Matt D
Topic Author
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Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 4:35 am

I read an intersting story. Perhaps you have too. Apparently, the Sheriff of Maricopa County, AZ (Phoenix area) has set up a "different" kind of county prison. It lacks conventional cells made out of steel and concrete. Rather, the Sheriff has decided that the best way to run his jail would be to have all of the inmates live in outdoor tents-in the desert. Which means they are roasting in the summer, and freezing in the winter.
The article went on to say that in addition to the skimpy living quarters, the inmates are often fed stale, outdated, and even rotting food.
Here's the pieze de resitance:
All of the inmates are required to wear pink underwear. I had to read that statement over and over to make sure I got it right.

Most issues in life, I can take a definite stand on vis a vis my approval or disapproval of it.
This was one of those rare instances where I honestly don't know whether to cheer or boo.

Part of me says "Right on!!!" They are prisoners and deserve to be treated as such. Many of the inmates are there for comitting heinous crimes, and deserve to be treated in an equally cavalier manner.

But another side of me asks if this is really a prudent thing to do? Civil rights issues notwithstanding (and that is not the point of this topic-because regardless of the nature of the institution, I think that prisoners have few-if any rights.), is this really productive?
Exactly what is accomplished by treating them in such a demeaning and low manner? Won't that only serve to-for lack of explaining it a better way-piss them off even more? We are not just talking about guys here-we are talking about MEAN guys-with overinflated guy personas.
Case in point: When they finish serving their sentences, wouldn't they be likely to go out and commit some kind of atrocity-just out of vengeance to the jail they were in? Granted, successful rehabilitation of hardened criminals via any method is a real long shot at best. But treating them in a humiliating manner like I described, wouldn't that still FURTHER diminish the possibility of inmates becoming repeat criminals?
Or is that kind of treatment a deterrent to committing crime in the first place?

Please keep in mind, I am not debating the (il)legality of these methods. Frankly, if I thought they were illegal, this prison would've already been shut down.

How do you feel about this from an ethical standpoint?

Are the criminals getting what they deserve? Is being forced to eat rotten food and wear pink panties a reason to behave and not commit crimes in the first place?

Or is it counterproductive, and will accomplish little more than infuriating those who serve time there, certain to come out even more hardened than when they went in?

Whatever the case, be careful when going through Maricopa County!!!
 
TWFirst
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 4:43 am

>>Many of the inmates are there for comitting heinous crimes, and deserve to be treated in an equally cavalier manner. <<

Dude, this is some county pokey in BFE Arizona, not the state pen. Barney Fife here is digging the nationwide publicity he's getting for being Mr. Toughguy. This was the place where there was a death due to the overzealous prison guards using a government-issued stun gun (Sheriff Barney was one of the first to volunteer for the program) 43 times on a prisoner who was already incapacitated.


I don't think prison should be fun and games, but isn't prison supposed to be about rehabbing someone and preparing them to enter society again someday as a law-abiding citizen? I don't think humiliating them and making them more pissed off at the system is going to help.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 5:58 am

I second TWFirst's opinion.

What is the purpose behind doling out humiliation and degradation? What does it acheive?



"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 7:28 am

Humiliation and degredation or the threat there of are one of the reasons that keep poeple people from going there.

One of the big mistakes we ever made is when we switched from a "Penal" system to a "Corrections" system

Prison should be feared, and not be consdered a free ride.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 7:40 am

Humiliation and degredation or the threat there of are one of the reasons that keep poeple people from going there.

Dosen't seem to be having much of an effect. The US is incarcerating people in record numbers.

Oh, and before anyone suggests such conditions have an effect on re-imprisonment, a study commissioned by the office of Sheriff Joe Arpaio (the archetect of this little bit of paradise) and conducted by Arizona State University showed these conditions have had virtually no effect on whether ex-prisoners re-offend.
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
iflycoach
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 7:46 am

That's just the way the way it is in these parts of the world! Big grin

He also sells the underwear (not the same stuff the inmates wear) as a way to make money!

We also have chain gangs and when they work those they got B/W strippes for the outfits ( I thought I'd post that not sure if there are many other around)
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 8:35 am

I heard the Sheriff was providing this pink underwear from his own jock drawer at home!

This sheriff definitely needs to be shot, and the way he wants to treat these people is disgusting, and I would not be in the least bit surprised if one of them do "shank" him.

Can someone please comment on this statement:

"A person is sent to prison for punishment."
 
KROC
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 8:53 am

I think that what this guy is doing is great. like Brissie lions posted, "A person is sent to prison for punishment." America has to do something because what we are doing now, just isn't working. Prisoners are not being rehabilitated. They are coming out with free college degrees, and looking like body builders, but go right back to a life of crime. Prisoners are coddled in 2001. Every tree hugger is so concerned for these people, yet these prisoners would rob them just th same. Amen t this guy in AZ. Its about time.
 
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PanAm_DC10
Crew
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 9:56 am

Check out the sheriffs home page

http://www.mcso.org/

"Live jail webcam" oh dear
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:38 am

I didn't say that "A person is sent to jail for punishment". I asked for a comment on that statement.

The reason being is because the statement as I wrote it is FALSE.

A person is not sent to jail for punishment. They are sent to jail AS punishment.

Yes some people are guilty of the most heinous crimes, but in a society of human beings, we have to treat those people who are guilty of even the most sickening crimes as we would treat anyone else.

This means not giving them rotten food to eat, or to intentionally humiliate them.

Do you know how going to jail punishes a person?

