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Spacepope
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:38 pm

Electronic snooping is going to be really interesting in that part of the world for a while...
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BawliBooch
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:42 am

Nothing surprising.

All major powers will use existing conflicts to battle-test their new designs.
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WIederling
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:23 am

Tugger wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

plane bombing while overstepping some negotiated limitations? just the regular backstabbing behavior.)


Hardly, if you'd taken the time to look up the relevant details of what happened.

Here's a front line assessment on the F-up by the Russian backed forces:
http://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian ... ens-818073

Tugg


The US has no legal presence in Syria.
They attacked forces of the legal government to protect terrorists.( and their own base squatting on Syrian territory.)
no superior technology just a plain case of trespass.
Murphy is an optimist
 
VSMUT
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:10 pm

There are already rumours that they have been in action. Supposedly dropped weapons on targets near Idlib.

https://twitter.com/IvanSidorenko1/stat ... 0402895872
 
WIederling
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:22 pm

VSMUT wrote:
There are already rumours that they have been in action. Supposedly dropped weapons on targets near Idlib.

https://twitter.com/IvanSidorenko1/stat ... 0402895872


2 more and another AWACS have been seen in Syria.
https://southfront.org/russia-deploys-t ... a-reports/
Murphy is an optimist
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:08 pm

Tugger wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

plane bombing while overstepping some negotiated limitations? just the regular backstabbing behavior.)


Hardly, if you'd taken the time to look up the relevant details of what happened.

Here's a front line assessment on the F-up by the Russian backed forces:
http://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian ... ens-818073

Tugg


Geeze, that is the most tragic thing I've read in a long time. The Russians weren't prepared at all.
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:37 pm

The Russian television station "Rain" [Dozhd] that was banned from cable channels for not toeing the line, carried a report by Interfax.

So the following is a nested and machine-translated quote: ""Many samples of our weapons were tested in Syria, there were sent and Su-57. This is an opportunity to test a new fighter in other climatic conditions, to dustproofness and so on, "the source said."

Reading the entire text, I'm not sure if it means that now, there are 4 of these fighters in Syria.

See:
https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... iTp_zPLmkw
 
Planeflyer
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:50 pm

W, do u really want to define the Syrian government as legal?
 
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cpd
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:17 am

That sensor on the nose of the SU-57 pictured above must ruin the stealth characteristics of the plane, surely? Compare the extremely flat surfaces of the F22 with very little external features.

There are a lot of other little details too that must surely compromise the SU-57 as well. As the other person above mentioned, looking at the two planes you see so many stark differences.
 
Ozair
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:15 am

cpd wrote:
That sensor on the nose of the SU-57 pictured above must ruin the stealth characteristics of the plane, surely? Compare the extremely flat surfaces of the F22 with very little external features.

Do you mean the pitot tube at the very front? That is used for testing purposes. No production Su-57, or any Su-57 fitted with a radar, will have a sensor in that location.

As for the rest of the airframe, we haven’t seen a full production version of the jet yet, everything to date are prototypes that only have a subset of systems, most lack any application of RAM and do not incorporate other mods to bring the airframe to its true RCS potential.
 
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Slug71
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:49 am

Ozair wrote:
As for the rest of the airframe, we haven’t seen a full production version of the jet yet, everything to date are prototypes that only have a subset of systems, most lack any application of RAM and do not incorporate other mods to bring the airframe to its true RCS potential.


I read an article fairly recently (which I can't find now) that stated the final test/development frames will have updates that prior frames did not have and that could/will extend into the production frames. Earlier built frames will then be modified/updated once the final specification has been reached.

Sounded like it could almost receive continuous improvements as it works toward the FGFA/PMF requirements for India.
 
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cpd
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:02 am

Ozair wrote:
cpd wrote:
That sensor on the nose of the SU-57 pictured above must ruin the stealth characteristics of the plane, surely? Compare the extremely flat surfaces of the F22 with very little external features.

Do you mean the pitot tube at the very front? That is used for testing purposes. No production Su-57, or any Su-57 fitted with a radar, will have a sensor in that location.

