Guest

Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:46 pm

Abortion.

That big word that strikes fear into the religious and conservative alike. Whilst I know this has been discussed on this forum before, I don't believe it has been done from a woman's prospective. Why? Why should men dictate what women do to their bodies? Is it not a woman's choice? YES, it is a woman's choice, it's her body by right and she does not wish to follow through with a full term pregnancy the I believe it's her right to make the choice to abort is she so wishes to do so.

The procedure and surgery is unpleasant, so is the so called ethical and moral reasons why. BUT, it is not up to a man to decide whether or not a woman does this. This is my question, is it a woman's choice or not?

We don't need to hear from the religious zealot minority's on this issue, they will claim conservatism and the "death penalty" in one sentence, and add for a desert, "right to life". Hypocrites, and male at that.

Let a woman chose her destiny. Many see no reason with killing for war, children, adults and even pregnant women. What is the problem with women choosing their fate?

Cheers,

mb
 
Aussiemite
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:05 pm

This is a very difficult topic, theres always going to be a difference of opinion. Personally I don't beleive in abortion, I could never have a girlfriend/wife go ahead with it.
 
Ikarus
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:10 pm

Just for the record: I'm pro-choice. Other than that I will keep out of this discussion. The christian hate debate is monopolising on my time.  Big grin
 
N312RC
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:29 pm

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no......

Pure and simple, it is MURDER.

Why cant you people see that? You are taking the life of a living, breathing, thinking human being! That is just plane wrong, and should be illegal.
N/A
 
KROC
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:10 pm

I am pro-chioce, and I will leave it at that.
 
Ikarus
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RE: N312RC

Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:17 pm

LOL: Breathing, Thinking!

It's just a few cells - probably not even enough to have sensory reactions.

According to your list, the death penalty is a thousand times more wrong - as those people are really breathing, living and thinking. Yet I am a supporter of that, too. (But only for serious crimes like rape and murder - not for corruption and espionage as some people demanded a few days ago in the FBI agent spy forum)
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:46 pm

This is no doubt one of the most hottly debated topics of all time.

When I was younger, I bought into all of this NRA and NOW rhetoric about a "womans choice".

Now, I find myself wondering.

Now don't get me wrong, I think to a certain extent, it's a valid argument.

But I only think that all of this hoopla regarding "right to choose over my body" is only a facade for a much deeper issue, which sort of ties in to some of the things I said in my "Hating Christians" topic.

Abortion, IMHO is nothing more than an advanced form of birth control.

You see, although the pro-choicers love to scream about a womans right to choose, that's not the real issue.

Because that decision does and always has existed, and it all boils down to personal choice and responsibility.

Of course, I am referring to:

SEX!!!

That's right. That's the real issue here. Everybody wants to have their sex.
And a (unwanted) pregnancy could be a consequence to that sex.

So what do they do? Stop the sex? Take better precautions?

No, they kill the baby.

What better way to skirt responsibility for your actions?

And please spare me the sob stories about rape and incest, because those collectively comprise fewer than 1% of them. (I should also comment parenthetcially that 98% of all murders in this country are abortions).

So you see, the 'womans right to choose' has always been present. It's just a matter of WHEN that decision gets made.

It's also interesting to note that motherhood is by INSTINCT one of the most powerful forces to protect.
The desire and will for a mother to care for and protect her baby is a biological force.
Just try and do any harm to a baby, and see what what most mothers will do. And you thought disgruntled Postal workers were dangerous.

When a society can convince a mother to execute her child in the face of the most powerful force to protect, that society has a very powerful impact indeed. It is a stunning success of Black Magic in this country. (This also applies to women who do not have abortions, and go on to abandon, neglect, or abuse their offspring)
 
Ikarus
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 12:21 am

MattD, are you finally seeing the point about how immoral a society is that disrespects single mothers and calls their children "bastards"? I know, things are improving, but I'm sure there's still far too many idiots out there.