FREEDOM

Nothing more, nothing less. The punishment is their FREEDOM!

Not being able to go out with friends.
Not being able to go to family functions.
Not being able to go for a walk when you want.
Not being able to go the footy.
Not being able to go to work.
Not being able to earn a living.
Not being able to celebrate your birthday with people you love.
Not being able to go to your brother's wedding.
Not being able to go on the holiday all your friends are taking.
etc, etc, etc.

People who talk about how pathetic the justice system being a "correctional" one and not a "penal" one....you are the type of people who should go and spend a month inside jail yourself and see what it is really like.

The majority of prisoners are poorly-educated and from low socio-economic backgrounds. They have not had many chances in life, have fallen into the wrong crowds, and done things which they may not have done if they had of had a good upbringing and all the opportunities a lot of people take for granted.

Yep, throw them in jail, treat them like scum, give them no assistance for personal advancement, and then throw them out on the street. Of course there is a chance they are going to re-offend if you do this.

The majority of people who go to jail come out of the system and make a life for themself. It is the minority for which those people talk about, when they talk of serial re-offenders.

As I said before, just because some people are guilty of heinous acts, does not mean we as a society have to stoop to their level when dealing with the punishment we as a society have for their acts.

But what would I know about anything right?
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:02 pm

Obviously the sheriff involved has some sort of bondage, s/m fetish that he gets such a kick out of humiliating people.

These are the sorts of stories that people from accross the globe look and shake their heads:

"Only in AMERICA."

What will we hear about next? Some redneck freak with another odd idea to put people in steel cages designed for monkeys and hose them with ice cold water?

Oh, no let me guess, they'll take a few lessons from the Spaniards in medievil torture....

Someone will be singing that great song: "I shot the sheriff..."

Matty,

I am making a wonderful correlation between your hatred of women, Victoria's secret and your fascination with prisoners in pink undies.

I await your next announcement like a scientist that has discovered some rare and interesting species...

Cheers,

mb
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 1:01 pm

Hey, i am all for what they are doing.

Here, in SD the state penn has cable tv, my gosh, do they deserve cable? or TV for that matter?! They have done somthing illegal, they shoudln't have frills!
Their prision time shouldn't be a walk in the park! I mean they are getting treated decent. They are getting clothing, and food. People are starving over seas and they have done nothing ot deserve it, yet prisioners can create havoic on humanity, and still live pretty good.

I think it is great, I am all for harsh punishment, no matter what crime they created, weather it was robbing a store, to murding someone, they are all criminals in the eyes of the law, and should be treated the same. Who says the person/family of the person who got murdered suffered more than the guy who got a gun shoved in his face and told to give hte money. No one suffered more, so all crimals that created the problems need to be treated euqal....


I said it once, i'll say it again, I am all for it...
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 1:18 pm

I agree, Derek.

What is prison for?

A - To make criminals wish they had NEVER committed the crime(s) they committed
B - To serve as a crime deterant

If ONE criminal becomes a repeat offender, our prison system has failed in that respect. Our prison system should be the most ruthless, unwilling, and detestable place on the planet (while complying with Amendment VIII). It should be a place that no one EVER wants to return to. They should try to humiliate the prisoners- if the prisoners don't like prison very much because of that, they won't make a point of returning, will they?
But why stray away from crime if you know that if you are caught, you will be placed in a cell with everything you'd ever need- clothing, shelter, food, and, as Derek mentioned, cable TV. That's sure a deterant.
 Insane


I believe our corrections system needs to be as cruel as they can possibly be, short of the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution.

This includes tough prison sentences. If you murder someone, you ought to be executed. If you use a gun in the commision of a crime--any crime--, you ought to be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. That will curb homicides and crimes commited with guns. PURE COMMON SENSE.
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 1:35 pm

Prison time...a walk in a park? It never has been and it never will be.

Do not people realise that the ultimate punishment you can give to someone which will make then stop and think is TAKING AWAY THEIR FREEDOM!

Do I think that prisoners should have a TV, playstation, cable TV provided for them? No, no I don't. But what I do believe is that by having a system whereby a prisoner thru good behaviour can earn the right to BUY for themselves these things. Nothing in this world is free, and prison should be no different.

Do you people who are advocating this moron, actually think he is going to stick convicted murderers and rapists out in the desert in tents? Get real....these prisoners are kept and will always be kept in maximum security complexes. What he is obviously talking about is putting people who are in for minor offenses in these tents. In this way, you would be treating people worse for "minor" offences than you would for those who have committed "major" crimes.

Everyone, when they think of crime, automatically think of murder, rape and robbery (maybe this is a reflection on how violent your own society is), but don't forget that drink driving, jaywalking, fraud, etc are also crimes. Should a person who is found guilty of traffic offences be given the same harsh punishment as a serial murderer? If you say the answer is yes, you really need to get out in the world, and have a look around you, and start to ask yourself some questions on what justice is all about.

Should a person who is sentenced to prison for crime for a parole term, have to spend that full time in a maximum security prison? No they shouldn't. By putting someone into a maximum security prison for their full term, you are further isolating that person from society. As a person's sentence progresses, and after they have shown that they have respect and general good behaviour, they should have the opportunity to move to a minimum security facility, get exposure back into the community by working in and with the community on projects which will benefit the community.

Anyone who says that prison or capital punishment acts as a deterrent to crime, needs to ask themselves why violent crimes are on the increase. I ask this question to you American's who read this and have those views on crime. Prison and capital punishment DO NOT act as a deterrent. Provide proof on how this is true otherwise.