As for the rest of the airframe, we haven’t seen a full production version of the jet yet, everything to date are prototypes that only have a subset of systems, most lack any application of RAM and do not incorporate other mods to bring the airframe to its true RCS potential.


The sensor in front of the canopy (looking like an eye), it's the IRST if I'm not mistaken. It is said to be treated to reduce its radar return, but I still wonder.
 
Ozair
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:49 am

cpd wrote:
The sensor in front of the canopy (looking like an eye), it's the IRST if I'm not mistaken. It is said to be treated to reduce its radar return, but I still wonder.

Yes that is the IRST and yes it is treated but the intent is it withdraws 180 degrees when not in use and therefore has a RAM coated rear that faces forward. Obviously creates a larger RCS when facing forward and in use.
 
WIederling
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:23 am

Planeflyer wrote:
W, do u really want to define the Syrian government as legal?


Not the most intelligent question. In scope of _accepted_ international law they are legal.
What the US thinks has no place though via their illegal behavior matters.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:14 pm

Jenan Moussa‏ @jenanmoussa
Retweeted MSF International
MSF: Doctors and nurses collapsing as medical response in East Ghouta reaches its limits. @akhbarJenan Moussa added,
MSF International

@MSF
#URGENT “Our hospital is full, and we already got hit twice. When the patients started overflowing, we reassigned another location. We are 250 people and we have nothing to eat”…
10:52 AM - 24 Feb 2018
https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/ ... 2734246912

Just so reality may intrude.
 
WIederling
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:28 pm

SeJoWa wrote:
Just so reality may intrude.


Whatever Twitter is. Reality it is not.
but it is the perfect funnel for "Alternate Truth" ( vulgo plain lies )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SeJoWa
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:11 pm

You mean the people of Medecins Sans Frontieres make it all up. Right.

Syria: Extraordinary mass-casualty influxes in East Ghouta as hospitals run short of life-saving medicines | 21 February 2018

...
This comes amid an extraordinary increase in bombing and shelling over the area, with 13 hospitals and clinics that are regularly or ad-hoc supported by MSF hit and damaged or destroyed over just three days, ...

http://www.msf.org/en/article/syria-ext ... ife-saving
 
777PHX
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:43 pm

WIederling wrote:
The US has no legal presence in Syria.
They attacked forces of the legal government to protect terrorists.( and their own base squatting on Syrian territory.)
no superior technology just a plain case of trespass.


It amazes me the lengths some of you will go to bash the US.

Yes, the same "legal government" that has used chemical weapons on their own people multiple times. Those same wonderful human beings, yes.

WIederling wrote:
What the US thinks has no place though via their illegal behavior matters.


Here you are again, defending a regime that committed mass murder on its own citizens as you flail about trying to take a shot at the US.

This is the handiwork of the piece of trash you're trying to defend here:

Image
 
jupiter2
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:57 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
jupiter2 wrote:

Hardly, if you'd taken the time to look up the relevant details of what happened.

Here's a front line assessment on the F-up by the Russian backed forces:
http://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian ... ens-818073

Tugg


Geeze, that is the most tragic thing I've read in a long time. The Russians weren't prepared at all.


The thing is though, it was the Russian mercenaries who attacked the stronghold that the Americans where at with the Kurdish forces and it would appear to have been with the approval of the Kremlin, at least according to an article similar to the attached one. What the hell did they expect them to do, step aside and let the Russians/Syrians through ? The loss of life is lamentable, but it must solely lay at the feet at whoever decided this was a good idea to test the resolve of the American forces there. Wagner, who the Russians were working for has deep roots in the Kremlin, so ultimately it would appear that the Kremlin authorised this and is now distancing themselves from it. While being a mercenary is a poor career choice, these guys who were doing what they were told to do by their boss (Wagner/Kremlin) appear to have been lambs to the slaughter. While I can't blame anyone else for these guys poor choice of career, I do feel sorry for them and their loved ones and the lack of respect being shown to these men for 1) being sent to do this ridiculous attack and 2) the lack of acknowledgement of the sacrifice these guys ultimately made.