Also: a condom has an 89% rate of protection, a pill 98%. So what happens to the other 11% / 2% respectively. Unwanted pregnancy is one possible outcome - hence abortion is the last measure. And hence it has my fullhearted support.
 
tupolev154b2
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 12:51 am

I am pro-choice. I see no reason for men or the government to be telling women what they can or cannot do with their bodies. Before any of you right-wing zealots jump on me and scream "BLOODY MURDERER!" at me, let me tell you that I, like everyone else think abortion is wrong. Since it is a woman's personal business, however it is her business and only her business. Yes Matt D, Iagree with your point that responsibility in having sex is the most responsible way of not having an unwanted child, but please back up your claim that abortion is "an advanced way of birth control." Does that include rape? N312RC, what do you think about the death penalty then? Is not that the same thing? I believe that it is so even though I support it in cases of crimes that involve extreme brutality and the taking of human lives, for example the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City and the murder of the Dartmouth professors if other circumstances of the murder are proven to be true.
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 1:06 am

Comparing the death penalty to abortion is like comparing the avionics of a DC-3 versus an A340.

By executing a criminal, that person is being punished as per the law allows, which there is nothing illegal or immoral about. If a person has commited an offense that warrants the death penalty, that person is an abomination to society, and no amount of counseling or "rehab" will ever work.

Plus it's a lot more cost effective to drive in the needle as opposed to feeding, caring for, and housing an inmate for the rest of his/her life, which can be anywhere from a few years to several decades.

By executing an unborn baby, what offense is that baby guilty of, other than being an inconvenience?

Even though there is death in both scenarios, I cannot think of two more dissimilar sets of circumstances.

The convicted felon made a premeditated and conscious choice to do what they did to land in death row.

In the case of abortion, the only one guilty is the woman who took a risk and is unwilling or unable to live with the consequences.

Sorry, but no one is entitled to a free ride.
 
N863DA
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 1:49 am

Matt, I respect every single word of your opinion... but my confusion now comes from your above statement.

You say that the woman has no right to 'cleanse' her body of another's life - that of an unborn child. You also state, in the same post, that there is a good reason for the death penalty - amongst other things for the economic savings reaped from the lack of a requirement for food, water and shelter.

However, as is written in the bible, one has no right to take the life of another - and this includes 'society' (in the form of the State) taking the life of a felon. This, in theory, makes the 'By executing a criminal, that person is being punished as per the law allows, which there is nothing illegal or immoral about.' statement innaccurate. It may perhaps not be Illegal to take the life of another in the form of the Death Penalty, but it certainly is immoral if you follow the Bible to the letter. That, I feel, is a certainty.

'By executing an unborn baby, what offense is that baby guilty of, other than being an inconvenience?' Well, from a strict Economics point of view, the same as you said above could be said of a child... the one time expense of having an abortion, (which is not even an issue in certain countries with Nationalized Healthcare) is a lot less than year on year of diapers, food, clothing, housing, love - all the regular things.

The above is not an attack of any type, just an inquiry. Personally I feel that I have no right to dictate the outcome as it's not my place to do so - I am male, and it's something that concerns a woman. If it were my kid, I would have a serious problem with any form of abortion - but I would still have no right to choose if that's what is required and requested.

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A
 
cedarjet
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:01 am

Of course it's a woman's choice. Certainly not something that can be decided by a stranger, least of all with a religious agenda. This is one area where Americans have a lot to learn.

"No one gets a free ride"? "In the case of abortion, the only one guilty is the woman who took a risk and is unwilling or unable to live with the consequences"? Matt D, I agree they should bring back reel-to-reel but some of your other opinions are not based in reality.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
KROC
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:10 am

The reason why I am pro-choice, is not because I agree with killing unborn babies, but in many cases, where a woman gets an abortion, its because the kid is unwanted, there is no family for the baby, or financially the mother will not be able to support the baby. These are just a few of many. Now, you can argue and say adoption is the best thing, but there are so many children out there as it is, that need to be adopted, but I do think this is a viable option. Now, if a child is going to be born into a family where it was not wanted, will not be loved, will live in poverty, ect, I think that that child is better off not being born. I understand people shouldn't be having sex, if they can't be responsible, but that will probably never happen, so options like abortion are here, and as long as its the woman having the child, it should be her decision, coupled with the fathers.....

