9A-CRO
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US Grudge Against Cuba

Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:22 pm

why does US goverment have such grudge against Fidel Castro government - they are acting really irrational - what do they have against Fidel???
for example that idiotic law to punish all companies (even foreign) that trade with Cuba

VIVA FIDEL
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
Accidentally
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 2:30 am

Cuba set up nuclear missles pointing towards the US. And threatened to start some nuclear war with us. I think Russia was part of this...I'm not certain if they were the U.S.S.R then tho...
Indianapolis, IN
 
USAirways737
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 2:50 am

Actually the USSR put the missiles there but Cuba let them. I just saw part of "Thirteen Days" which is about the Cuban Missile Crisis. It is a great movie. There is also a special on MSNBC tonight about the Cuban Missile Crisis at 10/9C. I think the US has all the right in the world for not allowing trade between the two countries after Cuba almost allowing WWlll to start.
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 3:53 am

>VIVA FIDEL

How immature.

Of course the USA has a right to have the embargo- our history with Cuba since Fidel Castro took over and appointed himself dictator should affirm that.

Your immaturity and ignorance is really starting to annoy me.
 
cfalk
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:08 am

If I recall my history, while Castro was fighting a guerrilla war against Batista, himself a tin-pot dictator, the U.S. supported Castro with arms and training, as Castro said that he would establish a western-style democracy once Batista was overthrown. Once Castro gained power, he showed his true stripes, not only by kicking out his American supporters, but inviting the Soviets in and even allowing them to bring in ballistic missiles to aim at his former ally.

It was for that bit of back-stabbing treachery that an embargo was put on the island.

The only reason the embargo is still in place is that lowering it now would be regarded by the mobs as an admission of defeat. It should have been lowered years ago. Castro knows that he would last no more than a few years if the embargo was lifted, as the influx of business and tourism from only 90 miles away would quickly show the Cubans that they had been treated like mushrooms for the past 40 years - kept in the dark and fed bullshit. The embargo is the best thing to have happened to Castro, as it gives him someone else to blame his country's problems on.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
LH423
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:43 am

No Cfalk, the US never supported Castro or his guerrillas. We supported Batista for the same reason we supported the Shah in Iran. Batista kept most of Cuba poor, while cosying up to the US government by essentially allowing US companies into Cuba without restriction, giving the access to cheap labour, which they exploited, and lots of resources, which they abused without care, leaving little for the Cuban public. Although I don't agree with Castro's position, and I find it silly that he still invokes the spirit of "la revolución." However, I can see his need to try and turn Cuba around. Yes, he did promise to turn Cuba around, and it appeared Cuba was going to improve. Then he turned it Communist, and alienated his potentially biggest ally, the US. Instead he teamed up with the Russians, and look where that got him. 11 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Cuba is piss poor, and their biggest ally, the USSR, no longer exist. The remnants of the USSR are but a weak piece of the puzzle that made that nation the powerhouse it was.

I believe in political and economic sanctions to a point. I believe that these sanctions have been going on long enough, and 40 years in, I think it's time for a thawing of relations between the United States and Cuba. I don't think I'll ever understand America's fear of Communism. Although I don't believe in Communism, I don't believe the US should alienate a neighbour simply because of their political policies.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
DG_pilot
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:44 am

"""Although I don't believe in Communism, I don't believe the US should alienate a neighbour simply because of their political policies."""

When that country and its 'political policies' threaten my country and its national security, I believe in taking appropriate action. I believe the U.S. did the right thing.

-Dustin
 
cfalk
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:48 am

LH423,

Actually, we both got it slightly wrong (Admittedly, me more than you  ).

Quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica :

"The corruption of the Batista government led the United States to withdraw all support. Castro had come to power with the support of most Cuban city dwellers on the basis of his promises to restore the 1940 constitution, create an honest administration, reinstate full civil and political liberties, and undertake moderate reforms. But once established as Cuba's leader he began to pursue more radical policies: Cuba's private commerce and industry were nationalized; sweeping land reforms were instituted; and American businesses and agricultural estates were expropriated. The United States was alienated by these policies and offended by Castro's fiery new anti-American rhetoric. His trade agreement with the Soviet Union in February 1960 further deepened American distrust. In 1960 most economic ties between Cuba and the United States were severed, and the United States broke diplomatic relations with the island nation in January 1961. "

So I was wrong in that the U.S. actively aided Castro, but they refused to support Batista and let him topple, believing Castro's rhetoric.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
LH423
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:58 am

Yes, but that was almost 30 years ago. Forget the US, do you realize that if Russia had begun nuclear war on the US, they were beginning war on the entire world. Do you not realize that 4-100 megatonne blasts on the US would be enough to kill every person in North America and Western Europe, and cause severe damage in Asia, not only through the blasts, but through the fallout? That's it...kaput. Just the rubble and cockroaches!!! Then again, we could have just blown Moscow sky-high from all our weapons we had stocked on the USSR-Turkey border. Did you not know that the only reason the USSR put weapons in Cuba was because we were putting them in Turkey? Well we did, and that's why the USSR sent weapons to Cuba.