It is shameful, but then the whole situation in Syria would be farcical, if it wasn't for the fact of the innocent people being killed everyday. It is still beyond my own belief how any government/armed forces can attack and kill their own citizens and to be doing it for years.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:13 am

Me W is a man of strict principals. Syria is a legal country...end of story. If only thecworld were that simple.

References to the Nazis are often overused but in this case I think the following is an appropriate question; when did Nazi Germany become an illegal entity?

I actually don’t know the answer but it makes for an interesting thought exercise in light of places like Syria.

Re the SU 57 I’m guessing Russia sees Syria as a good opportunity to test it out. I think they’ll figure it out. They know how to do this.
 
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:25 pm

estorilm wrote:
About half the of the inlet is exposed from the belly area of the aircraft.


The configuration of the SU-57 inlets (how it separate farther away from the fuselage) lead me to believe that those inlets were design to take air at greater angles of yaw etc. where you get more boudary layer flow from the fuselage.

estorilm wrote:
From a skin boundary-layer issue POV, why did Sukhoi need the separation from the wing areas as well?


I saw that, The F-22 inlet start right at the tip of the wing. So there is no need for separation from the wing where as the SU inlet is set further back.

As for all this political discussion. There is a war going on people. Whether it's legal or illegal is irrelevant for the people on the ground. Even before the US enter the fray, there was only one narrative: those who has the most fire power control the narative. Now we are down to to major faction with Turkey trying to stabilize a third. Once the Turk get what they want or get their nosed bloodied enough and the Syrian government finally clear out all the pocket of resistance internal to their area of control, we can then get a believable cease fire and people can truly start to re-build.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
estorilm
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:41 pm

Scorpius wrote:
estorilm wrote:
From a skin boundary-layer issue POV, why did Sukhoi need the separation from the wing areas as well?


Either way you slice it, if you stare at the two aircraft long enough, you realize countless examples of just how many shortcuts Sukhoi was forced to take with the design versus the F-22.

It's clean - for a Russian aircraft - but still has random bits and pieces all over, the fairings for the control surfaces are huge, etc. Plus I know this is a first gen engine photo, but those circular engine housings are just... no bueno.


It's not clear why you're always comparing the T-50 to the F-22 if these aircraft even have different application concepts. For some reason, you pay attention to the influx and shape of the bonnets, although in fact the value for stealth is determined not visually, but by the results of calculations. Do you think Sukhoi's supercomputers are less powerful than those that considered the F-22? Is it serious? These planes are different because they represent two different schools, two different approaches to solving the problems of creating fifth-generation aircraft. And believe me, compared to the F-22, the T-50 has many advantages. Banal at least because it is designed for 15 years later. And specific advantages or disadvantages can be determined only after prolonged operation and combat use.


You're not really contributing anything to the conversation here - just complaining that I bothered to make the comparison in the first place.

Your logic is that because it was designed 15 years later, it must be superior, or that their computers must be more powerful 15 years later. Not sure about you, but no - I'm actually not sure of that. The computing power may be irrelevant - actual software models and knowledge of stealth technology in general, which yes.. at the time of the T-50's initiation was AT LEAST 15 years behind that of most top-level US contractors, probably makes a huge difference, especially with the insane amount of funding that was poured into the Lockheed program. Not to mention engine design constraints which are WELL KNOWN to be at least 10-15+ years behind those of US contractors - which has a massive impact on what designers are able to do with the overall platform.

Explain to me then, Sukhois "supercomputers" came up with the ingenious idea to slap a bunch of conventional vent panels on the bottom and side planes of the inlet ducts as well? Perfect reflectors? And round housings.. and big wing weapons bays? 3D vector round metal turkey feather exhaust? You must be completely blind to imply that there aren't just small stealth issues with the aircraft, but MASSIVE fundamental discrepancies here. Even if these are prototype issues, the F-22 external layout and design was solidified by first flight (because they had already performed extensive RCS testing on the most advanced radar scanning platforms and buildings in the world.) Raptor 001 prototype looked nearly identical to the last full-rate production version ever received by USAF.