Just my 2 cents...
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:28 am

This is what I don't understand:

If these women do not want kids, or cannot afford them, why do they keep getting themselves knocked up?

This is the point that most pro choicers love to gloss over.
The choice IS there:

Do you or do you not wish to get pregnant? Nothing has taken away a womans right to make that choice.

Unless, of course it's as I suspect as I spelled out above:

They want to have their "freedoms" without any accountability or implications.

"If you can't pay, don't play".

Why is that such a difficult concept to come to grips with?
 
seven_fifty7
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:12 am

<<"If you can't pay, don't play". >>


Well, I think it's okay to "play", but why aren't more females using condoms nowadays, ESPECIALLY if they don't want kids? (Birth control pills do not always work). Not to mention (and more importantly) that they represent the fastest growing segment of HIV infection, and yet they still don't make their partners throw that raincoat on. It doesn't make sense to me.

 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:30 am

>Also: a condom has an 89% rate of protection, a pill 98%. So what happens to the other 11% / 2% respectively

OK... lets think. What is the 100% effective type of birth control?

I think Matt D has hit this one on the head. The pro-choicers just want "freedom" without any attached responsiblility, accountibility, or implications.
 
Ikarus
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RE: N766AS

Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:05 am

N766AS - are you implying no premarital sex as a solution? If you are, maybe your view of the world is outdated and has been outdated for the past 40 years.
 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:12 am

Spare us your tired old personal responsibility schtick. Since when has banning abortion gotten people to stop having sex? When abortion was illegal, all that happened was that women were forced into back alleys and died from botched procedures. Perhaps you don't care if women die to teach them a lesson, just like you don't care if infants starve to teach their parents a lesson. But then don't dare call yourselves "pro-life". And since when has it been the government's job to tell people whether to have sex or not? Perhaps you would like people to get a government application approved every time they want to have sex? It always irritates me that the "small government" people are perfectly willing to have the government intrude into people's bedrooms whether it be to ban homosexuality or abortions or whatever.

And frankly, as a future physician, I am appalled by some of the idiotic positions some "pro-life" people take. These people are totally unwilling to permit abortions EVEN when 1.) the fetuses have defects that will cause them to die within days of birth and 2.) carrying these fetuses to term might kill the mother. And this isn't even counting those people who go around advocating the murder of physicians who perform abortion procedures. The government should never tell physicians how to best practice medicine, and neither should political extremists. The decision is for the woman and her physician to make. Not Matt D or N766AS, unless it's your child and your body.
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:18 am

No one is telling anyone when or whether or not to have sex!!!
Go out and make like a rabbit all you want.
I really don't care.

All I said is that if you do choose to do that, then be ready to live with the consequences.

Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:37 am

Well, let me ask you this. What gives you the right or the authority to declare what the consequences are? Do you fancy yourself some sort of judge, jury, and executioner rolled into one -- and that you have the power to declare that failed contraception is punishable by a ruptured uterus? Who are you to dictate what options women should have?
 
mbmbos
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:38 am

"All I said is that if you do choose to do that, then be ready to live with the consequences.

Nothing more, nothing less. "

Except, Matt, to some degree you want to establish what those consequences will be.

I think your rhetoric is reasonable up to a point, but please be honest about it.
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 4:45 am

Rhetoric nothing, I'm telling you with all the subtlety of a slap in the face with a piece of pipe that that is what I am saying.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:00 am

...and nobody is buying it.

You're right about your lack of subtlety though!
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:07 am

....and why would you buy into it?

To do that would be an admission of guilt and actually be willing to take some responsibility for yourselves, not to mention actually having to make some tough choices and and perhaps even think ahead before doing something that maybe...just maybe....you have no business doing.