All I'm saying is that this was 30 years ago. Cuba is defenceless! They lost their ally in Europe. OUR CIA doesn't even consider then a threat to national security. Do you see Castro hurting from these sanctions? No! The Cuban people are the only ones who do, and that's why they flee Cuba in rickety rafts every day in hopes of reaching the US. It's time to end the embargo, and normalize relations with Cuba.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
cfalk
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:24 am

Remember that in the 50's and 60's, nuclear war was considered not only survivable, but inevitable by a lot of people. Nukes were considered just really powerful artillery.

As for your second point, I agree, and said so in my first post. The embargo keeps the island under Castro.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:14 am

>Do you see Castro hurting from these sanctions? No!

I believe the reason for these sanctions is to hurt (maybe not hurt but you get the idea) the Cuban people and, thus, create internal unrest to hopefully make the people revolt against their dictator. I don't think they are in place to directly hurt Castro himself, rather indirectly.
 
LH423
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 12:42 pm

N766AS:Sanctions have been in effect for almost 40 years. In that time has there been any real civil unrest? No, because Fidel has an iron fist on the country, and the Cuban public is too poor to create any unrest, and they would be crushed. Also, to them, it's not worth uprising, possibly failing, and at the same time, not having any help from their powerful neighbour from the north. The sanctions are obsolete, and all they are doing is keeping a country poor. Cuba is renowned for its beautiful scenery and beaches. Do you realize what would happen to Cuba if it was opened up for American tourism? The nation's ecomony would skyrocket. There just becomes a point where the US is going to have to accept that the sanctions didn't work. 40 years on, Castro is still in control, and the Cuban people are poor. What's the point?

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 2:14 pm

>The nation's ecomony would skyrocket

Just what we want- our commie neighbors to the south suddenly are blessed with a booming economy. No- until Castro is out, sanctions against Cuba shall not be lifted.

>In that time has there been any real civil unrest? No, because Fidel has an iron fist on the country, and the Cuban public is too poor to create any unrest, and they would be crushed

Sure- there was unrest in the beginning of his dictatorship.
Why are they poor? Because of Castro they are poor. So why should we give into this communist dictator because he has let his people suffer?! Whats the point?
 
9A-CRO
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 4:59 pm

OK US guys - you want to puniosh your companies trading with Cuba - do it - but do not try this on international companies - you are not emperors of the world
if some country put embargo on Coca-Cola and fine company you would propably launch airstikes  

and as LH423 said - US companies seeked cheap labour in Cuba and therefore exploiting country
aand this wouldn't make them rich - they would stay poor but without social security such as education, health care etc.

yes they maybe let USSR to point nukes at you, but as LH423 said it was todefend USSR from missiles in Turkey and West Europe -
so you are actually trying to say that you can threat another country but god forbid if that other country tried to defend

and before Castro - one of most influental groups of tourist on Cuba were mafia guys from USA

if there weren't Castro CUba would propably become US dominion (colony)
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
9A-CRO
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:02 pm

N776AS '
N766AS - the reason for which I admire Fidel is that he one of very few wolrd leaders that has guts to say NO to USA
(and BTW. I know some people who have met him in person and they say that he is a very pleasant guy),
(and he wears high heels in order to look higher  

and BTW - if US supported Fidel he propably would not
turn to USSR

I watched documentary about Vietnam war - US could have avoided Ho Chi Min converting Vietnam to communistic country if they accepted Vietnam as a country an then Ho Chi Min wouldn't have to turn to Moscow (of course this would involve some US-France problems but there wouldn't be Vietnam war)
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
cfalk
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Tue Jan 16, 2001 9:20 pm

9A-CRO,

While I agree about Vietnam, I don't agree about Castro.

Yes, Ho Chi Minh asked for help from the USA after WWII, assuming that as a former colony itself, the U.S. would have a natural affinity for helping a country win independence. However, the U.S. was trying to woo France into joining NATO at the time, and felt that France was more important. In fact, the French ended up asking the U.S. to help with their Vietnam problem, which started U.S. involvement there, and ended up pulling out of Vietnam themselves, leaving the U.S. stuck there, and not joining NATO anyway. The U.S. really got suckered into Vietnam, and it snowballed.