...and yes, I bring it up because all the mainstream media, forums, etc seem to be intent on blindly calling this aircraft a US 5th-gen-killer, and from a technical approach I'm not seeing it at all.

I'm not even sure I've come to the right conclusions here, I'm just genuinely curious and would like to start an actual dialogue about the technical details involved, and why or why not the issues I'm bringing up may or may not be relevant. If you could actually address them specifically and show me what my conclusions are incorrect, I'd happily acknowledge being wrong.
 
estorilm
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:24 pm

bikerthai wrote:
estorilm wrote:
About half the of the inlet is exposed from the belly area of the aircraft.


The configuration of the SU-57 inlets (how it separate farther away from the fuselage) lead me to believe that those inlets were design to take air at greater angles of yaw etc. where you get more boudary layer flow from the fuselage.

estorilm wrote:
From a skin boundary-layer issue POV, why did Sukhoi need the separation from the wing areas as well?


I saw that, The F-22 inlet start right at the tip of the wing. So there is no need for separation from the wing where as the SU inlet is set further back.

As for all this political discussion. There is a war going on people. Whether it's legal or illegal is irrelevant for the people on the ground. Even before the US enter the fray, there was only one narrative: those who has the most fire power control the narative. Now we are down to to major faction with Turkey trying to stabilize a third. Once the Turk get what they want or get their nosed bloodied enough and the Syrian government finally clear out all the pocket of resistance internal to their area of control, we can then get a believable cease fire and people can truly start to re-build.

bt

Good call - as soon as I sent that and re-studied the images I realized that Lockheed brought the inlets forward enough so that they essentially form the leading edge of the wing root itself, and thus there's no need for separation in the first place. This alone has to be considered a significant advantage, no?

As for politics I'm staying out of it - the aircraft and engineering is what fascinates me :) Though as OP I'm curious about why they're there still, sounds like things are getting a little more interesting on that front as well.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:43 pm

estorilm wrote:
This alone has to be considered a significant advantage, no?


The F-22 inlet similar to the F15 inlet has the top edge act as a shock generator that slow the air down to bellow Mach 1 prior to the air entering the main inlet chamber (there should be a picture out there somewhere to explain the inlet shock/aerodynamics).

With the SU-57 inlet set further in, I would suspect they sacrifice Mach+ engine efficiency for engine performance during high angle maneuvers. They would make up for the Mach + performance by the shear power of the engine (at the cost of extra fuel burn).

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
estorilm
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:04 pm

bikerthai wrote:
estorilm wrote:
This alone has to be considered a significant advantage, no?


The F-22 inlet similar to the F15 inlet has the top edge act as a shock generator that slow the air down to bellow Mach 1 prior to the air entering the main inlet chamber (there should be a picture out there somewhere to explain the inlet shock/aerodynamics).

With the SU-57 inlet set further in, I would suspect they sacrifice Mach+ engine efficiency for engine performance during high angle maneuvers. They would make up for the Mach + performance by the shear power of the engine (at the cost of extra fuel burn).

bt

Aerodynamically-speaking, that does makes sense (especially with their insistence on 3D vectoring and a2a combat / high AOA) - but the two approaches have dramatic impacts on stealth performance, right? In fact one doesn't appear to be capable of a stealthy implementation. That whole forward "glove" area (I forget the exact term, the inboard leading strake thing) design is very different.

As you mentioned with the apparent impact on supersonic performance, and questionable early engine stats in general - has anyone heard a single peep about this achieving super cruise? I know it was always supposed to, but I literally haven't even heard the term brought up.


Also for OT,
Analysis Putin's Newest Stealth Fighters Are Nonoperational. So Why Deploy Them to Syria?
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/russia-s-stealth-fighters-in-syria-are-putin-s-election-gimmick-1.5847755

Media coverage is getting a little better - but basically what we all initially thought.

It's actually a surprisingly well-written article with some nice tidbits. :)
Image

Such a "Russian" thing to do though - to yank almost half of your testing fleet out of (what you'd hope would be) a VERY tightly-organized flight test and eval program, only to have them sitting in the middle of nowhere away from your facilities and engineers for who knows how long? Sigh..
 