I would never expect that from a Liberal.

 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:13 am

I havent read through any of the posts... but i honestly dont see how a developing human life is a woman's choice. It is a moral choice... one of whether or not that child is going to live or not. My best friend just recently found out he has an unborn brother that was aborted 2 years before he was born.. how devastating was that....
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:58 am

Why is it that certain individuals perpetually avoid the meat of the argument? Matt D -- repeating your assertions and calling people "liberals" doesn't bolster your case. I repeat the question: You say people should face the consequences if they decide to have sex. So what gives you the right to determine what the consequences of sex should be? What gives you the right to tell women that if their contraception fails, and carrying a baby to term will be harmful to their health, that they must die? What gives you the right to say unwanted children must be born and then left to starve? Why shouldn't the consequence simply be that the woman must deal with her conscience and decide whether to undergo the stressful and painful experience of an abortion procedure? It would be the same thing if all of a sudden you declared that eating apple pie should be punished by the death penalty, and all that you ask is that people think before they eat apple pie, no more no less. That doesn't make banning apple pies any more justified, or any less of an intrusion on people's personal liberties. If you want to argue that fetuses are living, sentient beings with full moral rights, rather than non-sentient entities that are not viable outside the woman's body, that's another story. But that's not your argument. Your argument is simply that women need to face consequences that you arbitrarily set for actions which you arbitrarily deem to be reprehensible. In other words, you are playing judge, jury, and executioner in cases in which you have no jurisdiction. "No more, no less."
 
doomfox
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:58 am

If you can't trust a woman with a choice, how can you trust her with a baby?
 
KLM747
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 6:06 am

I think it's the woman's choice.

KLM747 Big grin
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 6:17 am

First of all, it's interesting to note that you mentioned apple pie. After seeing the movie in which said apple pie was the subject of a sexual encounter, (not to mention that appoximately one half of the worlds population was objectified as said pie once more) perhaps maybe apple pie should in fact be outlawed.

You repeat the question of "what gives me the right...?"

Well, first of all, who are YOU to tell me that my faith and beliefs are wrong?

That's everything that is wrong with society today. There is no right and wrong. Everything is relative. If no one is wrong, then how can everyone be right?
Anyway, to answer your question, I feel qualified to take charge of the situation on two premises:

1. My beliefs say that unborn children should not be executed JUST FOR THE SAKE OF BEING EXECUTED.

2. Since altogether too many of these abortions (if not, then the inevitable government subsidies that follow) are coming out of my paycheck.
I don't like it, and I'm going to do everything within my power to stop it.

You ask what gives me the right to see babies be born and left to starve?

I think I've answered this on several occasions. By doing this, I'm really going after the parents. But the bottom line is that it is THEIR OWN PROBLEM.
Maybe it's just because I live in North Mexico, er...Los Angeles County, and teenagers and 20-somethings living on welfare because they have 5 kids are about as common as automobiles, I have a real issue with that.
I could go on and on, but it would only be repetitve.
I don't believe in (and read this very carefully) ANY government subsidies (health care, day care, WIC, food stamps, welfare, housing, abortions, VD clinics, etc).

NOTHING.....ZERO....ZILTCH....NADA

The taxpayers should not have to pay for any of this stuff.
If that means shrivelling up and turning into a walking corpse because you picked up a social disease from "tomcatting" around, and because hanging out with your buddies in school was more important than doing your homework means you could not get a good job to either afford health care or get it provided to you, then that's your tough luck.

Let's do what we did with the lepers.
Exile them.
Sound cruel?
Maybe, but g**dammit, it worked. Leprosy became a thing of the past.