Castro is only interested in his own power. Just like Saddam, he is willing to see his country go into the crapper as long as he stays in power. If he really cared for his country, he would have resigned long ago, let a new administration come in untarnished by the past, and rebuild Cuba's international relations.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
747-451
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N766AS

Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:27 am

I agree..."If there was yourism, their economy would skyrocket"... yeah like in Atlantic City, N.J. (where you have a strip of hotels on the beach doing very,very well and the rest of the city is a complete slum...so much for prosperity.)

Castro makes his people poor with his antiquated utopianism policies.

Also "batista" let US interests take over"/"Batista was a US puppet" or some BS like that someone posted. Sure Catro got rid of US interests, so instead of banana's and hotes all they got were missles and bombs and Castro was is a "pupet of the communists"...Without the healthy "stipends" from theUSSR poverty is even worse.

Don't forget, Castro as a "communist puppet" aslo sponsors the spreading of communism and destabilzation of the region.

-451
 
Greeneyes53787
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 7:42 am

Our hatred for Cuba is as irrational as our great love affair with Kennedy. JFK was not that wonderful and Cuba was not that terrible.

Cuba never wanted the tactical or strategic Nuclear missles there anyway. The Russians imposed their will on Cuba- although Castro liked the support. Today the harder we try to impose democracy on them the more they resist it. Further, to impose our system on anybody is a statement against democracy- in a way. No matter what government they have I think we can trade with them if they aren't beating up on their own people and things like that.

Cuba used to be a great place to gamble. Nixon frequented that place until JFK made Americans hate Cubans.

Greeeneyes
 
LH423
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 8:59 am

747-451 said:...yeah like in Atlantic City, N.J. (where you have a strip of hotels on the beach doing very,very well and the rest of the city is a complete slum...so much for prosperity.)

Look at the rest of the Caribbean. We have perfectly fine trade and tourism. You don't see Aruba or St. Maarten looking like Atlantic City, do you? No, because Atlantic City reflects the people that go there. I'm not trying to be an elitist snob, but it doesn't take much money for Joe Shmo from Paramus to take a drive down the Garden State Turnpike and get a cheap thrill in Atlantic City. However, it takes money for Mr. and Mrs. Smith from Tarrytown to organize and take the dream trip to the Caribbean, and they will spend some money while there. I think other islands are perfect examples of what a little American tourism can do. And believe me, the Cuban's hate Fidel, they just have no means of getting rid of him.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
IndianGuy
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:48 pm

We see this everwhere. As long as as the despotic and staunchly pro-American Shah of Iran was in power in Iran, Iran was one of the "good" countries. But as soon as a democratic regime inimical to the US came up there, Iran is described as "EVIL". Ditto for Cuba.

It is the embargo, and not just Castro's policies that have starved Cuba and kept it backward. The International Community must take steps to end the evil embargo.
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:53 pm

IndianGuy, explain to me how Cuba is a "democratic regime inimical to the US"?
Is this the same Communist Cuba that I am aware of?
Regime, yes. Inimical, yes. Democratic, no- definately not.
 
Pbb152
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 5:13 pm

Here we go again! Yes, we here in the U.S. and our government representatives are all evil! It is so easy for people from Australia, India, and Croatia, whose governments don't take a stand or a risk for anything or anyone, to question us. Believe it or not, this planet is in need of someone to police the world. Look at the Gulf War. Saddam Hussein somehow thought he and Iraq had "Imminent Domain" over Kuwait. He was nothing but a bully trying to steal land and oil that was not his. If it wasn't for the U.S. involvement, what would have happened? Their were 33 U.N. countries representing the Allied Forces in Desert Storm with upwards of 600,000 troops. 500,000 of those troops were from the U.S.A. We put a hell of a lot more lives, weapons, and reputation on the line than anyone else. That is evidenced by the fact that Saddam Hussein still blames George Bush for the Gulf War. Were we evil when we liberated Kuwait? Many people still say yes because Iraq is still under U.N sanctions. I would counter that Iraq and Suddam Hussein would probably occupy not only Kuwait, but would have invaded Saudi Arabia by now resulting in an even greater world crisis if we did not get involved. Like it or not, the U.S. took the stand, and everybody else followed. So we become evil because we take the necessary risks to maintain peace throughout the Middle East. It is the same thing with Cuba. Do you really think Fidel Castro is a saviour for the Cuban populace? Hell no he isn't. He is a stubborn Communist dictator who has total control over his people. He doesn't care about you people in Croatia, or anyone else who doesn't have a hand in the downfall of the U.S. and democracy. You are just plain ignorant if you think he does! If Fidel is such a great guy, why do hundreds or thousands of Cubans try to flee Cuba for the U.S. every month? I would think these Cuban citizens know Castro and his ways much better than a teenager from Croatia. You can hate the U.S. all you want chump! But, you know in times of need, you will call on us. And we'll be there!