A lot of people have no idea on how society works, and that prisons are there because of things that are wrong with a person, and that society oftens refuses to address the issues which lead to a person offending in the first place. Take a look at the heroin and naltrexone issue (drug offenders make up an overwhelming number of prisoners).

If a prisoner re-offends, it doesn't mean that the system has failed to deter the person from committing further crime. It has, often, failed the prisoner in helping them to change their ways.

I now look forward to the responses from all the 13-20 year olds out there who have an opinion on everything, but have absolutely no idea how this world works.  Insane
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 1:43 pm

>Should a person who is found guilty of traffic offences be given the same harsh punishment as a serial murderer?

Here in the States, traffic infractions have nothing to do with the prison system. No one goes to jail for speeding, jaywalking, etc. If you show up in court, you might get your fine reduced. If you don't show up, expect a bill in the mail. No prison time for going 15mph over the speed limit...

>By putting someone into a maximum security prison for their full term, you are further isolating that person from society

I'd say they isolated themselves when they commited their crimes.

>Prison and capital punishment DO NOT act as a deterrent. Provide proof on how this is true otherwise.

Oh, so prison isn't a deterrent? So whats the point of even having prisions, Brissie?
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 1:55 pm

I think the prision systems has failed every time a person commits a crime, whether it be their first, or fifth. People should know what hell prision is (if it actually was). If they knew that it was horrible (which it isn't) they would think if commiting a crime for fear of going there.

In my opinion, the 'minor' crimes are just as bad as the 'major.' so even if he is just sticking the 'minor' offenders out in the desert, it would be likely they woudln't commit it again, no matter how petty. And if people knew that, that was the punishment for a minor crime, they wouldn't do it either.

How does the prision system think they are going to 'convert' convicts into peopel who can live in society if they are locked in a cement/metal cell 23 hours a day? Is THAT helping them become adjusted to society? I doubt it, HIGHLY doubt it.

Hey, why do you think prostitues are out 'on the town' every night? Even if they do get cought, they are in the holding cell for one night, if that. And then they are back on the street that same night, or next night. Why do people keep doing this? b/c the punishment is so minial (sp?). If they were sentenced to a month in prision for every time they were pick up for prostitution, there woudl be less, for these resons: they would realize that for that 'small' of an offence, they would be in HUGE trouble, in that month they were in they woudln't have acess to drugs, therefore, *maybe* getting them over their addiction to drugs, and *maybre* they could get a REAL job, and change their lives around. Now that would be changing criminals around...Not booking them, then sending them out whoring again....
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 2:19 pm

Prisoners wear pink panties...

Was Marv Albert incarcerated there? ...Yes!!! Big grin

Don't agree with Sheriff Joe, but it's been going on for a long time now and the courts have ruled that it's constitutional..could be worse, they could serve baloney sandwiches for breakfast, lunch and dinner--Oops, that's happened too.
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 2:34 pm

Arpaio is treating these HUMANS (seems a few of us forget that) horribly. He should be behind bars himself. Eventually, we're going to nail his ass and throw him into the same hell-hole he makes others live in. Cruel and unusual punishment is crime, and we are going to get him for it.

L_188, you disgust me. Hey, here's an idea, why don't you go out, buy a high-powered weapon, and start mowing down those chain-gangs? Skip the middleman, right?  Yeah sure
Dear moderators: No.
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 3:14 pm

Instead of looking at parts of my post, try to look at the whole post and put the whole thing in perspective, and relate it back to the real world.

My point on traffic offences, is that although you are not sent to jail, you are still breaking the law, and hence you are a criminal. I have seen on this thread that ALL criminals should be given the harshest punishment possible.

Prison is not a deterrent, and never will be a deterrent. Prison is there so that people can be removed from society for a time, imposed by the court, as punishment. That is all they are for. You may hear a judge from time-to-time, in sentencing, mention that he is giving this person x-number of years in prison, and hope that it acts as a deterrent to people in future. Judges that say this need to wake up and realise that what they are saying is utter nonsense.

Putting someone in the isolation environment that is a prison is going to cause that person to become institutionalised. Have any of you people seen "The Shawshank Redemption"? It is exactly like that....people become so institutionalised that they see no other choice but to kill themselves or commit another crime; because they can't adjust to life on the outside. In the case of committing another crime, it is often done because they are given food, water, clothing and shelter (guaranteed under the UN Charter on Human Rights....sorry to some of you American guys...I know how unconstitutional this might be for you).

Also, people who commit crimes are not isolated when they commit that crime. They are often isolated from society long before that, and it is often this isolation that is a factor in them committing a crime in the first place.

I think that We're Nuts, and myself, are the only people to have used this word in this thread....HUMANS. Criminals are humans like you and me; the only thing being that they have broken a law that stops them from participating in society. For breaking this law, they have to be punished. Whether they are sentenced to a term of "natural life", or a 10 night stay in the county jail, these people are HUMANS, and have every right to be treated as such, even if some of their crimes may not bring the human out in them.
 
cfalk
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 5:19 pm

The only thing that impresses a prisoner is the sense of shame. Remember please that these gang types, rapists, and other prisoners who go to maximum security jails are actually quite social among themselves, and there is a lot of macho posing going on between them. This goes on in the jail as well.

I agree with what the sheriff has done, except for the bad food part. There is no need to serve sub-standard food. But I want to extend the pink panty business. Make all the prisoners wear french maid uniforms. In such a macho society, they would rather shoot themselves than go to jail, which would be a solid deterrant on one hand, and will lower the court load on the other.