I've said it a hundred times before, IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE KIDS, OR IF YOU DO NOT WANT THEM, THEN DON'T TAKE THE CHANCE. KEEP YOUR PANTS ON.
IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THE PANTS OFF, THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS, BUT IF YOU FIND YOURSELF SUDDENLY PREGNANT, THEN THAT IS JUST TOO BAD.
 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:03 am

Your faith and beliefs are your business. Whether they're wrong or not is a moot point. What I object to is your using your faith and beliefs to presumptuously impinge on the behavior and choices of other people. If you think abortion is wrong, fine. Don't have one. I don't happen to think abortion is a particularly pleasant procedure either. But neither you nor I have the authority to tell anyone what reproductive choices they must make. And I shudder to think that lawyers from podunkville should have that authority by virtue of having been elected to Congress.

Whether fetuses are in fact people capable of being "executed," or clumps of cells that have no life as a separate entity is a point upon which intelligent people can disagree. But again, that's not the crux of your argument.

Let me boil your argument down and apply the most charitable interpretation: you want to make the consequences of having sex potentially so horrible that people will stop having sex. How is this different from the apple pie example? Let me give you another, potentially more realistic one. Let's say PETA decides to call for a ban on meat consumption. It's murder, they say! Members of PETA don't want to pay for all the government subsidies on the beef/poultry industries, etc. etc! They demand that punishment for eating meat be capital punishment or a $2 million fine. They say, if you choose to pleasure your taste buds, eat meat and get caught, then it's too bad. Show a little personal responsiblity and prepare to pay the consequences. Should Congress listen to PETA and make everyone vegetarian? Is PETA justified in making the consequences of eating meat so horrible that no one will eat meat anymore? The point here is that a certain group of people is using its "faith and beliefs" to unjustifiably impinge on the liberties of other people. Only if you accept this scenario can you accept your scenario with a consistent philosophy.

And you still have yet to resolve the philosophical dilemma you have created for yourself: you demand that fetuses be protected from their parents mistakes and have abortions outlawed. And yet you refuse, because of your petty greed, to help feed the starving children that result. Why is it that you can so easily condemn the "execution" of fetuses and permit the starving to death of already born children? I know you claim to be trying to "get at the parents" but since when is starving children a legitimate means to that end? And as for not wanting to pay for things you disagree with -- that's just tough. I don't want to pay for tons of things either, including but not limited to Trent Lott's little pork barrel mini-aircraft carriers that the Navy doesn't want. And I'd say feeding poor kids is a much better expense of tax money.

And on a practical level, do you seriously think that if abortion is outlawed and children are starving in the streets, people won't have sex? If so, you're living in a dream world. We'll just regress back to the 19th century when women were still dying from botched abortions and have starving urchins roaming the streets. So as a matter of reality, your personal responsibility rhetoric is pointless.
 
AgnusBymaster
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:11 am

I really can't see how an immature fetus is able to comprehend that it's being killed. It has no life experience, and if it's brain hasn't developed yet, what could it possibly feel? Sure, late-term abortion is wrong, but otherwise, it's a women's right, and there 'aint no reason to take that right away. Abortion 'aint fun, I mean women view it as an absolute last resort.

I can understand opposing affirmative action, but not abortion. Unless you are the patient, or the fetus is sufficiently developed, abortion don't have no effect on you.
 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:18 am

Being as frank and candid as possible, I would not in the least object (or even care for that matter) if these folks you so warmly mention were in fact decaying in back alleys or turning into walking skeletons.
I still don't want to subsidize irresponsible behavior, no matter how noble you attempt to make it sound.

You're 200% right. There is no way to legislate sex away (and that is not even what I am talking about).

As for the "meat is murder" analogy, I find that farfetched to say the least insomach as eating meat is a natural thing to do.
Sucking out your baby with a Hoover is not. Eating meat is something that is common in nature.
Expelling ones fetus (either in whole or in pieces or through chemical injections) prematurely is not.

I've never heard of a Doberman going to the vet and attempt to get an abortion because that damn escaped Rottweiler felon found her and raped her, forcing her to have his litter of puppies.
And I don't recall seeing her sitting in the alley behind a couple of trash cans with a coat hanger.

Sound parodied and ridiculous?
Of course...which Is exactly why I think the "right to choose" movement is a smokescreen.