Pete
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 5:37 pm

Pbb152,

"""Here we go again! Yes, we here in the U.S. and our government representatives are all evil! It is so easy for people from Australia, India, and Croatia, whose governments don't take a stand or a risk for anything or anyone, to question us."""

I don't see any Australians on this thread questioning the US's stance against Cuba.

Second of all, you ignorant git, what makes you think that Australia has not taken a stand against such things? I will let Brissie, if he can be bothered, to decry you further. But let it be said that many Americans on this forum will not take any criticism of their nation whatsoever. Regardless of proof or otherwise. It is getting to the point where member from other nations are chiming in and American bashing. Whilst you have citizens of your country posting ridiculous zenophobic posts to this forum you will find others of us who are far more educated and enlightened to what goes on in the world making educated and sometimes sarcastic or ruthless replies.

Cheers,


mb
 
Pbb152
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 7:19 pm

Is that supposed to scare me that you're going to sick Brissie Lions on me? You called me ignorant, so why don't you respond Mx5boy?

BTW---I will never be offended by criticism towards the U.S. that is justified. This thread however is not. I only brought the Aussies into it because often times you guys play the "holier than thou" role as if we do everything wrong as opposed to you Aussies. My point is that it is easy to say that if you yourselves never get involved until you're pulled into it. The leader will always be the one most criticized in the end!

Pete
 
9A-CRO
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 17, 2001 7:47 pm

why do many cubans go to USA -
counter question - why do Puertoricans got to USA (mainland), why do Mexican go to USA
and how do you actually think that Cuba could developed if it has trade embargo at it's natural trade partner
Castro propably isn't the best solution for Cuba but US puppet wouldn't be also

and about US tending to democracy in other countries - I believe it was CIA that brought dictator Augusto Pinochet in power in Chile

the only difference between him and Castro is that he was pro-US oriented (and killed more people, if I am not wrong)





and the only instituion that can have police power is UN (United NATIONS) not USA
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
sccutler
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This Is Great Fun!

Thu Jan 18, 2001 12:34 am

Some of us are getting a little bitchy here, aren't we?

Good old-fashioned capitalism is the best medicine. End the embargoes, watch Cuba flourish, watch the communist system wither and die.

Remarkably enough, there is a compelling affinity between Cuba and the USA. Allowed the opportunity, the two contries would forge strong bonds.

I still think Castro's offer to monitor and assist in the conduct of US elections is one of the best bits of ironic humor in years.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
LH423
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 3:17 am

Okay, of the three people showing their support for sanctions against Cuba, I note that only one, yes one, person was even alive during the Cuban Missile Crisis. according to the member profiles, 747-451 at the oldest in his age group was at the most 6 years in 1962. The other two people opposing relations with Cuba were born at the least 19 years after the Missile Crisis.

DG_Pilot and N766AS:I don't mean this in a mean tone, but what basis do you have for opposing relations with Cuba? Do you know some evil Cubans that are trying to overthrow the US government? My guess is that you are only mirroring your family's sentiment.

Pbb152:I don't think anyone is calling Fidel Castro as a person into question. Most of the world realizes he is scum of the Earth, and personally I would rather see him rot in hell, however, we don't get everything we wish for. I do believe that it is time to end the embargo with Cuba.

Also, to back up what I said earlier about tourism helping countries, I would like to change the subject a bit and ask 9A-CRO the changes he's noticed in Croatia since their independence and reform towards a democracy. I have friends in Austria who love going to Croatia to enjoy the beaches. Has increased tourism from Western European countries helped Croatia's economy? My guess is yes, and I could speculate all I want, but why not ask you and get the facts straight.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
9A-CRO
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 4:09 am

LH 423 question - I am not quite sure what is the purpose of your question - tourism existed before the break-up of Yugoslavia, and unfortunately there are now fewer tourist than before (which is accountable to war)

living under communistic regime isn't so horrible as it is general impression in USA, of course there were quite many problems but some things are solved better than in capitalistic systems, then again that is whole new thread

and BTW - I believe that Cuba has developed tourism in the last few years (I don't know the exact figures),(but I think it is below the potential of the country)

BTW - were there many killings of political opponents by Castro regime??
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
LH423
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9A-CRO

Thu Jan 18, 2001 4:54 am

I realize tourism existed before the break-up of Yugoslavia, but I was under the impression that tourism had increased in the 10 years since. I have spoken to many people who love Croatia, and I have thought of travelling there at some point, although I'm unsure when. I have met a few Yugoslavians and they were very nice, and even told me I should visit Yugoslavia (this being just a few months after the bombing ended). I do look forward to visiting there some day. I guess I received mis-information.