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Slug71
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:25 pm

You have have to keep in mind that the SU-57 has LEVCONS forward of the inlets which basically act as canards. The design of the inlets is probably a workaround of that and therefore not optimal. The F-22 is also a air superiority fighter and stealth was/is a priority. The SU-57 on the other hand is a multi-role fighter and stealth was intentionally sacrificed for performance. It is rumoured to be able to supercruise at 2000km/h and it will also carry a lot of advanced weaponry. We know that the engine covers, nozzles and engines themselves will be updated. I expect a lot of the small access panels seen around the aircraft will likely disappear on the production frames too. The russians are known to update/improve their frames through the test/development cycles. Thats just how they work. Having said all that, the biggest unchanged discrepancy I see right now is the tips of the wing and horizontal stabilizers which have very different profiles. Those engineers know a lot more than I do though, so maybe it doesn't make much difference in the real world. But I do find it odd.
 
estorilm
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:58 pm

Slug71 wrote:
You have have to keep in mind that the SU-57 has LEVCONS forward of the inlets which basically act as canards. The design of the inlets is probably a workaround of that and therefore not optimal. The F-22 is also a air superiority fighter and stealth was/is a priority. The SU-57 on the other hand is a multi-role fighter and stealth was intentionally sacrificed for performance. It is rumoured to be able to supercruise at 2000km/h and it will also carry a lot of advanced weaponry. We know that the engine covers, nozzles and engines themselves will be updated. I expect a lot of the small access panels seen around the aircraft will likely disappear on the production frames too. The russians are known to update/improve their frames through the test/development cycles. Thats just how they work. Having said all that, the biggest unchanged discrepancy I see right now is the tips of the wing and horizontal stabilizers which have very different profiles. Those engineers know a lot more than I do though, so maybe it doesn't make much difference in the real world. But I do find it odd.

I tend to overlook those as there isn't much information about them in practice, but yes in that picture you can see they're a movable control surface which I forget about... weird.

One quick note I just realized is that they appear to dramatically decrease the visibility of the pilot, along with the raised area leading into the rear of the canopy. I didn't think about it till now, but the frontal shots I posted above show a huge difference in visibility and blind spots between the two aircraft. Can't be sure from that angle, but I'd imagine you're mostly looking at the LEVCONS and wing when looking sideways/down.

The weapons storage of the T-50 does appear impressive, though at the huge sacrifice of being unable to blend the engines into a stealth belly. Likewise the outboard wing weapons bays by any definition can't really be stealthy.

Maybe I'll just call it a 4.5th gen F/A type design, which it will probably perform very well (they have a massive requirement for a smaller modern ground attack platform) ;) Though what one needs 3D vectored thrust for in a large airframe with inferior stealth when most hypothetical future advanced combatants will be F-35/F-22 BVR engagements is totally beyond my comprehension.

Anything incapable of advanced BVR engagement (like legacy aircraft in Syrian campaign or similar they're facing out there) can easily be downed by their current 4th gen aircraft and weapons anyways, which are very effective in such conflicts.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:24 pm

estorilm wrote:
Though what one needs 3D vectored thrust for in a large airframe with inferior stealth when most hypothetical future advanced combatants will be F-35/F-22 BVR engagements is totally beyond my comprehension.


Maneuverability can still help you dodge AAM's and SAM's even if launched beyond visible range.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Slug71
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:59 pm

estorilm wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
You have have to keep in mind that the SU-57 has LEVCONS forward of the inlets which basically act as canards. The design of the inlets is probably a workaround of that and therefore not optimal. The F-22 is also a air superiority fighter and stealth was/is a priority. The SU-57 on the other hand is a multi-role fighter and stealth was intentionally sacrificed for performance. It is rumoured to be able to supercruise at 2000km/h and it will also carry a lot of advanced weaponry. We know that the engine covers, nozzles and engines themselves will be updated. I expect a lot of the small access panels seen around the aircraft will likely disappear on the production frames too. The russians are known to update/improve their frames through the test/development cycles. Thats just how they work. Having said all that, the biggest unchanged discrepancy I see right now is the tips of the wing and horizontal stabilizers which have very different profiles. Those engineers know a lot more than I do though, so maybe it doesn't make much difference in the real world. But I do find it odd.