But let me just humor you for a minute. Let's suppose that the consumption of meat is outlawed.
What would we do with the dogs, cats, hawks, wolves, lions and tigers of the world that depend on meat to survive? Would they be incarcerated?

 
Matt D
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:22 am

Women feeling guilt or viewing abortion as a "last resort"?

That's the funniest damn thing I've ever heard besides politicall correctness.

I've known several women who have had abortions.
And for every one of them, not only was it their FIRST plan of action, but they actually seemed to be quite nonchalant about it, and as soon as it was over, it seemed to be forgotten. Most were right back out to the club, bar and dating scene within a week.

Guilt....last resort....it's not birth control

BULLSHIT
 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:23 am

So in other words, you agree. In this particular example, PETA's faith and beliefs are "farfetched" and wrong and therefore they should not be allowed to impinge on your freedom to eat whatever you want. So what if people say YOUR faith and beliefs about abortion are wrong and therefore should not be allowed to impinge on THEIR freedoms? The only difference between the two examples is that you believe one philosophy and not the other.
 
AgnusBymaster
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:32 am

Abortion is something that is a personal decision. There are only two people it can effect...the mother and the child. Therefore, it is not up to others to decide whether I can have an abortion or not. An immature fetus does not have the same rights as a person.

Women do NOT enjoy havin' abortions! I've known people who've had them, and it's expensive, messy and emotionally very tought. I shouldn't generalize, but I know that I would never choose abortion unless I had first examined other less disruptive ideas.
 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:41 am

Raddog,

You have made my respected users list, I need not present any arguments as you have taken the words collectively out of my mouth.

Try as MattD will, to espouse his theories, this one I knew would knock him down, even to the point of losing some of "the faithfull".

You only have to see the UPPER CASE screaming to see it come apart.

On the issue of abortion, it's easy for certain religious and political groups to criticise, yet scratch the surface and you will find if the same people get themselves in a similar situation (the wealthy are particularly bad at this) they will bite the bullet and insist on an abortion (secretly - 3 towns over). For not even any better reason than the "embarassment of having a pregnant teen" - "oh my what would our good christian neighbours think".

I have seen it happen in this country and I am sure it happens everywhere. Hypocrites.

Cheers,

mb
 
AgnusBymaster
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:46 am

We do not need any more unneeded children in this world. Abortion is not the way to solve this problem, but I the last thing we need are unwanted children. And, we should adjust the number of children we desire. If we wanna live longer, we gotta have fewer children. It's as simple as that. We don't need unwanted children that a mother cannot support.

There is a larger and essentially unrelated issue here. What do we do about the population boom. And, there is no reasonable answer. Eventually, there will be no resources left. We will have to find ways of synthetically producing all that we need at the expense of the other creatures of the world.
 
Matt D
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AgnusBymaster

Fri Feb 23, 2001 7:50 am

The solution to that problem is as unlikely to happen as it is obvious.

Need I say more?


 
We're Nuts
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:31 am

I wanted to post this earlier, but I was disconnected and didn't have time to get back on:

You would rather this child suffer?

My personal opinion is that as we are an advanced society, it is our DUTY to accommodate everyone. If we make abortions illegal, they will still happen! They will only happen in un-sterile places, without trained surgeons, and it will end up killing mother AND child! That's twice the murder, pal.

I don't like the idea of a child dying, but it is a lot better than that child suffering, or both of them dying. There is no argument about it.

Oh, and KROC, the more I learn about you, the more I wonder why we ever fought at all!
Dear moderators: No.
 
L-1011-500
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:26 am

I am pro-life. I always have been. And I always will be. However, I was watching the TV one day, and I saw a surgery being performed which was radical and almost unheard of. Spina bifida, a disease in which the spinal cord is formed outside of the body, was detected on a baby inside a mother's womb. The child would surely die within a few months after birth, and I believe the mother may have been in danger...whatever, that's not the point. To correct this condition, doctors first made an incision in the mother, removed the uterus which contained the baby, and made an incision in the uterus and operated on the baby. The baby was not even in its third trimester yet. However, when the intial incision was made, the baby's hand moved and very gently grabbed the finger of the doctor who was operating on it.  Wow! No joke. Now, would you say to the baby, "Screw you. You weren't planned. I'll just give birth to you and smother you, or take RU-486, etc."