There is some tourism to Cuba. Largely the Russians who can afford to travel that far abroad and want a piece of familiarity   Just kidding, although Russians do visit there, along with British and French tourists. I hear Canadian tourism is on the rise too. Most of these traveller's are people who are looking for a)cheap, and b) a little adventure, and to say they've been to Cuba. With the opening of tourism to Americans, Cuba could be marketed as a destination for those really wanting to get away from it all now. Cuba has potential, and the embargo holds them back. What is it we fear? Communism? Why? It's different, and that frightens us. I'm not a Communist, but I ask Americans here to look beyond that and see the nation behind it. Castro is an A-S-S, but it doesn't mean that every Cuban should suffer because of him.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
747-451
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LH423

Thu Jan 18, 2001 7:11 am

I was born in 1963. But I read many books aout it, not only US "propoganda"   but articles and books from Europe and South America. In college, we spoke about Cuba in seveal economics classes.

Age isn't relative here, really....

I agree with you about tourism, for sure. Atlantic City is a Dump off the strip; and why excactly would people go to run down cuba when they could go to Bermuda, St. Maartens etc....Tourism isnt the answer.
 
747-451
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9A-CRO, LH423

Thu Jan 18, 2001 7:28 am

9ACRO,

Before you point fingers at the US for installing(?) pinochet, what about your former benafactor (USSR)installing corrupt and muderous spheres of influence as well (Angola, Vietnam, El Salvador amongst others.) Perhaps Cuba should do what yourselves have done, throw him out, and not wait for others to avcomplish that task and (pay the bills). Capitalism alone isn't undoing communism in China, even with all the investment from from Europe, Asia and the US.


LH423,
You're quote:
"Look at the rest of the Caribbean. We have perfectly fine trade and tourism. You don't see Aruba or St. Maarten looking like Atlantic City, do you? No, because Atlantic City reflects the people that go there. I'm not trying to be an elitist snob, but it doesn't take much money for Joe Shmo from Paramus to take a drive down the Garden State Turnpike and get a cheap thrill in Atlantic City. However, it takes money for Mr. and Mrs. Smith from Tarrytown to organize and take the dream trip to the Caribbean, and they will spend some money while there. I think other islands are perfect examples of what a little American tourism can do. And believe me, the Cuban's hate Fidel, they just have no means of getting rid of him."

I beg to differ on several points. The US is only a part of the success of the Carribean (since many hotels and resorts are owned by European concerns and there is such thing as the "NETHERLANDS" Antillies etc...). Europeans and Asians are in the mix as well. Don't forget, those retirees that you slam so ungraciously for going to Atlantic City are the same ones who go on cruises and fly to and spend money in the Carribean. AC is a toilet because throwing money at it isnt the problem (thats for another thread on a different forum). Secondly, because places like St. Maartens are so well developed and built up, what makes you think most people are going to want to go to Cuba (at least right away) until it is built up? BTW, I have seen my share of tour busses with Mass. license plates in Atlantic City. Some of the hotels rival those in the carribean for luxury, gambling and enetrtainment as well.

PS: The evil US is not the "natural" trade partner for Cuba. The whole world is. Who wantsd to be accused of "creating colonialism" again... blah blah blah......
 
LH423
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:17 am

747-451, I was merely stating that countries do better off with the US. I went to St. Kitts, an independent nation in the Caribbean. Even though many of these countries still have connections to European nations, American tourists bring in the majority of the money. Come to Boston and see how heavily advertised the Caribbean is on radio and TV, or go to the airport early on a Saturday morning and see the queues of charter planes headed to Aruba, Turks and Caicos, the Bahamas, etc. And this is just Boston, imagine all the New Yorkers, Philadelphians, etc who do the same thing. I'm not saying that opening the tourism doors will solve all of Cuba's problems, the only way that happens is when Castro is out, but I do think that we must pave the way now, so we can make a smoother transition later on when there is a new leader. Rome wasn't built in a day, so I don't know why the US thinks that relations with Cuba can be when Castro is out.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 1:23 pm

>I don't mean this in a mean tone, but what basis do you have for opposing relations with Cuba? Do you know some evil Cubans that are trying to overthrow the US government? My guess is that you are only mirroring your family's sentiment

Truly, I don't talk politics with my family at all.
My basis for opposing relations with Cuba has been stated quite a few times on this thread, and I don't feel like searching and cutting and pasting when anyone who can work a mouse can find it.  
When Castro is out, I'll reconsider.


Which brings up a thought. MI6 should send to Cuba a 00-agent with a license to kill- Fidel Castro. Then the Western Hemisphere would be a truly happy place.

 
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 2:28 pm

Are you advocating going against international law in your suggestion to kill an international head of state? Tut tut tut.