Shame is the key. It is the only thing that will work with the criminal mind. Shame him in front of his friends and family, and then he won't ever want to go back. Right now he doesn't really care either way.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 5:30 pm

I don't understand the pink thing... it is just a color, and if everyone else is wearing them, what's the big deal?

>The only thing that impresses a prisoner is the sense of shame.

Be careful with that word "prisoner". A prisoner is anyone ranging from the most brutal killer, to a person who has had to bit too much to drink and needs to spend the night, to a child who has been grounded by his parents. You CANNOT make statements as provocative as that and not be specific.
Dear moderators: No.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 5:56 pm

Brissie the problem is that for a lot of people shame doesn't throw a lot of wait.

Yes I am condemming society for that

After looking over your list, I had the following comments.

Not being able to go out with friends. (A lot of people have their freinds allready in prison)
Not being able to go to family functions. (Not a biggie
Not being able to go for a walk when you want.
Not being able to go the footy. (forgive my ignorance here but 'footy'??? Must be a local term)
Not being able to go to work. (Why would you want to work, you get three squares a day, a roof over your head and cable tv in a lot of cases. Hell I don't have cable TV)
Not being able to earn a living. (See Above)
Not being able to celebrate your birthday with people you love. (Broken home syndrome)
Not being able to go to your brother's wedding. (Same problem as above, And besides who wants to dress up like a penguin, especially since it was probably his third or fourth Smile/happy/getting dizzy)
Not being able to go on the holiday all your friends are taking(You are still able to but getting air fare is a lot tougher. Seven prisoners down in Texas just proved that.)


We're Nuts:

The absence of personal responsiblity that we seem now is part of the reason why prisons should punish. It used to be that the idea of even being accused of a crime was shameful in and of itself. Actually getting convicted was even worse, but not anymore. When you have so many repeat offenders like we do today, that luster has worn off.

So we are back to having to translate prison with some sort of physical activity or personal shame.

How do you shame the shameless???
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sat Feb 03, 2001 7:02 pm

Here is another question for you guys. And it is an important one, because a lot of you seem to know the lot.

Do you know personally, and have you talked at length to a person who has been to prison?

Have you talked about their hopes, aspirations, and most importantly the shame they feel about being in prison?

How much shame do you think a person would feel having to visit with their family and real friends, separated by a wall of glass?

How much shame do you think a person would feel having to submit to routine strip searches, and maybe the occasional cavity search, because they are not trusted because of the prison drug problem.

All of the comment that L-188 made above are pure fiction and a little too sarcastic.

Why do I say this?

Because those remarks were straight from the mouth of my brother. My brother? Big deal right? What the hell has he got to do with anything? Right?

He has everything to do with this because he has spent some time inside. What for and for how long for is none of your business, but what is your business, is what a prisoner feels when they have their freedom taken away from them.

Prisoners do not have friends....they have acquantances, although my brother's FRIENDS were on the outside, and visited him every week (when possible).

Not being able to go to family functions? Not a biggie? Maybe not for you L-188 who may not give a shit for your family, but how would you feel if you were to ring your family to talk on the phone from prison to find out that they are all sitting down to a meal, and then going out afterwards; as a family; as a family without you. No biggie!? Stop talking like you know it all, no biggie? Family is the only thing which keeps a lot of people in prison going. But you know that right?

Again, celebrating your birthday, or Christmas, or New Years, is the same as above. It is not a very nice feeling celebrating these events which most people do celebrate, alone and in a cell; all the time thinking about what people on the outside are doing.

It is also frightening for most people in prison about rape. People may joke and laugh about "Don't drop the soap". But have you seen the result after a kid of about 20, who was inside for nothing more than refusing to pay traffic fines, was packed raped by 7, yes 7, men. Did this kid deserve that? Pointless question I suppose, unless of course you believe that a person is sent to jail FOR punishment, in which case, several rounds of major surgery, stitches, attempted suicides, etc, etc, is just part of that punishment.

My brother's biggest regrets were:

* Not being able to attend my other brother's wedding and stand up there with us (BTW...it was his first wedding)
* Not being able to attend the funeral of one of his closest friends who was killed in a car wreck.
* Not being able to visit my grandmother in hospital whilst she was on her death-bed.

But, of course, these are no biggies.

I have also had the opportunity to talk to prisoners whilst they are on the inside, thru a job which I did a few years ago. I have talked to them about their hopes, aspirations, dreams and what life they want for themselves, once they get out. I have also talked to them about how they feel about being isolated from the rest of society, and when they are released how society expects them to be a better citizen, even though they have received no help in prison to help address their offending behaviour.

I could go on but I won't (not at this point anyway)

But there are a couple of other things I want to say.

If you guys (yes, the Americans on this board) feel that your prisons are not doing the job they were built for, then get off your arse, get away from this forum, and go and do something about it. You can fairly judge a society by the way that that society treats it's prisoners, and judging by what some of you have said here, American society as a whole is totally #$%@ed up. Don't go blaming it on Democrats or Republicans or Bush or Clinton or Reagan. Blame it on yourselves. After all, it is YOU who let it get that way, not a politician in his office in Washington DC. Why don't YOU do something about it???

Also after have read this thread (which I have hoped would come up sooner or later), you can soon see that we as people are in two different worlds.

The first group (which I belong to) are those people who have lived in the real world; have seen things you wouldn't believe or wish to see, have done things you would never do. We based our opinions and ideas on personal life experiences.