And may I add that the partial birth (also called late-term) abortion is one of the most macabre and disgusting procedures ever imaginable.  Angry This procedure involves having the doctor stick a scalpel/scissors/sharp object into the uterus, killing the baby by stabbing it an sucking out its brains, and giving birth to the dead baby. That is sick and disgusting. And the egotistical, "holier than thou," lying letch, Bill Clinton, who just left office, vouched for this. This has been practiced before, I hope it does not become common.

The only cases where abortion is necessary in my opinion occur when the life of the mother is endangered, or in the rare cases of rape and incest. Even in the latter cases, adoption can be chosen as a viable alternative, although the child may never know who its biological parents are (especially in cases of rape if the rapist is never apprehended).

Otherwise, for all of the women scrweing around carelessly, I have no pity for you. I believe premarital sex is wrong in the first place, and the only complete way to guarantee no unwanted pregnancies is by abstinence. Condoms fail, and the birth control pill fails. Even though it is rare, you could be that 3-5% of "the pill" users who get pregnant. Abortion is not birth control, nor should it be viewed as that. And if the mother chooses to have her child and is not financially able to provide for it, I can tell you that thousands of families across America would love to have a child to call their own via adoption. Also, many women who receive abortions do receive emotional scars and resent carrying out their abortions.

SMILE Big grin YOUR MOM WAS PRO-LIFE.

L-1011-500

 
KROC
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:29 am

We're Nuts, yet another agreement. Scary, scary In-Deed.
 
An-225
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:50 am

Well, I am pro-choice. Noone can tell a woman what to do - she is going to be judged by god, if it exists (I highly doubt that). And if you are against abortion - don't have one!
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
Guest

RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:05 am

Allow me to make my viewpoints clear:
1. Abortion is a woman's choice. I personally believe there are better alternatives (in some cases), but nobody can tell a woman what she can or can not do with, for the time being, a part of her own body.
2. Religious fanatics and other assorted a**holes who stand outside of abortion clinics picketing and screaming names like "killer", "murderer", "Satanist", and "whore" are just that- a**holes. They seem to think that women enjoy going to the clinic to have painful surgery done and that they take the decision to have an abortion lightly. Last year at the Catholic school I attended, there was an organized protest at an abortion clinic (which was supported by the school's administration, they even made an announcement encouraging people to come). I went along just to see what it was like (I was staked out across the street, not getting involved), and the second everyone was there and the clinic opened, they began screaming obscene things at the poor women who made the decision to have an abortion. Even the school's president was walking up to the women and calmly mentioning that they were going to hell.
3. People who bomb abortion clinics and/or kill the doctors working in them are psychotic, and should be dealt with as such. They shouldn't be praised by the religious community, as so many quietly are. When there was a highly publicized firebombing last year, of course my school didn't make any announcements regarding it, however when the school's president and several other teachers were discussing it at lunch at the table next to me, I heard the president clearly mention that they had done the right thing, and that Jesus would be proud! That man is the most corrupted, bigoted, slimy a**hole of an individual in the world!

If I find myself twenty-something and with a girlfriend, and I get her pregnant, I would of course encourage her to keep the child and I'd help her support it or put it up for adoption. If she chose to have an abortion, however, I would be behind her 100%, and I would even (if she wanted) be there while it took place for support. Not many people understand how hard and painful of a decision it is, and religious fanatics are just another problem in a situation full of them.
 
Ikarus
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RE: The Cost, The Dog (nature) And The Morality

Thu Mar 01, 2001 7:08 am

Someone made a funny comparison, of animals and abortion, claiming that it is not natural to abort, as dogs don't do it. Whoever it was: It is very natural indeed for some animals to carry out "abortions", eg the bird that cannot support more than 1-2 babies will throw out unhatched eggs, or even kill the hatched babies. Also, in nature there is natural selection killing off those kids that are not needed. So in some way, abortions are natural.