The Western Hemisphere is already a happy place. Cuba currently has cordial and diplomatic relations with every country in North America, Central America, South America and the Caribbean. All but one, America.
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 2:45 pm

My last paragraph was 100% faceousness, if you hadn't noticed  

OK, he has "cordial and diplomatic" relations with everyone else, so why does he need America? He doesn't, and the only way his nation will get America's recognition is when he dies.
 
9A-CRO
Crew
Topic Author
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 5:14 pm

747-451
it seems that is on of your posts you started with wrong information

USSR was not benefactor of Yugoslavia,
USSR and Yugoslavia broke they relations ie early fifties

Yugoslavia, along with Egypt, India and many other countries formed and independent block which was neither on Soviet or NATO side
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 18, 2001 5:40 pm

N766AS says:

"""Which brings up a thought. MI6 should send to Cuba a 00-agent with a license to kill- Fidel Castro. Then the Western Hemisphere would be a truly happy place."""

"""He doesn't, and the only way his nation will get America's recognition is when he dies."""


Tut tut tut No#2. That isn't very christian of you....


Cheers,


mb
 
747-451
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Brissie_Lions,9A-CRO

Fri Jan 19, 2001 12:45 am

Brissie_Lions,

I'm soooo happy that Cuba has such good relations with her neighbors, except the US. Let them pick up the tab; lest we becalled imperialists again blah blah blah. Everyone knows where to come with one hand reach out for aid, the other to slap in the face...

9A-CRO,

I stand corrected about Yugoslavia being a sattelite of the former USSR. (India and Egypt are subjects not to be broached here....)

But I do stand behind my statement that the former USSR sponsored it's share of despots, gennocide and terrorist states, Cuba being one of them. The US has made majopr mistakes, but, to borrow a quote from another forum, the one with no sins cast the first stone.....

 
IndianGuy
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Wed Jan 24, 2001 8:27 pm


explain to me how Cuba is a "democratic regime inimical to the US"?
Is this the same Communist Cuba that I am aware of?
Regime, yes. Inimical, yes. Democratic, no- definately not.

Cuba isnt democratic. But isnt Iran a democratic state? Very much so! The point i have been making is that America cares 2 hoots for democracy. Otherwise it wouldnt support military regimes in Burma and Pakistan.


Here we go again! Yes, we here in the U.S. and our government representatives are all evil! It is so easy for people from Australia, India, and Croatia, whose governments don't take a stand or a risk for anything or anyone, to question us


India does take stands on most issues, just like the US. But we dont believe in impinging the soveriegnty of other nations, just as we wouldnt allow ANYONE to even TRY to impinge on ours.

We have our constitution, but we also respect the right of other nations to have their own constitutions. We never say that our constitution is in some way superior to others and overrides the constitution of other nations. That my friend is the essential difference.

Respect for other countries right to existence is what America has to learn. It must accept that other countries also have a right to exist, and exist outside the American umbrella if that is what they desire.

But this is exactly what America has proved, and proved time and time again, that it incapable of doing.

Please remember, that INDIA IS THE LARGEST CONTRIBUTOR OF TROOPS TO UN PEACEKEEPING MISSIONS. (This record was current until India withdrew troops from Sierra Leone after differences with the Nigerian peacekeepers.) The pt that i am making is that India has been keeping its responsibilities to the world community like ever responsible democracy should. But India has never gone and done a Vietnam!

Get the point?

Infact no country (not even the Russians) have violated other countries to the extent that the US has. And the sanctions against Cuba, designed to bleed that country dry, are just an extension of this violation.
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 25, 2001 10:12 am

indianGuy the UN isnt everything man, most countries take it as a joke. Besides the security counsel controls everything. All of these peacekeeping missions are Clintons fault! What the heck is he doing spending peoples taxes in israel and bosnia! Those conflicts in Israel are there for 2000 yrs, its not like their going to go away during a short period of time. Now to Cuba, well the USSR pointed short/medium range missiles on cuba, castro let them and he didnt even object, infact he helped them. Castro killed many americans and has been a problem for a damn long time. What i dont get is why the USA puts up with cuba. Id just go in there and kill castro (i would NOT!!! kill the civilians and the infrastracture) just him and his communists. Egypt was a satelitte of the USSR an d india was too, if anyone objects (they were forced to buy Soviet military equipment). Egypt still has its ties with Russia and India just ordered 25 new type Su-xx. im not even gonna debate yugoslavia!!!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Thu Jan 25, 2001 5:06 pm

Buying arms from a country does not mean that the country automatically becomes a satellite state. India is the largest customer for Russian arms, but then India is also the largest customer for French arms industry! So is India a French satellite?