I tend to overlook those as there isn't much information about them in practice, but yes in that picture you can see they're a movable control surface which I forget about... weird.

One quick note I just realized is that they appear to dramatically decrease the visibility of the pilot, along with the raised area leading into the rear of the canopy. I didn't think about it till now, but the frontal shots I posted above show a huge difference in visibility and blind spots between the two aircraft. Can't be sure from that angle, but I'd imagine you're mostly looking at the LEVCONS and wing when looking sideways/down.

The weapons storage of the T-50 does appear impressive, though at the huge sacrifice of being unable to blend the engines into a stealth belly. Likewise the outboard wing weapons bays by any definition can't really be stealthy.

Maybe I'll just call it a 4.5th gen F/A type design, which it will probably perform very well (they have a massive requirement for a smaller modern ground attack platform) ;) Though what one needs 3D vectored thrust for in a large airframe with inferior stealth when most hypothetical future advanced combatants will be F-35/F-22 BVR engagements is totally beyond my comprehension.

Anything incapable of advanced BVR engagement (like legacy aircraft in Syrian campaign or similar they're facing out there) can easily be downed by their current 4th gen aircraft and weapons anyways, which are very effective in such conflicts.


Not sure how much visibility will be hindered by the LEVCONS, but it's probably not as much of an issue today with the radar and weapons themselves doing most of the work in that department. Most weapons systems now are fire and forget. The SU-57 N-036 radar is supposed to be very capable once fully implemented and will definitely be capable of BVR engagements.

I suppose the outboard weapon bay will probably be more stealthy than having an exposed missile hanging from there too. That article you linked also misses that the aircraft will have under-wing pylons to hang additional weapons, just like the F-35 and F-22. If you google "SU-57" and go to the "Images" tab, you'll see some pictures of it with external weapons and fuel tanks under the wing.

Heres a nice artist(by Dr.Snufflebug) rendition on another forum of a production SU-57 with the Izd.30 engines,

Image
 
Scorpius
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:43 pm

estorilm wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
estorilm wrote:
From a skin boundary-layer issue POV, why did Sukhoi need the separation from the wing areas as well?


Either way you slice it, if you stare at the two aircraft long enough, you realize countless examples of just how many shortcuts Sukhoi was forced to take with the design versus the F-22.

It's clean - for a Russian aircraft - but still has random bits and pieces all over, the fairings for the control surfaces are huge, etc. Plus I know this is a first gen engine photo, but those circular engine housings are just... no bueno.


It's not clear why you're always comparing the T-50 to the F-22 if these aircraft even have different application concepts. For some reason, you pay attention to the influx and shape of the bonnets, although in fact the value for stealth is determined not visually, but by the results of calculations. Do you think Sukhoi's supercomputers are less powerful than those that considered the F-22? Is it serious? These planes are different because they represent two different schools, two different approaches to solving the problems of creating fifth-generation aircraft. And believe me, compared to the F-22, the T-50 has many advantages. Banal at least because it is designed for 15 years later. And specific advantages or disadvantages can be determined only after prolonged operation and combat use.


You're not really contributing anything to the conversation here - just complaining that I bothered to make the comparison in the first place.

Your logic is that because it was designed 15 years later, it must be superior, or that their computers must be more powerful 15 years later. Not sure about you, but no - I'm actually not sure of that. The computing power may be irrelevant - actual software models and knowledge of stealth technology in general, which yes.. at the time of the T-50's initiation was AT LEAST 15 years behind that of most top-level US contractors, probably makes a huge difference, especially with the insane amount of funding that was poured into the Lockheed program. Not to mention engine design constraints which are WELL KNOWN to be at least 10-15+ years behind those of US contractors - which has a massive impact on what designers are able to do with the overall platform.