The second group (which several people who shall remain nameless belong to) are those people who live life from a book. They quote the constitution here and there, they quote this and they quote that. But quoting this and that doesn't mean diddly, if you can't relate that into real life experiences. Maybe once some of these people have reached the age of 21, they too might begin to understand what it means to belong to the 1st group.
 
Matt D
Topic Author
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 1:25 am

This may really surprise you, but I have a cousin whom I love dearly who is serving time right now. He was incarcerated in May of 1999, and is scheduled to be relesed in November of 2002.
He first served in Avenal (where I tried to drive up every week to visit him), then was briefly transferred to Corcoran, and he is now currently housed at Soledad.

The reason he is serving that sentence, in a nutshell was because he discharged a rifle in his apartment. It went through his wall, the neighbors wall, the neighbors couch, and out the next wall.
Fortunately, no one was hurt.
Do I feel sorry for him for being locked up? Absolutely?
Do I miss him? You bet.
But as much as I love him, he is still lacking in some common sense and prudent judgement (the fact that his mother [and my mothers sister-my aunt] is one of those incense burning astrology freaks did nothing to help during his childhood, so he had been getting into trouble with the law since he was a teenager).
Do I think he should've gotten a leaner sentence? Of course. But, as I told him the first time I visited him:

"Steve, as much as I care about you, the reason you are here is because of sheer stupidity. If only you checked the rifle to make sure it wasn't loaded. But you were in a hurry, and look at what happened."

Even though he's a blood relative, I still feel he has to pay the price for his actions. It is painful to go up there and see him like that. But what can you do?


As for you MX-boy, you think you may see a pattern, but I think your picture of me is still way off:

The reason I was in Victorias Secret was because my last girlfriend took me there and wanted to get a few little ensembles to try and "spice" things up. In typical Matt D fashion, I didn't notice that she was trying to please me by wearing somthing really sexy, but I DID notice that I liked the music being played in the background.

I don't know what gives you the impression that I hate women. Please elaborate.

And as for the pink panties, talk about tunnel vision on your part. This post has nothing to do with pink panties other than as a means for tormenting prisoners. Look at the bigger picture here and re-read the whole post.

So with all of that in mind, would you like to re-assess what you think here?
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 2:38 am

I don't know where some of you are getting this idealized image of a society without crime. No community, throughout history, has ever been crime free, and never will. Why? Because some of it is genetic. We already know that having an XYY genotype will make you more aggressive (scientific fact, not opinion). Our DNA structure is complex beyond our wildest dreams, and we may never understand its true power. It is more than likely that certain criminal traits are genetic. And besides, prison was never meant as a deterrent, it was meant as a way to get the violent off the street, so they can no longer hurt the innocent.


Oh, and for those of you who think prison is a free ride, have you ever been forced to kneel in front of a 310 pound sociopath named "Bubba"? Big grin
Dear moderators: No.
 
DG_pilot
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

Brissie, As Well As Others...

Sun Feb 04, 2001 4:25 am

Brissie, you project this image of how a prison system should work, and what should be done, but the thing is, the systems are ALREADY like how you described, and they OBVIOUSLY AREN'T WORKING. Simple as that.

They have been liberalized into this relatively cushy place that is probably softer on most of them then their previous steert culture was. Society is now playing the emotional side of things, rather then the practical side of things.

Prisons should be a harsh deterrent and the next step for someone who has disobeyed society. However, we as a society are making prisons neither of what I just said.

There was a time not too long ago when someone who broke the laws and messed up was sent to a 'Hell on Earth' if you will. That person was very reluctant to commit another crime. There was no need for so called 'rehabilitation' because the system performed everything at once. The criminal was sent there, humiliated by SOCIETY, stripped of all but very basic rights (outlined in our Constitution if you live in the U.S.), and a substancial amount of time later was sent home with a horrible experience they would always remember. Whether they sat in a dark room 23 hours a day or worked and plowed the fields from sunrise to sunset (prisons used to be self-substaining), they CONSTANTLY did things that they hated. This burnt the experience in their mind, and it worked. The systems actually worked. There were very few repeat offenders!

We as a society needs to play the practical side rather then the over-emotionalistic side.

-Dustin

This helps reconfirm my belief that liberalism is merely an emotion. That's all folks....
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Brissie, As Well As Others...

Sun Feb 04, 2001 6:06 am

>The criminal was sent there, humiliated by SOCIETY, stripped of all but very basic rights (outlined in our Constitution if you live in the U.S.), and a substantial amount of time later was sent home with a horrible experience they would always remember

And when they were released back into society, they were untrusting of all law-enforcement, deeply scarred, and violent towards innocent people.

Conservatism is thinking through your ass. That's all folks...
Dear moderators: No.
 
DG_pilot
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Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

RE: Brissie, As Well As Others...

Sun Feb 04, 2001 6:13 am

So you are saying the thugs released back on the streets today ARE trusting of law-enforcement and ARE NOT violent towards innocent people?????????

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

You are clearly the one thinking through the ass here.

-Dustin
 
twa
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 6:42 am

"Sheriff Joe" Thas what they call him in Phoenix. I totally agree with his ways, plus I think its pretty funny.

TWA
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:35 am

You think the chain gangs which were prevalent in America were harsh punishment. When you compare that "punishment" to other types of punishment throughout history, you will learn that prison is NOT a deterrent at all.

In the 1700s, people in Britain who were caught stealing a loaf of bread were transported to the colonies for their punishment. Port Arthur in Van Diemen's Land (now Tasmania) was known to the be one of the most harsh "environments" every known to man (along with Devils Island). With people knowing that they would be sent to another land to serve their jail time in the most degrading way, you would think it would act as a deterrent (according to some people), but exactly the opposite is true. People still stole those loaves of bread, and were still transported as convicts to Australia.