I cant speak about Egypt, but India was definitely never forced to buy Russian eqpt. The thing was that Russian weaponry was much cheaper than American weapons. Also the Russians were open to Co-production, and allowed India to build much of the weapons indegenously under license, which further reduced the cost. So the overwhelming facotr was cost.

True, The UN isnt everything. But it should be. The UN has the potential to be a major force for world peace. If only the yanks allowed that to happen!

They today only use the UN as a tool to bully states like Yugoslavia and Cuba.

Fidel Castro is an a***hole, but Pervez Musharraf is Allah incarnate himself! And Saddam has today become an a***hole, but there was a time when he was the toast at many Amrican White House parties. It wasnt Russia, China or India which gave him Weapons of Mass Destruction. It was American companies greedy for business. Check out the BBC programme on Saddam's nuclear programme.

That was the pt I have been making all along. That the US regime has only one grudge against Fidel. That he wont play ball with American policy makers. The whole fight has NOTHING to do with Democracy.

So why does the American Govt. lack the courage to say the truth? They are fooling nobody by using the democracy card anymore!

And why penalise Europe for wanting to do business with Cuba? Does Europe penalise American companies for doing business with Dictators?
 
747-451
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba/Indian Guy

Fri Jan 26, 2001 2:13 am

Please, it was not only US companies looking to get rich off of Iraq. It was the French and other European manufacturers/oil producers as well. The Osiraq reactor that was destroyed back in the 80's was of FRENCH sourcing and manufature. Don't forget that Shell, Elf Aquitaine, BP, Total etc all have(had) substantial oil and exploration & installations there as well. Secondly, Iraq has and did have ties to USSR; where did all those Illyushin's come from? Don't tell me they were cheaper or better than Airbus or Boeing. And it is historic record that Russian military "advisors" were part (as in Cuba) of Iraq's infrastructure. Get your facts in order please.

The UN is a corrupted toilet, and that has nothing to do with the US. It is an anti US/Europe monstrocity who's time has past. It is a corrupt money pit whose programs no longer work and an organization that has strayed from it's mission of being a mediator.

Yes, that's "correct" and our "right" not to do business with the communist murderer despot Castro. Just as India has a right to do what they please in the world arena, so does the US. It most certainly does have to do with democracy and civillian rights. Only primitive and cruel countries have supression of civil liberties, gulags, sponsorship of destabilization in Cuba's neighboring countries, re-education camps and supression of any kind of dissent.

I don't see the US "penalizing" anyone for doing business with Cuba or anyone else. If anyone should be penalized it is the French for "sneaky" assistance to hostile countries throught the "back door" by selling nuclear technology, Mirages etc as "appeasement" to fend (a rather pathetic attempt) off terrorism.

I stronlgly doubt that there are no "strings" attached to allowing India to bulid weaponry under "license"; since I doubt the Russians would allow precious secrets out of it's sphere of influence without something in return. I also would not act so "holier than thou" since cheap nukes are still nuclear weapons and having them doesn't make it right. It also makes India a Nuclear power--in the same boat(!!) as the US, UK etc. As the US has bad points in it's history (several very bad ones) so does India (war with Pakistan, middle age caste systems, supression of Women's rights,internal problems with Sikhs and Muslims etc), so no one is "innocent" here; not the US, not the Eurpoeans, not the Russians and certainly not India.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: B747-451

Fri Jan 26, 2001 3:09 am

Get your facts right. Russians didnt us sell any nukes. Nor did it sell much nuclear technology to India. It was Canada that helped India get the bomb.

And Pleease, why r u raising the issue of nukes here? The topic is about Cuba. I bought up Iraq and Iran to demonstrate that the US is not as interested in furthering the cause of democracy as it is in demolishing Castro.

I realise that it is highly PI (politically Incorrect) to defend Castro, but i am going to do it, as i feel the guy deserves it.

Sometimes, desperate situations call for desperate measures. If it werent for his draconian measures, Cuba would have descended into anarchy a long time ago. Perhaps that is EXACTLY what the American administration wants. Wither Castr does nothing and Cuba descends into anarchy, or Castro does something for Americans to vilify. Both ways they want to win!

And why has the situation become desperate? Because of the sanctions. How do u expect the lot of the Cubans to improve when their neighbour not only puts draconian sanctions but also bullies other countries to do so. I believe Canada is the latest to get a dose of this bullying?


Either you believe in Democracy or u dont. Either u believe in Human Rights or u dont. U can tdo things 2 ways. If u feel that sanctions should be imposed on Cuba because of it being undemocratic or because of Human rights violations, then how can u ignore China or Pakistan which are far worse on both counts?

Stop being hypocritical and stop being such a bully!
 