Now someone else complained about families living on welfare because of the number of kids they have. Sounds to me as if it would be cheaper for the government to pay for the abortion (and does it, really? Sounds odd to me - I'm not American) than for the government to pay for years of welfare and kids' support and (good god) even a kids' education. Really, abortion is by far the cheaper option. Just to be cynical.

So, what am I saying? The cost argument stinks. The nature argument stinks. If we were to live according to nature's laws, we would refuse penicillin. If we were to judge everything by its cost to the taxpayer, there would be no agricultural industry, no military (and all those unnecessary missiles - who wants to destroy the world 200 times? Isn't one set of world destruction enough???) and no education.

Morally, abortion is not wrong in my eyes, as it destroyes merely a few cells without any indication of personality, will, thought or self-awareness. It might just as well be illegal to kill of an amoebae or a bacteria.

And anyone who disapproves of abortion even if following rape or incest is a monster in my eyes.

(Just don't get me wrong, I'm not chanting
"make love not war
then abort you whore" or anything.
But to me abortion just seems the best option once things have gone seriously wrong)
 
DeltaRNOmd-80
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Mar 01, 2001 9:51 am

I agree with Matt D (what a surprise  Big grin )

If these girls that are going out and getting pregnant lack the responsibility to know the consequences of having sex and/or don't really care about the consequences (as they think they can just get an abortion), then tuff shit, you made the decision, now you can pay for it. And for those of you who say "would you rather have abortion done in a back alley where possibly the mother and child could be killed?", I say again, tuff shit, she made the decision, now she can live with it. The only times I think abortion is okay are in cases of rape/incest.
 
Accord
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:08 am


I say don't form an opinion until you have been there and had to help someone make this decision.

Everyone on this forum seems to be speaking in a "this is what I would do manner" quit this shit and share some experiences of "what you actually did"

Or remain silent.

Accord





 
Superfly
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:30 am

I read this post extensively.

Let me ask the conservatives or so called conservatives; do you believe that sex/love making or what ever you want to call it is solely for the married or the wealthy?

Let's just say there is a single lady who doesn’t see herself fit to be a mother at the time and has an abortion because she didn't want to stop working or use Gov. assistance. very conservative philosophy.
So she has an abortion.

Or you have a young lady who chooses to give life and not have an abortion. Because raising a child is a full-time job and doesn’t have the luxury of having a husband or the extended family to help her, she quits working and uses Gov. assistance.

Which of the two is worst/bad?

Both made a choise that would satisfy a conservative right!

Let's face it, when we just hit our 20s, women out number us. Of us men who are in are alive, some are in prison, homosexual or married. The pickens aren't so great for the ladies unless there in AlaskaBig grin

Sex happens and women have a right just we men do to have it when they want it.
Should we have polygamy so women aren’t having sex out of wedlock?
Hell one woman is expensive as it is !
Bring back the Concorde
 
VirginLover
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:40 am

OK, how many are you are women?  Smile I'm pro choice, but I don't believe that someone should have an abortion because they "made a mistake". If the child puts the mother in risk of her own life, if the child is going to die or have serious birth defects, or if the child is the cause of a rape, then the choice should be left up to the mother. I really don't think it's anyone's business but the mothers to decide what she wants to do. The mother has her own morals and beliefs, and that's whos beliefs is most important.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Abortion: A Womans Choice?

Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:44 am

I probably wouldn't be here if my mother didn't have an abortion since my parents only were to have two children. The fetus before me had very serious birth defects and the doctor reccomended an abortion. My mother and father are very strongly in favour of abortion, I am more neutral myself.
 
Superfly
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VirginLover

Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:52 am

These right-wingers want to make everything a woman does there business!
...Afterall, they want to be able to pull woman around by there hair back to there caves!
Bring back the Concorde

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