Here in Australia, the Aboriginal people have a high rate of imprisonment, and make up a huge percentage of people in the prisons. A lot of them are repeat offenders. Going by some people's comments, Aboriginal people must be the scum of the earth, seeing as a large percentage of them have been imprisoned, and then caught for re-offending.

The question has to be asked "Why do they re-offend when they get out of jail?" Is it because Aboriginal people have long been on the lower rung of the socio-economic scale in Australia since day dot. People from a low socio-economic background, will have a higher rate of criminality and imprisonment than those from a higher socio-economic background.

What is the point of throwing a person from a poor socio-economic background into jail, make them do their time in the harshest way possible, then just throw them back out on the street to go straight back to that same poor socio-economic status?

Why not give them training and an education whilst they are serving their court imposed punishment? It is called personal development.

We say that everyone is entitled to a second chance in life, yet some people do not understand that for people to use this second chance positively and to become a better citizen in society, that they may need some assistance.

And what better opportunity than when they are confined in prison, with time on their hands.

Here in WA, only those prisoners who have done their time in maximum and/or medium security, and are not rated as a security risk are allowed to go to a minimum security prison, as there are no fences, no gates, your doors aren't locked. It is the closest it is to being free whilst in prison. This is done to smooth the transition for the prisoner back into society, when that time comes around. There is one particular prison 4 hours drive south of Perth called Pardalup, some 30km out of the closest town, Mount Barker. Pardalup is what is classed as a prison farm, that being, the prison is a working farming property. The majority of the food is grown/reared on the property, the prisoners work different duties on the farm, from fencing to roustabouting. There is also a project called the Bibbulmun Track. The Bibbulmun is a track that runs from Perth to Walpole (a distance of over 400 kms), on which it is possible to walk the whole distance. Prisoners are given the opportunity to work on this track, and for the most part have been responsible for the building and upkeep of the majority of 400km. It get's the prisoner out into the community, mixing with the community, and further preparing them for release back into that community (society in general).

Prisoners are also encouraged to come up with ideas on how to improve the prison for themselves. This ranges from painting the buildings, building new furniture, putting in gardens, in general, making the prison an attractive look to it. Whilst my brother was down there, the inmates came up with an idea to build a 9-hole golf course. The golf course was not going to be able to be used by them; it would be for the use of the officers only. By coming up with this idea, and doing it without personal gain, except maybe only that of personal satisfaction, they are displaying the qualities which we want them to display when they do return to society.

It is a known FACT that a person who serves some of their time at a minimum security facility is LESS likely to re-offend than a person who has served their sentence in a maximum security facility. This fact is so well known, that over the last couple of years, our prisons here have been host to quite a few delegations from Europe, Canada and America who have come to learn about how our prisons have made a difference.

Like I said before, if you don't think that this system can work over in America, then there is something wrong with your society that needs to be looked at. Maybe it is a drug problem, maybe a guns problem, maybe a poor upbringing problem. What I mean is that the things that cause people to commit the crimes which cause them to go to jail as punishment, need to be looked at, and rectified.

Crime is a problem which affects all of society, and is therefore the responsibility of all of society to try and solve the problems which causes crime, and treating prisoners like animals is not going to help one iota.



Matt D

Seeing as you know someone, who you say you love dearly, in prison at this moment, how would you feel if he was served rotten food? Or humiliated in an inhumane way?

 
Guest

TWA

Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:40 am

What is so funny about going to jail and being humiliated and being treated like an animal?

Maybe when you unknowlingly commit a crime and are jailed for punishment, only to be gang-butt-!@$#ed by 7 guys....then we will see exactly how funny prison really is.

Grow up! (Sorry, I just looked at your profile and saw you are 16-20......so you still have a few years to grow up.......let's just hope for your sake it happens).
 
We're Nuts
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DG_pilot...

Sun Feb 04, 2001 8:56 am

Adding insult to injury won't keep anyone from knifing you. Prisons were never meant as a deterrent, and will not work in that way. It isn't possible.


Isn't it interesting how different Brissie_lions and myself are, and yet how we agree on most everything. Fight on, friend, and the world shall be ours!
Dear moderators: No.
 
747-451
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 9:09 am

"Don't do the crine, if you can't do the time...."

Incarceration must have a "punishment" aspect to it. After all they are "Penal" institutions, aren't they.

Before anyone complains about prisoner's rights, what about of the rights of crime victims and society in general to have a safe environment. Penal systems should be a deterent. As distasteful as this "pink panty" thing may be, it is just as "distasteful" for criminals to prey on society.
 
KROC
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 9:11 am

Okay, I have skimmed through all of the above posts, and by most, I am appauled. I can't believe the arguements against that "harsh" treatment some convicts receive. Just last night on the Discovery Channel, they had a show on Chain Gangs and it included Sheriff Joes operation in AZ. I sat there in disbelief as these criminal, convicted criminals, had the nerve ti bitch and moan about they way they are treated in prision. Yet they didn't give a flying fuck about anything when they were doing whatever got them in jail in the first damn place. Brissie and Were Nuts, I repect your opinions, and its obvious they have validity, and you have been around long enough to back them up, but I have to ask, would you feel the same way you do now, if someone say who had already done a bid robber, raped, or killed someone who was close to you? The prision system is failing, and eveytime I here about prisoner rights, I wanna jump off a cliff. Whats next for criminals? Plush carpeting in there cells? Personal air conditioners? Red Carpet rolled out for them, on there first day in jail?
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 9:13 am

>A prisoner is anyone ranging from the most brutal killer, to a person who has had to bit too much to drink and needs to spend the night, to a child who has been grounded by his parents.