747-451
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RE: B747-451

Fri Jan 26, 2001 3:31 am

You have the gall to call me a bully? I am only answering your post with the same amount of poison and lack of objectivity you have towards the US. Stop reading "propoganda" and face facts. It is interesting whren the shoe is on the other foot and you are on the receiving end of "nasty" criticism, isn't it? I guess it must be upsetting to have your own posts and your own country bashed as the same way you have been guilty of. I have my facts straight and I know what I am dealing with.

Your constant bashing of the US is disgusting and regrettable...

Iraq and Iran are perfect allegories to why Castro must fall. Despotism and supression of rights are a common theme. So is holding on to power at all costs.Castro is not worthy of defense from any civilised country. He is a murderer and a despot. Yes, let Castro fail. Cuba would not fall into anarchy since the UN and others would assist, probably more so from some of the other Latin American Countires. Castro should be vilified for not only being a one time nuclear threat, but also for being inhuman for letting his country suffer. He should step down, since his policies are not working and hos country impoverished. He is too selfish to think of anything but himself and his power and he will immorally keep his people backward and isolated to do it.

The situation is desparate by Castro's own hand. secondly this is not exclusively a US problem, but a world problem. If other countries are so concerned for Cuban well being, let them pay the bill, as I said before the people who scream the loudest are the ones with one hand out for US aid and the other to slap our faces if they dont get what they want, lest we be called imperialists...

I do believe in "democracy" and that is why I spare no one any criticism, including my own country. Pakistan, China and others includng the US have there share of problems. But so does India like I have mentioned and her problems are just as bad as many others and in some cases worse than the US. And USSR may not have "sold nuclear technology to India, but they don't give it away for "nothing" either. And that is a fact.
 
polaris
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:27 am

A history question about the Missile Crisis:

When did the USSR install missiles in Cuba that were pointed at the US?

When did the US install missiles in Turkey that were pointed at the USSR?
 
747-451
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:34 am

Oh, It's only OK for the USSR to have missiles?
 
polaris
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:46 am

747-451: If the sarcasm was directed at me, then it was misplaced.

I am asking a couple of serious questions and am looking for legitimate, historical dates.
 
747-451
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba/Polaris

Fri Jan 26, 2001 7:15 am

Sorry!

If you read the last few posts, you see why I answered in a rash manner....


Anyway, here is a page for the Cuban Missile crisis(1962)

http://library.thinkquest.org/11046/

http://www.hpol.org/jfk/cuban/

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/forrel/cuba/cubamenu.htm

http://www.albany.edu/projren/1997_98/student_projects/museum/history/after/6069.htm#Cuban

a time line describing nuclear events including missiles in Turkey (1961)

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/fgregory/hist_atom.htm

747-451
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:02 am

umm indian guy, i never said india was a satelitte! READ what i wrote! i just said that they bought arms. If your talking bout the UN i strongly disagree, the UN should NOT be everything, it would be just another monopoly driven by one country. Polaris it seems as if u dont know your history about the missile crisis and the missiles at turkey, read something and learn.
 
Guest

RE: US Grudge Against Cuba

Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:47 am

>The UN isnt everything. But it should be.

Definately not...

>Iraq has and did have ties to USSR

Damn right!

An excerpt from Into the Storm by Tom Clancy and Gen. Franks (Ret.):

Soviet and Iraqi doctrine and practice, he reflected later, had many similarities. Although they had equipment from South Africa, Brazil, France, and elsewhere, the Iraqis were equipped mainly with Warsaw Pact equipment. In their behavior and in the way they laid out their defense and anticipated fighting a defensive battle, their behavior was profoundly Warsaw Pact. The Iraqis exercised very tight control. Everything they did was very, very rote. Every little thing had to go according to plan.

Later on he went to say:

The Iraqi army was different from Warsaw Pact countries in one major respect, however: in the brutal way they treated their own soldiers and the savage treatment of their own citizens. That was pure Iraqi.

The book is a good study into command of US and foreign armies...very insightful.

>The UN is a corrupted toilet, and that has nothing to do with the US. It is an anti US/Europe monstrocity who's time has past. It is a corrupt money pit whose programs no longer work and an organization that has strayed from it's mission of being a mediator.

I agree 110%, and on top of that, the US' membership in the United Nations is quite unConstitutional.

>If it werent for his draconian measures, Cuba would have descended into anarchy a long time ago.

Haha... I just have to laugh at that one....hahaha. You don't really know your history, do you? Or maybe you do, but this just came off the top of your head.

>Cuba because of it being undemocratic or because of Human rights violations, then how can u ignore China or Pakistan which are far worse on both counts?

I agree. We need to toughen up on both of the above nations. But the only thing holding us back is the liberals and moderates, in my opinion.

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