Explain to me then, Sukhois "supercomputers" came up with the ingenious idea to slap a bunch of conventional vent panels on the bottom and side planes of the inlet ducts as well? Perfect reflectors? And round housings.. and big wing weapons bays? 3D vector round metal turkey feather exhaust? You must be completely blind to imply that there aren't just small stealth issues with the aircraft, but MASSIVE fundamental discrepancies here. Even if these are prototype issues, the F-22 external layout and design was solidified by first flight (because they had already performed extensive RCS testing on the most advanced radar scanning platforms and buildings in the world.) Raptor 001 prototype looked nearly identical to the last full-rate production version ever received by USAF.

...and yes, I bring it up because all the mainstream media, forums, etc seem to be intent on blindly calling this aircraft a US 5th-gen-killer, and from a technical approach I'm not seeing it at all.

I'm not even sure I've come to the right conclusions here, I'm just genuinely curious and would like to start an actual dialogue about the technical details involved, and why or why not the issues I'm bringing up may or may not be relevant. If you could actually address them specifically and show me what my conclusions are incorrect, I'd happily acknowledge being wrong.


I initially pointed out to you that these aircraft imply different concepts of application. In the case of the T-50, emphasis is placed on better aerodynamic qualities to the detriment of stealth technology. Have you seen the aerobatics on the T-50? And I saw, with the eyes on the last MAKS. About the superiority of the United States in engines and computer equipment - you are here in error. First of all, I will point out to you the fact that the targeting system in the direction of the pilot's view, for example, appeared in Russia earlier than in the United States. And regarding the engine of the American contractors, all is not so rosy. For example, the us does not yet have full-fledged engines with all-range deviation of the thrust vector. Yes, and in the development of the F-35, for example, using advances in technology used on the Yak-141, but it's still the eighties.
So in general, comparing the T-50 and F-22 is highly incorrect. If the F - 22 is made with an emphasis on stealth-the T-50 was developed as a hunter for the F-22. Everything else, both of these aircraft-just the first attempt to create a new generation of aircraft, so that they both have certain disadvantages that will be eliminated for another 10-15 years on the basis of operation and combat use.
 
Ozair
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:08 am

Scorpius wrote:
I initially pointed out to you that these aircraft imply different concepts of application. In the case of the T-50, emphasis is placed on better aerodynamic qualities to the detriment of stealth technology. Have you seen the aerobatics on the T-50?

The T-50 hasn’t exhibited anything in aerodynamic qualities that we haven’t seen from Flankers, Raptors or SH previously.

Scorpius wrote:
About the superiority of the United States in engines and computer equipment - you are here in error. First of all, I will point out to you the fact that the targeting system in the direction of the pilot's view, for example, appeared in Russia earlier than in the United States.

You mean the IRST? These sensors were present in US century series aircraft in the 50s and early 60s. Even today IRSTs do not replace the radar as the primary sensor and are unlikely to in the future.

On the F-35 the IRST is integrated with the EOTS targeting pod and this implementation has been copied by the Chinese for the J-20. The location and functionality of the IRST on the T-50 appears to be a legacy fitting from the Flanker.

Scorpius wrote:
And regarding the engine of the American contractors, all is not so rosy. For example, the us does not yet have full-fledged engines with all-range deviation of the thrust vector. In almost all cases the limitations outweigh the benefits.

The US has an excellent understanding of both the benefits and limitations that occur with 3D nozzles. They have already tested these features through the 80s and 90s.

Scorpius wrote:
Yes, and in the development of the F-35, for example, using advances in technology used on the Yak-141, but it's still the eighties.

You go to great pains to claim that Soviet/Russian aircraft are not copies of western designs and yet then make claims like this?

A simple review of the actual technology used in the F-35B would allow you to understand both where that technology came from and the differences between it and the YAK-141.

Scorpius wrote:
So in general, comparing the T-50 and F-22 is highly incorrect. If the F - 22 is made with an emphasis on stealth-the T-50 was developed as a hunter for the F-22.

If that is the intent then it is flawed logic. How does a hunter find a target when it can’t see the target?
 