Uh, no. A "prisoner" is someone in a "prison". A prisoner is someone who will be incarcerated for more than one year. If you are sentenced to less than one year, you serve it in jail.

>No community, throughout history, has ever been crime free, and never will.

So, just because of that, we shouldn't try to make criminals never want to go to jail? Of course not, common sense tells you that if you do something bad and because of that are taken out of society and treated bad, you won't ever do that again. Likewise, common sense tells you that if you do something bad and because of that you are taken out of society, hand-fed, can go to the gym, watch cable TV, never have to work, etc., etc., you probably won't mind going back.

Now I know why liberals don't want to attack the problems themselves in this country....
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 11:07 am

>what about of the rights of crime victims

So two wrongs make a right now? Hmmm, didn't know they changed that....


KROC, YES, absolutely. A human life is a human life, and I will not sway or be swayed.


N766AS, don't make me get the Dictionary out again....


Okay, bottom line: No institution, in America, serving ANY propose, should cause alarm bells at Amnesty International to go off, sparking an investigation! For God's sake, this is AMERICA!! You don't beat and kill your prisoners just because you don't give a damn about human life. Amnesty International should be spending their time on Nike sweatshops in Asia and Turkish Prisons, not a jail in Phoenix who has a psychopath at the helm.

Oh, and for the record, putting Arpaio in charge of a Prisoner's Rights investigation is like having Bob Dornan head up a mental health task force Big grin
Dear moderators: No.
 
KROC
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 11:25 am

Were Nuts, I disagree. A psychopath is not in charge in Arizona, I think he is more of a revelotionary leader. I didn't see one thing wrong with what goes on there. To me, I sit back and think, "Damn, I'll be damned if I screw up, and end up in a place like that." Prisoners cry for every little thing in 2001. They committed a crime, so they need to serve there punishment. Criminals know what will happen if they get busted, so to me, its all in there own hands. If they chose to break the law, then why should the law work for them?
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 11:33 am

But there is a difference between being hard and being cruel. Arpaio is getting his kicks by being cruel to these prisoners, and that is wrong. He is tormenting them, not preparing them to re-enter society! If he isn't a psychopath, I don't know who is.

Can you honestly justify his prisons, if Amnesty International was forced to do an investigation? It's sickening, really.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 11:46 am

So i have this question for all of you, if the prison systme isn't spose to 'cure' some of the freakos in there to make them acceptable to society again, what is the point? If a man raped a woman and go out in 35 years and hasn't changed, were just letting the same psychopath out on the streets again. So what is prision for, for those of you who say its not to change, or detour people form going back?

In my opinion the whole court/prision systme is fÜcked up! Killers can get 10 years and people who imbezell (sp?) money can get more time. I think killers shoudl automatically get the death penalty. Yes, in this case two wrongs DO make a right.
 
KROC
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 11:52 am

Were Nuts: From what I have seen about Arpaio, and I will assume is along the lines of what you have seen, or know, yes, I can agree with him. I do not think hs set up is cruel as opposed to hard. I believe more prisions should be run like this. It just might make people think twice before they screw up.
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 12:12 pm

And I have another question. Whats the big deal with wearing pink underwear isn't it just a color? Whats embarassing about wearing pink? Just because society has set it aside as a 'girly' color? And whats the big deal, and huge embarassment if everyone is forced to wear them?
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 12:15 pm

I'm sorry, do you know what Amnesty International is? They investigate and publish HELL-HOLES! You don't make their list because you are reforming a corrupted system....

And do you agree with the refusal of medicine necessary to the life of the prisoner? Forcing them to live in 120 degree whether, with no air-conditioning, with no medical attention? Do you agree with forcing prisoners to eat food long past its expiration date? Do you agree with Arpaio's officers repeatedly electrocuting prisoners they know for a fact to be on drugs, long after they are dead? Breaking the neck of a prisoner while they forced him into a restraint chair and beat him? DO YOU?
Dear moderators: No.
 
KROC
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 12:31 pm

1.) I could cry to someone that the Air Force is being unfair to me, and Amnesty International will be here tomorrow to investigate. These prisioners don't like jail? Boo fuckin' Hoo.

2.) There was one, count'em one incident were excessive force was/may have been used. I'm sure things are just as bad and worse in even low security prisions. You are just singling out this guy, because he has become a public figure. Typical of a liberal. You take one thing, and blow it up like it is the end all. As for eating food past its experation.....it wasn't expired. True it wasn't fresh like me or you would eat, BUT it was deamed edible. As for living in 120 degree heat, Whaaaaaaa. That is like a poor family living in Arizona with no Air Conditioning. You're not crying a river for them now are you? I never saw anyting about denying medical attention, BUT if that is going down, then yes, I do disagree with that. Touching on the exessive force issue again. That is something in every prision in every state in the US. I don't agree with its use, unless warrented, and guess what? I wasn't there, you wern't there, and I will be damned if I believe a convicted criminal, because he is mad he is incarcerated and is hating life. These are prisioners for a reason. They should get no Air Conditioning, they should get no 7 course meals, and they should not expect to live in top notch facilities. They BROKE the law. They go to jail. Jail is not a summer camp. Jail is the way it is, because of the people that are in it!
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 2:22 pm

>N766AS, don't make me get the Dictionary out again....