WIederling
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:02 pm

Just to keep the discussion interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_ ... h_Lockheed
Murphy is an optimist
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:41 pm

jupiter2 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Here's a front line assessment on the F-up by the Russian backed forces:
http://www.newsweek.com/total-f-russian ... ens-818073

Tugg


Geeze, that is the most tragic thing I've read in a long time. The Russians weren't prepared at all.


The thing is though, it was the Russian mercenaries who attacked the stronghold that the Americans where at with the Kurdish forces and it would appear to have been with the approval of the Kremlin, at least according to an article similar to the attached one. What the hell did they expect them to do, step aside and let the Russians/Syrians through ? The loss of life is lamentable, but it must solely lay at the feet at whoever decided this was a good idea to test the resolve of the American forces there. Wagner, who the Russians were working for has deep roots in the Kremlin, so ultimately it would appear that the Kremlin authorised this and is now distancing themselves from it. While being a mercenary is a poor career choice, these guys who were doing what they were told to do by their boss (Wagner/Kremlin) appear to have been lambs to the slaughter. While I can't blame anyone else for these guys poor choice of career, I do feel sorry for them and their loved ones and the lack of respect being shown to these men for 1) being sent to do this ridiculous attack and 2) the lack of acknowledgement of the sacrifice these guys ultimately made.

It is shameful, but then the whole situation in Syria would be farcical, if it wasn't for the fact of the innocent people being killed everyday. It is still beyond my own belief how any government/armed forces can attack and kill their own citizens and to be doing it for years.


Yes, I agree. That's what made this so tragic. The Kremlin used the Wagner mercs to attack an American stronghold, and the Yanks responded in Mattis-style. Kill'em all - with heavy artillery and air power including helicopter gunships and jets. It was the right military response, which the Russians should have expected. Instead, they were just like you said, "lambs for slaughter". Reading the desperation in the communications from the Russians was painful, and I think it would be for anyone who's even slightly familiar with battlefield conditions. I'm not blaming the Americans at all, it was definately the right response. I just feel for the soldiers at the receiving end of all that firepower. It was Armageddon.
 
WIederling
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:01 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I just feel for the soldiers at the receiving end of all that firepower. It was Armageddon.


My guess is that this will be brought against the US when they lament SDF forces being exterminated^H shot at ( and killed ).

We've now seen two or three "loss leader" moves by the RF that had some dire consequences including reorientation
in slow motion. ( First one being the Turkish shoot down .. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Slug71
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:37 pm

Ozair wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I initially pointed out to you that these aircraft imply different concepts of application. In the case of the T-50, emphasis is placed on better aerodynamic qualities to the detriment of stealth technology. Have you seen the aerobatics on the T-50?

The T-50 hasn’t exhibited anything in aerodynamic qualities that we haven’t seen from Flankers, Raptors or SH previously.


To be fair, the Flankers and SU-57 is a lot more maneuverable than the Raptor or SH. It's true that Sukhoi sacrificed some stealth for maneuverability.

Ozair wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
So in general, comparing the T-50 and F-22 is highly incorrect. If the F - 22 is made with an emphasis on stealth-the T-50 was developed as a hunter for the F-22.

If that is the intent then it is flawed logic. How does a hunter find a target when it can’t see the target?


The SU-57's senor suite IS *supposed* to be able to track the F-22.
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2642
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Re: 2x Russian SU-57 PAK-FA show up in Syria

Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:51 pm

Scorpius wrote:
And regarding the engine of the American contractors, all is not so rosy. For example, the us does not yet have full-fledged engines with all-range deviation of the thrust vector. Yes, and in the development of the F-35, for example, using advances in technology used on the Yak-141, but it's still the eighties.


What exactly do you consider a "all range"? The Su-57 nozzle only moves in one axis, but since that axis is tilted relative to both the horizontal and vertical planes, it can be used to achieve differential thrust vectoring. So, a "true" 3D nozzle is not fitted to it. You can see here on the Su-30, it is the same thing. They only move in one direction, but at an angle.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1 ... 8a50fa5d-c

By the way, the USA first used thrust vectoring in the 80s. True, Russia developed the technology further on the Su-57, but at the cost of stealth. Tell me, what are those aerobatics you saw going to help when you are fighting an aircraft 50 miles away?

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