A dictionary isn't going to tell you how the American corrections system works. A jail is a place where criminals can be held for up to 365 days, whereas a prison is a place where convicts are held for more than 365 days. Anyone in the legal field on this forum can confirm this. Prisons are different from jails.

>with no medical attention

Where did that come from? The top of your head? No, refusing medical attention would be in contradiction with the Eighth Amendment. And, not to mention, in a league of its own, nowhere near making prisoners wear pink panties.

>These prisioners don't like jail? Boo fuckin' Hoo

You are exactly correct. Boo fuckin' Hoo.
What is this country coming to?
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 2:26 pm

Don't for one moment think that I don't care about victim's rights, because I do. Victims of crime have the right to justice. I also believe that society should be safe. There are some crimes which people commit which, thru the society attitudes, deserve a sentence of "term of the natural life". That is fair enough....I believe it in too. What I am saying is that not everyone is given, or deserves, such a term, and the time will come when they will re-enter society.

747-451 mentioned that prison should have a punishment factor to it. Prison, in essence is punishment. There is no greater punishment that someone can receive than taking away their FREEDOM.

What is the one thing in life that people take for granted? Their FREEDOM. Ask the slaves in America what would they rather have.....their freedom, a five-star meal, a roof over their head, or cable TV (if they had of had cable back then). I guarantee you that 100% of those slaves would answer, their freedom. The human spirit is one that which is based upon freedom of that spirit, and taking that freedom away from them is the greatest punishment you could ever hand down.

Prison as a punishment is all about taking that persons freedom away from them.

The question was asked of me how would I feel if I was a victim of crime. If I was a victim of crime, of course, I would want justice; but at the same time, I realise that that person is at some time in the future going to re-enter society. I would want that person to be "rehabilitated", but I also know that prison on it's own has never rehabilitated a person.

A prison sentence has never rehabilitated a person. What it has done is given the person the time to take a long, hard look at their life, see what direction is headed, and to take the steps to change. A person will only change if they want to change. I know that the great majority of prisoners are not bad people, but thru varying circumstances, they have gotten into the situation in which a prison sentence is imposed. The majority of these people would love to change, but first they have to admit what they did was wrong, and them move from there. Often a person wants to change their ways, but do not have any idea on how to do it. It is our responsibility as a society in general, to help that person become a productive member of that society.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 2:35 pm

It's very easy to sit here and make a lot of smug, self-rightious comments about how prisons are contry clubs and heap praise on Arpaio for doing such a wonderful job.

I have one question for you lot:

Have you ever actually been inside a prison? I have. I have worked as a chaplain at King County Youth Detention in Seattle, and have also made trips to the Monroe Reformatory (a maximum security prision in Washington State) with college students to meet and talk, and minister to inmates. Let me tell you something. There is nothing cushy about it. It is a humiliating hard, violent existence. Once more, no one thinks about that when they commit a crime. Many who do have been there before and know the drill, and some of the stories I have heard would make your hair stand on end.

It is naive to think prision is a deterrent, and to suggest that concentration camp style tactics will somehow change this is wrong headed, myopic and perverse. Somehow I think if many of you were forced to spend 30 days in a prision you might think differently. And don't think it won't happen. In Idaho that is the penalty for driving without a license.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
KROC
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 2:42 pm

>There is nothing cushy about it. It is a humiliating hard, violent existence. < Thats the way it should be. If you break the law, you have to pay your dues. Its that plain and simple. You don't go out and rape, or kill, or steal, or whatever, and expect a nice ride in prision.

>Once more, no one thinks about that when they commit a crime< Maybe, but they know the deal before they commit a crime. Maybe they should think a little before actually committing a crime, because when/if caught, they know the deal.
 
Guest

RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 3:04 pm

>I have worked as a chaplain at King County Youth Detention in Seattle...

So, is KCYD as cushy as people at school say? Big grin
I've never been there myself, but some people I know (who have spent the night there...hehe) say they have Nintendo, cable TV, etc. Just wondering...
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 3:30 pm

KROC, one is far too many. FAR too many. Another death is another life, lost, because this psycho doesn't want to be "cushy". HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THIS!?

Dammit KROC, I don't want to be soft on crime, but I cannot support an institution that uses DEATH as a restraint method! Can't you see that this isn't right?


N766AS, you brought this on yourself...

Webster's Dictionary defines "Prisoner" as:

"A person who is confined in a prison | A person who is in custody or under restraint | A person who is captured or held captive"


Oh, and I'm assuming that you didn't see the Discovery show (as most of us did), they gave a couple cases where medical attention was denied.
Dear moderators: No.
 
KROC
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RE: Pink Panties For Prisoners?

Sun Feb 04, 2001 3:37 pm

While I don't agree with even one instance of excessive abuse of a prisioner, it happens in ever single prision. You want to single one guy out, and thats BS. Also, while I can't justify this again, why should I care what happens to a prisioner who possibly killed someone, and thats why he is in jail? If that criminal doesn't have any reguard for human life, then I'm sorry, I won't shed a tear over him. I abide by the law so I don't end up in prision. If someone breaks the law, they KNOW the consequneces, and it leaves my concern. As a law abiding citizen, I have enough to worry about now adays, then to sweat some murderer crying about whatever. Thats garbage. As far as I am concerned, should someone kill someone, they are taking that persons rights away, especially the persons right to live, so in jail, that murderer should have his rights taken away as well. Criminals should not be coddeled. They need to be punished. I do see where you are coming from, but to me, where your coming rom is garbage.

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